Adding Subpanel

[1FordTech1]

Sorry if this is redundant, I havent posted here in a long time.

I recently purchased an old 1950s home and have upgraded most of the electrical. In the garage the previous owner had a 4 wire Kiln outlet installed with 6/3 with ground wire to the main panel on a 60 amp two pole circuit breaker. I had no need for a kiln so I rewired all the garage circuits with updated wire and GFCI and also use it for the forced gas furnace blower. I wired them all to a 120/240 100 amp subpanel and used the wire from the kiln circuit to power up the subpanel.

Since all circuits in this panel are 120 and I dont plan to ever have a 240v device in the garage, would it be ok to use two single pole 60amp circuit breakers in place of the two pole circuit breaker at the main? Any reason it would be a bad idea?

 

[sberry]

A 2 pole is 2 breakers hooked together. I don't think anyone even makes a single 60. It's all hooked up for free now.

 

[1FordTech1]

Actually I have a couple new single 60s.

Its a Siemans 200 amp panel. These are Q type

 

[Falcon67]

Yea, IMHO that is a bad idea. Any chance for you to leave half the feed energized is a bad idea. Also, even 120V device loads should be balanced on a 240V line, it's just good practice.

 

[1FordTech1]

Ok thanks, I have both types avaliable.

I appreciate your responses.

 

[Bolson32]

What are you going to run on 120v 60 amp circuits?

 

[1FordTech1]

Im currently only running 3 circuits to the subpanel. One is the furnace. One is the lighting for the garage, outside security light, and the attic plus a large ceiling fan in the living room tied to that circuit, and one is for 5 garage wall outlets and the garage door opener. They are all wired with 12ga wiring but the lighting circuit is only protected with a 15amp breaker. The other two are 20amp protected. All outlets have their own GFCI outlet except the garage door opener outlet which is a dedicated single outlet in the cieling. I have 3 spaces left for future use. All my lighting has been changed to LED except for the security light which is a 100 watt Mercury Vapor lamp.

In my garage I only have portable tools, no major loads like table saws or other such equipment.

 

[1FordTech1]

 

[Bert_]

Looks great, 6 spaces is a little limiting but I'm sure it will work fine for your needs.
+1 on the mercury vapor, I'm sure others will say they are not efficient, but they're really not bad and good lamps will probably outlast an LED.

 

[1FordTech1]

Looks great, 6 spaces is a little limiting but I'm sure it will work fine for your needs.
+1 on the mercury vapor, I'm sure others will say they are not efficient, but they're really not bad and good lamps will probably outlast an LED.

Thanks Bert. I agree about the Mercury Vapor. I have 3 on the property. I considered upgrading to LED using the same housings and bypassing the transformers but the bulbs rated similar in output were very expensive and I have no reference yet to their durability. Ive had some Merc vapor bulbs running for over 20 years in the past.

 

[Stuff]

To address the original question: When using circuit breakers current code requires both hot conductors to be disconnected simultaneously.

 

[1FordTech1]

To address the original question: When using circuit breakers current code requires both hot conductors to be disconnected simultaneously.

OK thanks, Ill leave it that way then.

John

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I may have missed it but is this an attached or detached garage?

And yes since youre feeding the panel with a MWBC 120v/240v, you must use a double pole breaker.

 

[1FordTech1]

I may have missed it but is this an attached or detached garage?

And yes since youre feeding the panel with a MWBC 120v/240v, you must use a double pole breaker.

Yes, attached garage and yes I am using a double pole circuit breaker.

 

[1FordTech1]

A year ago this was the primary subpanel for the whole house. The 200amp panel only had 220v circuits in it for Range, Dryer, AC, Kiln and a 100 amp feeder to this subpanel and 2 120v circuits to the addon den. All the appliance 220v circuits were removed and gas appliances installed. This house is 65 years old.

 

[Stuff]

What's up with the green handled breaker across from your 60amp feed? Looks too old to be in this panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Looks like you have a copper bussed siemens panel but at least one mismatched breaker. As pointed out above its green handled, which means its a Bryant. Those are not listed for use in a siemens panel. Need to replace it.

Can you take a hi resolution pic of the panel like the one above and post it so we can see the other breakers in the panel.

 

[1FordTech1]

What's up with the green handled breaker across from your 60amp feed? Looks too old to be in this panel.

The green handled one is a 30amp to the AC

 

[1FordTech1]

Looks like you have a copper bussed siemens panel but at least one mismatched breaker. As pointed out above its green handled, which means its a Bryant. Those are not listed for use in a siemens panel. Need to replace it.

Can you take a hi resolution pic of the panel like the one above and post it so we can see the other breakers in the panel.

Ill see if I have one already and post it.

 

[1FordTech1]

 

[1FordTech1]

That repost is full resolution so you can zoom up on it.
I have another 30amp breaker I can use for the AC if that one is not supposed to be there. It was installed I presume by Sears when they did the AC system 12 years ago.

 

[Stuff]

Why does it look like the connection between the left and right neutral bars is missing? Assume this is the main disconnect since bonding screw installed.

 

[1FordTech1]

It is the main disconnect. I have not removed anything bonding the neutral or ground bars. It is setup as I recieved the home other than the addition of a #4 ground to the ground rod and adding circuits from what was the original subpanel and new circuits to update the kitchen and other circuits.

 

[1FordTech1]

Here is the label on the panel

 

[Norcal]

Looks like you have a copper bussed siemens panel but at least one mismatched breaker. As pointed out above its green handled, which means its a Zinsco II. Those are not listed for use in a siemens panel. Need to replace it.

Can you take a hi resolution pic of the panel like the one above and post it so we can see the other breakers in the panel.

Fixed it for you

 

[1FordTech1]

So that breaker for the AC should definitely be replaced?

 

[1FordTech1]

So it does appear that the strap has been removed from the main. Can I just make a strap out of #4 and jumper the neutral bars together to make it right?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The green handled one is a 30amp to the AC

That repost is full resolution so you can zoom up on it.
I have another 30amp breaker I can use for the AC if that one is not supposed to be there. It was installed I presume by Sears when they did the AC system 12 years ago.

Unfortunately, I still cant make out the labels on all the breakers. Just make sure every breaker is listed for use on that panel label.

Yes that breaker should be replaced with a listed siemens breaker. It looks like Most if not all of your other breakers are Siemens QP.

Shame on sears IF they were the ones who installed that breaker.

Fixed it for you

How did I know you would do that. LMAO thx for the laugh.

So that breaker for the AC should definitely be replaced?

yes. see above.

So it does appear that the strap has been removed from the main. Can I just make a strap out of #4 and jumper the neutral bars together to make it right?

Thats not good. And is potentially hazardous. I must say thats the first Ive ever seen that done before.

Is the right bar bonded to the enclosure in any manner? If not then you do not have a pathway for ground fault current to enable breakers to clear faults.

If you have a DMM, ohm the right bar to the enclosure.

I cant tell if there is any bonding screws on either bar.

This needs to be fixed if either or both are not bonded properly.

And I wouldnt just make anything for the strap. I would see if you can order a replacement strap.

 

[1FordTech1]

Thanks. Yes the rest of them are Siemens QP. I looked in the garage and have two new QP double pole 30amp so I will replace that for sure.

I have been searching and could not find a replacement strap, just bars. There is also an LKB1 kit but looking at it doesnt look like it would attach to the left bar. The right bar appears grounded through the screw at the top but I will ohm it all out tommorrow. That would be shocking to know none of it has been bonded all this time.
I know this place was dangerously wired when I purchased it. It was a Fannie Mae repo and they dont inspect or guarantee ANYTHING.

For example nearly the entire kitchen was wired on one 15 amp circuit, all wall sockets, two ceiling fans with lights, garbage disposal. In addition the garage lights, garage door opener and the furnace were also wired into that same single 15amp circuit breaker. And the city inspector approved the furnace installation that way.
I completely rewired everything so it has now at least 12 new additional circuits and 40 individual GFCI throughout the house. Some overkill there but Im trying to make this a safe home to retire in.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ok so right bar is hopefully bonded.

What about the left bar?

 

[Stuff]

It's not legal and needs fixed but probably working OK. The meter can has the neutral bonded to the box and then you have metal conduit to the panel.

 

[1FordTech1]

I dont see that (left bar bonded) in the pics, which is why I suggested I make a new bar to bond them together.

 

[1FordTech1]

Ill work on getting that fixed then. Thanks for the help everyone. Been chipping at this for a couple years now.

 

[Stuff]

While we are analyzing this to death:

1. Why did you add the #4 ground (GEC)? Is there not one already in the PVC going to the meter?
2. Any idea what the white wire going back to the meter is for?
3. Conduit feeding garage should be secured within 3' of box - can't tell from picture.
4. NM cable shouldn't be used in conduit outside as is considered wet location.

 

[1FordTech1]

While we are analyzing this to death:

1. Why did you add the #4 ground (GEC)? Is there not one already in the PVC going to the meter?
2. Any idea what the white wire going back to the meter is for?
3. Conduit feeding garage should be secured within 3' of box - can't tell from picture.

It was recommended by an electrician that I had consulted before doing any of the work to add the ground. I presumed that the small gauge ground being used up to the meter was the reason. He was just a friend of a friend

I dont know about the white wire except that the utility just installed one of those smart meters and it may be related to that.

Ill look at the conduit security tomorrow in the daylight

 

[wyliesdiesels]

While we are analyzing this to death:

1. Why did you add the #4 ground (GEC)? Is there not one already in the PVC going to the meter?
2. Any idea what the white wire going back to the meter is for?
3. Conduit feeding garage should be secured within 3' of box - can't tell from picture.
4. NM cable shouldn't be used in conduit outside as is considered wet location.

Some PoCos do not allow GECs in meter cans.

Now that you mentioned it, Im curious about that white wire as well.

Smart meters dont need any additional wiring.

 

[1FordTech1]

Just changed that double 30amp to the AC. Im very glad you pointed it out. It is a Westinghouse Type BR230 and this is what I found. I had never removed it before.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yeah theyre garbage. Doesnt surprise me.

Thats why norcal jokingly said zinsco II above.

 

[1FordTech1]

Thanks Wylie. I never even realized it wasnt a Siemens breaker.
So I have replaced that breaker and have installed my home made bonding bar across the bottom of each bar. Let me know if you think its a bad idea or placement.
Prior to adding it I did a continuity test from the green screw on the Neutral bar and the neutral bar itself in multiple places in the cabinet and it had .003 ohms continuity. It also showed the same on the left side bar so something was giving some continuity to both sides. I also checked for voltage and it was negligible, maybe .o4 volts. I then added the bonding bar across both sides as shown.

 

[1FordTech1]

I know it isnt neat because I havent had a lot of spare time but Ive tweaked things since the last post, hopefully for the better. I separated all the shared neutrals in the house and pulled new circuits where needed to put all the bedrooms on their own circuits, all grounded, all receptacles are GFCI except the refrigerator, freezer, and microwave. I put AFCI breakers on all circuits and dual function on those circuits I couldnt put GFCI receptacles. The garage subpanel is all AFCI protected in the panel and gfci at the receptacles and the furnace now has its own disconnect at the furnace plus dual function breaker in the garage panel. I pulled a new circuit for the gas range to the garage sub panel and put it on a GFCI breaker because it wont accept AFCI, I suppose because the oven ignitor appears to not be happy with it. It tripped a couple times baking a turkey for 4 hours, but doesnt trip on a GFCI breaker for some reason. I also added a whole house type 2 surge protector breaker and run kitchen lights and bathroom lights from it. Also upgraded A/C breaker to two pole GFCI

I will be retiring from Ford in about a week and will have time to clean up the wire routing in the panel then. Its taken me a few years spare time to get here... LOL