Adding nat gas line indoors, questions (CSST)

[QuickNick]

I searched & found many posts against using CSST line vs black pipe, but...Looking to add a vent free nat gas heater to a basement. Main reason is for emergency heat in winter as I lose power when a squirrel farts. I do have a small workshop in the basement I use in the winter also, so reliable heat would be nice. Last year I tapped in a temporary hook up to the existing gas lines during an emergency. I'd like to make something more permanent now that is safe.

I am basically running from one room of the basement (mechanical room) to the "larger" room, roughly a 20 foot run including all the bends. I will have to go through 1 wall. I have a convenient place to tap into the line at the clothes dryer connection that needs to be redone anyways. Its unfinished basement for the most part, so everything is accessible.

I was going to just run 90* bends & black pipe as the run is not complicated. Pricing was about $60-70 just for the straight runs (fittings extra). I found some yellow CSST tubing & ordered it, just to take a look (it can be returned!). I have never used this, always stuck with the reliable black pipe. The price & ease of intallation has me curious. Then I read more about bonding, grounding, bad installations, ect. ohh boy.. I do plan on using a gas safety shutoff valve prior to the CSST line and my current black pipe gas lines are grounded thru the fuse panel and outside via ground spike. I would clearly tap into this again just for safety.

Bad idea? The CSST would be a dream to route & install, but I kind of wonder about durability/safety. The look is going to be bad also, but if its run thru pvc pipe could I run it thru floor joists vs over them? I know it cant "rub" on anything.

Just curious. I'm clearly not a pro but have done enough to get in trouble, lol! Thanks for any thoughts!

 

[QuickNick]

CSST

 

[strutaeng]

I used CSST when I added gas to our kitchen for a new cooktop about 7 years ago. I did use black iron for the portion that dropped into the wall and a portion that is exposed roof truss structure (painted it white for the exposed portion). Then switched to CSST into attic.

No issues.

 

[QuickNick]

Thank you! That is sort of the installation I am doing, just in a basement. I really dont need to care about looks, but if I can hide it some thats a bonus.

 

[strutaeng]

Thank you! That is sort of the installation I am doing, just in a basement. I really dont need to care about looks, but if I can hide it some thats a bonus.

The concern with CSST is with things like you driving a screw through it during drywall installation. That's a valid concern in a wall. In an attic or basement not so much. Much easier to run in the attic in my case. Just make sure it's supported correctly and do the bonding requirements.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

CSST upgraded in our house for Propane to WH, Dryer & Stove.
Fittings are expensive, but as you stated running it is a dream.

Make sure you check for leaks and get the proper cutter for it.

All of mine is in an unfinished Michigan basement so no concerns with screws &/or nails.

 

[Sumboodie]

Vent free heater ok?

That seems like a great way to die of carbon monoxide poisoning.

 

[engineer2]

Do your local codes regulate them?
They do dump water vapor and CO2 into the room. Too much CO2 and you'll get a headache.
For safety they have an oxygen depletion cut-off sensor.
You should also install a CO detector in the room.
Probably OK for intermittent use, but I wouldn't leave it on all day.

 

[QuickNick]

Our code does say 20 Btu per hour per cubic foot for unvented appliances & I'm using good carbon monoxide detectors, plus I always open a window when using the heater so I'm good with the oxygen/CO. The heater itself does have a working O2 sensor also (tested it!). The open window also helps with the water vapor output as well. Its not a main heat source, just temporary & emergency, so I'm no overly concerned. In a old house I had a broken furnace vent pipe & almost had a "really bad day" so I've been very mindful of carbon monoxide.

 

[rlitman]

...The open window also helps with the water vapor output as well. Its not a main heat source, just temporary & emergency, so I'm no overly concerned...

With an ODS sensor, it's probably safe, but still not smart. If this is an insulated and reasonably airtight (before you open the window) space, a sealed combustion heater such as a Hot Dawg would be a much smarter choice. You lose so much more heat out the window than humidity, so with a ventless heater you need to really oversize it BTU wise to even heat the space because of the open window issue. With a sealed combustion unit, you close up that window and get something just large enough to heat the space.

edit: Ventless heaters are made for uninsulated and poorly sealed spaces such as pole barns.

 

[Walkers]

A ventless heater in the basement is a bad idea for many reasons. Just the air quality issue should be enough to turn you off, but the amount of water that is going to condense on the walls will be one of the reasons that you will only use this once.
You would be vastly better off investing in power generation instead.

 

[PCustoms]

Do your local codes regulate them?
They do dump water vapor and CO2 into the room. Too much CO2 and you'll get a headache.
For safety they have an oxygen depletion cut-off sensor.
You should also install a CO detector in the room.
Probably OK for intermittent use, but I wouldn't leave it on all day.

Too much CO2 makes me burp....

Too much CO gives me a headache and makes me pass out.


I've got a vent free catalytic heater in the basement, puts out a ton of heat and is cheap. Also puts out a ton of moisture, which is a pain in the ***. I don't run it very long, just to quickly catch-up if I opened the garage door.

 

[thammel]

I have csst run from my basement to the garage for the reznor heater. Before drywall, I made sure that any csst that would be hidden behind drywall was changed over to black pipe. I did the retrofit....no big deal. This is carrying propane.

 

[Jackfre]

There are millions of vent free heaters operating safely and effectively in the US. You seem to be on top of the issues and understand how to handle the heater in the space. A couple things to consider. The saw dust may fool your CO detector. Also, in a wood shop you will want to clean the heater regularly as the saw dust will burn off. I would not use a blue flame heater but an infra-red. Empire makes a good heater. The Rinnai 510 and 824 fan convectors are the flag-ships in this category, but pricey

 

[HoosierBuddy]

If you've searched, you've probably seen my posts arguing against using CSST many times.

The big issue with the original deployment of CSST was houses were burning down at a (fire) alarming rate in situations where lightning would strike the house, energize the csst, heat the thin-walled stainless to it's melting temperature, melt it, cause a gas leak and the heated end of the stainless (melts about 2600 degrees) would light off the leaking natural gas (ignition temperature = 900 degrees F).

Adding fuel to the fire (literally) was the common practice of running CSST at 2 PSIg rather than 0.25 PSIg because the CSST was expensive and to save money installers would undersize the tubing and have the gas company bump the delivery pressure.

OK...so that's when the CSST people came out and said, "We can make our product safe if we add bonding requirements."

My big issue with this (which is sort-of tangentially part of my job which I won't go into here for anonymity-sake) is two fold:

1. Back in Chapter 1 of our story, these CSST manufacturers are the people that said their product was safe and sold it to thousands of home-builders. Frankly, I take any "fix" they come up with to safety issues with a large chunk of salt.

2. These same manufactures sell their products to anyone and everyone to DIY their own gas lines without as much as "Oh BTW...you better know what you're doing" and on the backside publish large manuals (available in pdf form) that are basically the training program you must go through to be "certified" to install CSST. The national fuel code says if you haven't been trained by the manufacturer prior to performing a CSST installation, then your work does not meet fuel code...even if you've somehow done everything right. So basically the people that caused the original Chapter 1 issue have now added standards that "if not met" they will tell you means your intallation isn't safe" (TO THE OP....your current grounding won't help you one bit here...pay attention) if you don't follow all their bonding rules and your house burns down, they are just going to say "You did it wrong. Your installation did not meet our requirements....NOT OUR FAULT).

If the OP has the ability to run black pipe and the clearance to do so....the question becomes "Why wouldn't you do this with black pipe?" Because CSST might work, probably won't burn down your house and is a lot easier to install"?

If that's the reason....not good enough for me. If you do go that route....download the pdf installation manual, read and understand it, follow it to the letter and document you did so. That way if there is an issue going forward, you will have the evidence you need to show you did everything right.

Also...I have 2 backup ventless heaters in my house, and they've saved my bacon a couple of times during power outages in the past....but none in the basement where cold walls might cause some condensation.

Recently (a couple of years ago) I installed an inexpensive single-circuit transfer switch at my furnace that allows me to power both my furnace and the vent motor on my ventless water heater with a small camping generator by running an extension cord through a window to the transfer switch. They've gone up to $109. A kludgy solution for sure, but a viable way to get your NG or propane furnace up and running if your power is out....then you won't need the ventless heater.

https://www.northerntool.com/products/reliance-furnace-generator-transfer-switch-single-circuit-model-tf151-100023

And here's the $340 camping generator I power it with. I haven't needed this yet for an actual outage, but I have hooked it up and run the furnace and water heater off it and it works fine. I keep it fueled up with some stabil in it. It's also super handy for running corded power tools for yard projects rather than running an extension cord. Probably be nice for camping too....but I'm more of a "Comfort Suites" guy and not as much of a "stay in a tent" guy.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00SMNLF4M/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Phil

 

[QuickNick]

Thanks HoosierBuddy! The link for the transfer switch did not work but I think this is the one- https://www.northerntool.com/produc...sfer-switch-single-circuit-model-tf151-100023
I'm taking a road trip to Northern tool soon so thats going to be on my list, lol. I do not have a generator but have seen ways to safely use a generator (like with the switch) without powering the whole house/using a main transformer switch. Need to research more but that seems like a better solution. The heater I spoke of, I used it for main heat for 2 years in a smaller house I had with a bad chimney & saved it, figured it would be a good garage heater but there it sits.

I do have the CSST lines all finished up, tested & working, but, I dont know. I dont get a "warm fuzzy feeling" (bad pun!) about them. I got quality lines with brass ends, rubber washers, ect, but feeling black pipe is a better option. Along with the "who knows" insurance rules, code, ect.. I did also need to replace some old screw type shut off valves, so I can redo the piping if needed, which I think I might for minor use.

Thanks for all the help everyone!