Adding venting to older pole barn

[Cb-man]

hello all. My names Brian. I am coming here from nastyZ28 Forum.
Alot of guys over there say how great this site is and i agree. I have been reading through lots of posts here.
I am getting ready to insulate and heat an older pole barn so i have signed up here for some help and advice.
So i have an older pole barn that really has no eave/soffit vents or ridge vents. Its pretty crude built.
I want to insulate and add a ceiling. My concern is condesation in the attic after insulating.
I plan on adding some kind of full ridge vent. Then i need some eave venting or add gable vents. The idea of adding gable vents makes my nervous because i dont know how to seal them properly with the ribs in the metal siding.
I will attach pics. Is there a way i can build in some eave vents?
the metal roof just comes down the the sides of the barn and there is an ai gap between the rood and the siding that is covered by the white trim/flashing as seen in the pictures.

any ideas on what to do with this old barn before i start finishing it would be a big help.
i also thought about attic fans in the ceiling.

 

[Cb-man]

 

[Cb-man]

Anyone?
Any suggestions for the eaves?
No over hang but it appears air can get into the attic space will that be enough to vent the attic space if I add a ridge vent?

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

Aside from your concrete pad, my pole barn was almost identical to yours before I finished the interior. I put 5/8 sheetrock, 6 mil. poly, and a bunch of insulation on the ceiling. I too had no venting but I was comfortable with the amount of daylight I could see when I was up in my newly created attic space that I didn't bother adding any additional vents. To my surprise, I also no longer have any condensation under the roof sheathing.

 

[Cb-man]

Thanks for the reply! So you don't have a ridge vent?
My rafters are 4ft on center and built with 2x4's. They don't seem strong enough to support much ceiling load. I was planning on using 3/4in foil backed foam board on the ceiling.

 

[Rookie2]

That looks like an older Morton building. I have one about 15 years now , The metal roofs all RAIN inside ! once the sun hits that metal roof in the morning it rains . either spray insulate the roof metal inside or tear it off and install a shingled roof.

 

[Hogger]

Just ad vents to the gable ends. One can even put a thermostatically controlled fan in one end. I have 16x16 vents in my pole barn and no condensation.

 

[Cb-man]

Adding the concrete with a vapor barrier really almost stopped the condensation on the roof but I will really see how much in the fall when we get some cołd nights and warm days.
I'm worried about adding gable vents and not being able to seal around them properly.
How do you do that?
I live in SE Michigan.
I think I might just add a full ridge vent.

 

[Dale Leeds]

I think it depends on how tight your building is. My metal garage has two roll up doors and there is a gap at the top of them. In the winters, I had no problems with condensation on the metal ceiling until I sealed over the doors with OSB. I have insulation stuffed in all of the grooves on the inside at the edge of the metal roof. So, that made it pretty air tight. Now in the winters, when the roof has frost or snow on it, when the sun comes out, the metal ceiling will drip water on my car. I have to cover it with a plastic tarp to keep the water off of it. So, I believe if your building is air tight, the metal roof will collect condensation and drip.

 

[Cb-man]

Dale- so you have insulated and covered your walls but do not have and ceiling? Just open to the rafters?

My barn has no overhangs but there is day light at the eaves.
I'm hoping with a ridge vent and this air gap I will get some air flow in the attic space. I have also thought about installing attic fans in the ceiling.

Thanks for the replies. Anymore in site on what to do would be great.
Like how to properly install a gable vent in ribbed siding
Or possible adding on some eave venting somehow.

I just don't want to insulate and put a ceiling up to have the roof sweat and drip on the insulation/ceiling

 

[Pole Barn Guru]

You asked for advice, so here it is….your old building has some challenges when it comes to attempting to heat. The ventilation issue is just one of many. The building has no insulated vapor barrier under the roof steel to prevent condensation, which you have touched upon. Two other factors, either of which could be deal breakers – the building has horizontal sliding doors, which are impossible to properly insulate and seal, without them becoming permanently affixed, and the roof trusses are probably not designed to support the weight of a ceiling.

With all of this said, you have two really good solutions – the least expensive is to just put up another new pole building, designed properly to be climate controlled, using your existing building for cold storage. The other – knock this building to the ground and rebuild at the same location.

Assuming you may not be interested in either of these, and want to pour lots of money into a building you refer to as “crude built”, I will give you some solutions.

Toughest first – the trusses. As they are prefabricated wood roof trusses, there should be a manufacturers stamp on every truss. The design loadings might be stamped on the trusses (due to the age of your building the “might” is the operative word). With this information and the location of your building, I could probably give you an idea as to adequacy. If the truss manufacturer’s name can be found – see if they are still in business. If so, they can determine adequacy for you (for a small fee) and get an engineered repair if they are not adequate. If those fail, hire a registered engineer to do an evaluation for you.

Condensation under the roof steel…as the steel is nailed on, it can not be removed and an insulated vapor barrier (something like A1V reflective insulation available from www.buyreflectiveinsulation.com) added. The best solution is probably going to be to spray foam insulate the underside of the roof steel.

Adding a ceiling – with the trusses verified for the ability to take the load (and correctively upgraded if needed), 2x4 ceiling joists can be placed between the bottom chords every two feet, with LU24 or similar joist hangers at each end.
Screw on 5/8” Type X gypsum board to the underside of the ceiling joists and trusses (it won’t span four feet, so don’t even attempt to). Leave an attic access hole somewhere close to the center, so insulators can blow in the desired thickness of insulation. Do NOT place a vapor barrier between the ceiling drywall and the framing above.

Ventilation – the new codes do not allow for gable vents to be mixed with eave and ridge vents, it is one or the other. Take the square footage of the footprint of your building, and divide by 300. This gives the net square inches of ventilating area which must be provided in each gable end of the attic. Hansen Pole Buildings has vinyl gable vents, in a myriad of colors, with snap rings. A hole is cut in the steel (using the snap ring as a template), the vent is pushed through from the inside, and the snap ring is then pushed on from the outside (this is a two person job).

Now the roof is taken care of, the walls are the next challenge. Remove the sliding doors and frame the openings down in size to fit insulated steel sectional overhead doors. You may be able to salvage the steel off the sliding doors, and if done carefully, use the pieces to fill in the gaps.

Again, the nailed on wall steel becomes a limiting factor….spray foam for the walls is probably the best solution. Keep in mind, you will need to put either drywall or a steel liner panel on the inside of the columns, as Code does not allow spray foam to be left exposed to heated areas.

Good luck – and let me know what choice you make and how it turns out.

 

[Pole Barn Guru]

Thanks for the reply! So you don't have a ridge vent?
My rafters are 4ft on center and built with 2x4's. They don't seem strong enough to support much ceiling load. I was planning on using 3/4in foil backed foam board on the ceiling.

If you are planning on using the 3/4" foil foam board only, it has several issues. Very low R value; it will not span four feet without sagging; the seams should be taped to prevent warm moist air from escaping into the attic; and you may have some condensation on the underside. Probably not the best solution.

 

[Cb-man]

Ok I know I'm posting alot but just trying to get a good path forward.
So my barn has no overhang or eave soffit vent.
I'm just trying to figure out how to get some eave venting.
So here are some pictures of inside the barn of 2x4's between each rafter that appear to be there only to close the gap and keep birds out.
I was thinking I could remove these 2x4's and put screens in. These 2x4's are above the ceiling line so I would get air in from the eaves up to the ridge vent.

What do you think?

 

[Cb-man]

One more time

 

[jameswood]

Why vent it?

I have a 42x72 radiant tube heated pole barn in Nebraska with no vents and no condensation problems (going on 5yrs). Built my ceiling system from the top chord down using EPS and finished with white scrim attached to bottom of top chord. Mine is a very tight structure.

 

[Cb-man]

That's good to hear. I live in Michigan where we get big changes in temps through the day. Cold at night warm during the day and humid.
It's an older barn so I am thinking just vent it the best I can the put up some 3/4 in foil backed foam on the ceiling and hope it doesn't sweat

 

[Jbullfrog]

The key to stopping the sweating is keeping the hot from the cold. You need a vapor barrier on the warm side of the insulation. I have 6mill plastic with taped seams under my rafters against the ceiling steel. There is 13" of blown insulation above it. I had no problem with sweating in the building before the liner and don't since I lined it either. I only have half of an 88' building lined with a wall in the middle and the rafters open to the cold side.

 

[Clik]

I've had two pole barns built in the last few years one 40X80 and one 48X80. The first one I had a ridge vent installed when built. I wasn't happy with. I had a bare metal car that I was working on rust up because fine powdered snow was blowing in the ridge vent. No more ridge vents for me. You may want to install a louvered fan at each end. If I had been able to fit it into my time line I would have installed radiant heat in the floor. There's no way to heat or cool the large volume of air in a large pole barn efficiently without pretty much building a building within the building. $$$$$$$. I've been using a homemade woodstove/waste oil burner just to knock the chill of and get the hands unnumbed.

 

[jameswood]

That's good to hear. I live in Michigan where we get big changes in temps through the day. Cold at night warm during the day and humid.
It's an older barn so I am thinking just vent it the best I can the put up some 3/4 in foil backed foam on the ceiling and hope it doesn't sweat

You mean just attaching to bottom of roof purlins? Or bottom chord of truss?

 

[jameswood]

I've had two pole barns built in the last few years one 40X80 and one 48X80. The first one I had a ridge vent installed when built. I wasn't happy with. I had a bare metal car that I was working on rust up because fine powdered snow was blowing in the ridge vent. No more ridge vents for me. You may want to install a louvered fan at each end. If I had been able to fit it into my time line I would have installed radiant heat in the floor. There's no way to heat or cool the large volume of air in a large pole barn efficiently without pretty much building a building within the building. $$$$$$$. I've been using a homemade woodstove/waste oil burner just to knock the chill of and get the hands unnumbed.

Disaggree. Had a forced air for a few years and it heated fine, but floor was still 45 degree in winter (warm air fighting cold floor *****). After changing to 50 ft IR tube heater floor now gets 20-30 degree warmer and heats fine and actually saves me money (compared to FA).

Key is Insulation and a tight enclosure and a warm floor.

Last shop I installed in floor heat and loved it but still requires another heat source for quick warm ups.

Far as cooling, I used a radiant barrier above in the insulation design and shop follows whatever the slab is-100 degree outside-70-75 inside.

 

[jameswood]

I've had two pole barns built in the last few years one 40X80 and one 48X80. The first one I had a ridge vent installed when built. I wasn't happy with. I had a bare metal car that I was working on rust up because fine powdered snow was blowing in the ridge vent. No more ridge vents for me. You may want to install a louvered fan at each end. If I had been able to fit it into my time line I would have installed radiant heat in the floor. There's no way to heat or cool the large volume of air in a large pole barn efficiently without pretty much building a building within the building. $$$$$$$. I've been using a homemade woodstove/waste oil burner just to knock the chill of and get the hands unnumbed.

That's good to hear. I live in Michigan where we get big changes in temps through the day. Cold at night warm during the day and humid.
It's an older barn so I am thinking just vent it the best I can the put up some 3/4 in foil backed foam on the ceiling and hope it doesn't sweat

Here is one possible idea: Take that 2x4 out and re install it flat or whatever needed for eave screen. Then install 2x2 on either side of purlin and one down center and attach EPS to that, thus creating your ventillation between hot/cold and a vent path to ridge.

Frame a triangle box at ridge for venting at ends.

If ya get condensation then add more EPS and seal long edges better.

If it would condensate it will go toward eave and not saturate a flat ceiling.

 

[Cb-man]

Thanks for all the replies. It's been a big help.
My plan was to build a new barn or garage but I got sticker shock at the quotes.
The price of concrete for a stick built is crazy with the footings.
I can't afford it until I pay my truck off.
I'm just trying to figure out how I can fix this shop up to work on my camaro in the winter. I know it's not going to be proper but it sounds like it can be done.
I do plan on removing the sliding doors and adding a man door and insulated over head door.

What is EPS?

I have heard of people using the foil backed foam board across rafters spaced 4 ft apart. I will just have to use thicker than 3/4 in.
I am talking attaching it to the bottom cord as a ceiling not putting it against the bottom of the roof.

All tough choices as I don't want to waste money but I want a place to work this winter.


I like the idea of IR tube heaters to keep the floors warmer.

 

[LB-1911]

What is EPS?

EPS Foam (Expanded Polystyrene)
http://www.achfoam.com/What-is-EPS.aspx


XPS FOAM (extruded polystyrene)
http://building.dow.com/na/en/products/insulation/rigidfoam.htm
http://building.dow.com/search.aspx...sitesearch=building.dow.com/na&sa.x=12&sa.y=6

 

[jameswood]

Thanks for all the replies. It's been a big help.
My plan was to build a new barn or garage but I got sticker shock at the quotes.
The price of concrete for a stick built is crazy with the footings.
I can't afford it until I pay my truck off.
I'm just trying to figure out how I can fix this shop up to work on my camaro in the winter. I know it's not going to be proper but it sounds like it can be done.
I do plan on removing the sliding doors and adding a man door and insulated over head door.

What is EPS?

I have heard of people using the foil backed foam board across rafters spaced 4 ft apart. I will just have to use thicker than 3/4 in.
I am talking attaching it to the bottom cord as a ceiling not putting it against the bottom of the roof.

All tough choices as I don't want to waste money but I want a place to work this winter.


I like the idea of IR tube heaters to keep the floors warmer.

Just remember majority of heat loss is UP not out thru side walls

EPS is the white stuff and is expanded. The other are xps or extruded and is pink or blue-just do a search here or google. I use the white type (EPS) because it's water vapor "permeable" meaning does not act like a vapor barrier like the pink or blue.

In the winter that cold floor is a great big refrigerator working against the heating and (IMO) makes a pole building very undesirable to work in. Cold floor makes a major temp difference in the building between the upper area and the lower, just the reverse of what's desirable-to have that heat evenly distributed but especially keeping it down low and not rising up and out of the building. Only way I know to solve it is with in floor or radiant tube heating (or major solar IR gain) and good insulation r value above.

PBGuru's advice was good and re keeping that heat from meeting the cold bottom of roof and sweating. Might try add 1 1/2 eps between purlins against the roof then make an air space (as per last post) using more eps sheets. Could then add more eps incrementally as money allows.

Just my .02cents...

ps: I only mention this method of insulation assuming your truss'es cant carry a ceiling load. If they can carry it, then just rocking and adding fiberglass is much cheaper as long as it's well ventillated.

 

[Rookie2]

BTW Wind will infiltrate thru the metal siding overlap joints, I used house wrap under my siding. I would have the whole building spray foamed if i had it to do over. I wasted a lot of money and time and there is no easy solution once you attempt to insulate a building that wasn't built to be closed in.

 

[cyamaha2007]

BTW Wind will infiltrate thru the metal siding overlap joints, I used house wrap under my siding. I would have the whole building spray foamed if i had it to do over. I wasted a lot of money and time and there is no easy solution once you attempt to insulate a building that wasn't built to be closed in.

Thats the truth.

 

[Cb-man]

Well....
Thinking and thinking....
I can't afford another loan for a garage right now. Probably not until next year sometime when my truck is paid off. I would really love to build a new garage but I'm not sure when it will happen. And I don't want to waste my money but I want a space to work.
So since this is all I can afford at the moment.

I'm going to try and finish this pole barn.
This means I will have to restore my old wood barn and add on a lean too for my boat.

So I have heard you can rent stuff to do spray foam yourself.
I might do that on the walls.
I heard some say it won't work for sealing the ceiling because you can't seal under the truss and condensation will collect there.
So I will seal up the walls the best I can
Then I will open up the eaves and install a ridge vent.
I will then install 1.5in reflective foam board on the ceiling and put some insulation above that. Then possible cover it with white plastic ridged panels.
Tape all seams to keep it as tigh as I can.
The use overheard radiant heat.

Then hopefully build another garage in the future and reuse some of the materials.

 

[Clik]

I guess I didn't make my post very clear. I'm all for a radiant floor or radiant tube heat and was trying tp point out that it's very expensive trying to heat the large volume of air in a leaky (by nature) pole barn only to lose every bit of it as soon as you slide the door open.

 

[Cb-man]

Well I'm hoping to seal it up the best I can and I plan on adding an overhead garage door and man door.
I would never think of trying to heat it with the sliding barn doors on it.

I know it's not the best solution.

I guess my other option is finish off my small 20x22 attached garage and move ever thing I can into the pole barn for more space then work in the garage until I can afford a real shop.
Small working quarters but it would be easier to finish and heat. And save me money

 

[Cb-man]

So your saying there is no way to seal up my pole barn to heat it even with spray foam?

 

[jameswood]

So your saying there is no way to seal up my pole barn to heat it even with spray foam?

Please use the quote button or say "so everyone thinks it's hard..."

There isn't enough info provided for anything other than general advice here.

Making a pole building tight, well insulated and critter proof is challenging even under the best circumstances, but you have some extra challenges.

Like PBG mentioned that building was built not to be heated and likely (?) not meant to have a ceiling load.

Can it be done? Yes, just that it may/may not be feasible and to expectations. We are just pointing out the challenges so you become aware of them and avoid mistakes.

 

[Cb-man]

Sorry for singling you out.
I ultimately came here for advise on what to do.
I put concrete in that pole barn to get my equipment of dirt/stone so it wouldn't get exposed to ground moisture. I planned on paying my truck off then getting a loan to build a garage. Well when I used the money to pay my truck off for something else I started looking at the option of finishing this barn.
Many on another car forum I'm on said it can be done and to go for it. Save money over building a new one.
But the time and effort and money I will have in this barn just to get it flowing air and insulate just to be fighting a cold slab....

So thank you all for the info and discussion.
I believe I will stick to my original plan and just keep this barn for dry storage.
Hope I get my truck paid off and wait until next year to build.

I will just move all I can out of my attached garage into the pole barn.
Insulate the garage and install an electric heater to knock the chill off.

Thank you guys I do appreciate the help.

 

[blazentrout]

So your saying there is no way to seal up my pole barn to heat it even with spray foam?

Yes you can. Im out of the grand rapids area, so i have an idea of the weather/humidady you could be dealing with. My pole barn was built pre 1980. The work shop(32x40) looked like yours before i started. I still dont have soffet vents to this day. on mine each ridge on the steel acts as a vent, so i have plenty of air coming in and just have a end vent to let it out. when the wind blows you can feel it move in the attic.

All i have is r-30 in the ceiling that is over the 2x4 runners i put up to screw the 7/16 osb to. The walls all ready had 3/4" foam board on the stringers so i just added some R-25 unfaced batts and some stringers to the inside to hang some more 7/16. By what i tell the ribs on the steel sheeting for the walls was sealed using some sort of caulk to keep out insects. It heats quite well with my wood stove and stays cool in the summer.

The issue i have is if i dont open the garage door when it warms up in the spring/summer is every thing is cooler than the outside temp and i can get some condensation on things when it humid out.

To help with sealing the sliding door is to use the rubber edge garage trim on the inside of the opening so that it touches the sliding door when closed. i cant help you on the bottem of the door as i havent found a good way to seal it that wount freeze in place in the winter.
Good luck with you project.

 

[jameswood]

Sorry for singling you out.
I ultimately came here for advise on what to do.
I put concrete in that pole barn to get my equipment of dirt/stone so it wouldn't get exposed to ground moisture. I planned on paying my truck off then getting a loan to build a garage. Well when I used the money to pay my truck off for something else I started looking at the option of finishing this barn.
Many on another car forum I'm on said it can be done and to go for it. Save money over building a new one.
But the time and effort and money I will have in this barn just to get it flowing air and insulate just to be fighting a cold slab....

So thank you all for the info and discussion.
I believe I will stick to my original plan and just keep this barn for dry storage.
Hope I get my truck paid off and wait until next year to build.

I will just move all I can out of my attached garage into the pole barn.
Insulate the garage and install an electric heater to knock the chill off.

Thank you guys I do appreciate the help.

Hey, Didn't mean to sound put offish or anything so hope you didn't take it the wrong way.

Seems if you ask a dozen people..., kinda things.