Advice on Pole vs Galvanized (finished interior, climate controlled)

[malazan]

Background: want to build 60x40x14 garage and workspace. Live in 8a hardiness zone with 76% avg humidity, 44in annual rain in Chesapeake Bay region of Virginia. Building will store classic cars, shop tools, and be a 9-5 work area for my remote job. I want to finish the interior with a combo of corrugated metal and pine. I want metal ceiling with R-30 blow in and a r-19 fiber in walls. I plan to run two 18k Mr cool’s for 24x7 climate control. Not interested in spray foam.

Questions: multiple companies in the mid Atlantic area are saying each style of building is better for my intented use and I’m hoping those on here can lend any advice. Yes I have looked at this site for over a year on various pieces of the puzzle but I’m hoping to get a consolidated answer based on my climate, specific use, ability to best air seal, insulate, and put up interior walls. Which makes the most logical and financial sense? Ty all for your time!

 

[jack stand]

"Forever shop" or 10-15 year property then move on with no other improvements?
I have a inexpensive, glorified carport attitude that fits the above "move on" senario for the galvi tube buildings (right or wrong) and I believe it's probably the average opinion of a future buyer.
I would suggest at least pricing a conventional framed 16"oc building on a slab. This IMHO is considered as a permanent building in most people's minds and is much easier to properly insulate and finish the interior.
I've found that by the time you stud out a pole building (or a metal shed) your savings diminish or completely go away.
I'm not picking on these tube buildings and fully respect one's budget situation. They're still a zillion times better than no garage!

 

[malazan]

ty

"Forever shop" or 10-15 year property then move on with no other improvements?
I have a inexpensive, glorified carport attitude that fits the above "move on" senario for the galvi tube buildings (right or wrong) and I believe it's probably the average opinion of a future buyer.
I would suggest at least pricing a conventional framed 16"oc building on a slab. This IMHO is considered as a permanent building in most people's minds and is much easier to properly insulate and finish the interior.
I've found that by the time you stud out a pole building (or a metal shed) your savings diminish or completely go away.
I'm not picking on these tube buildings and fully respect one's budget situation. They're still a zillion times better than no garage!

this would be a forever shop. Bought this property specifically for staying put.

 

[reader2580]

I would actually suggest stick built if you want to have pine on the walls with full insulation and HVAC. A pole barn can require basically stick built walls between each pole to attach the pine too.

 

[AC-WC]

I've done both a Versatube 30X40X10 with perimeter foundation and conventional 2X6 at 24" OC same size.
Framing and panels-Initially the Versatube was less expensive but by the time I got to electrical and all the 'custom' things to make the Versatube more conventional I should have done the conventional or pole barn.

The Versatube when all was said and done was pushing $25k about 15 yrs ago. Electrical had to be done with conduit which was $5k by electrician.
Disadvantage to the Versatube was the condensation on the interior and electrical. I used a serious ridge vent and it still had condensation. This style is most difficult to do conventional insulation. You would have to do either foam board OR build interior studs for insulation. Spray foam is best for this application but the initial expense is painful and virtually no payback for our situation (hay and equipment storage).

Both buildings no insulation all steel siding and roofing.

The conventional has house wrap and some kind of flocking on the roof panels which I believe is eliminating the condensation. Since walls are 24" OC R19 will fit in the walls with ease. The conventional was all in at $19k last year, electrical I did myself because it wasn't in conduit so just materials (maybe $500).

Advantage to the Versatube is fire resistance. Stepdad burned the Versatube, lost everything inside. The frame was bent from the heat but was still standing after 5 yrs before it was replaced with the conventional.

 

[ericm]

I would actually suggest stick built if you want to have pine on the walls with full insulation and HVAC. A pole barn can require basically stick built walls between each pole to attach the pine too.

If you're ok with vertical boards you can nail them to internal girts like the type used when putting up liner panels. On my building they are 3' on center for the liner panels but you can have them done at any spacing.

One advantage of pole buildings vs stick built (besides materials and labor costs) is that there's a lot less wood that bridges the inside and outside of the walls. Wood is only about R1.4 per inch while fibreglass is about R3.7 per inch.

OTOH it'll be tough to insulate and finish the inside of a tube building. For sure you'll have to build a framework to support the inside wall and provide a space for insulation. And the foundation may cost more than that for a pole building as well. Some of the tube building people offer insulation and even finished insides but many of them seem to think that bubble wrap is insulation so I have my doubts.

Best bet would be to first talk to the planning dept that would issue permits to find out what the requirements are, do any of the things that need to happen next (if any) like geological surveys, then get some quotes from builders. When I got a quote for a tube building for a shop I was surprised at the high price and that was before covid.

 

[billconner]

I lean toward the post frame / pole barn type. I think it's more permanent than the versa tube (I assume that is what you mean by galvanized and not quonset hut). I'd say stick frame but at 14' they are not always simple, exceeding the HT limit of prescriptive codes. Post frame with book shelf girts and batts between them would work well for vertical pine interior.

 

[Hank11]

I would actually suggest stick built if you want to have pine on the walls with full insulation and HVAC. A pole barn can require basically stick built walls between each pole to attach the pine too.

This. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A fully finished out shop is gonna be nicer with conventional stick framing, and probably not cost more than either of the other kinds by the time you get to the end.

 

[kwb]

If you are finishing it out inside - stick is going to be just as cost effective as anything else.

Where the math gets a bit fun is what is it that you can DIY and what gets hired out.

I am anti-Tube building so for me that would be out. If you need someone to erect the shell and then take over from there you probably could get a Pole Building done with the fewest dollars out of pocket. You are going to basically stick build all the infill for insulation and framing to attach the interior wall finishes. If you want turn key completely finished and just write a check, your quality of work and longevity of the building are going to be most directly related to dollars if you properly vet out your contractors.
Speed, Quality, Price - pick two.

 

[ericm]

If you are finishing it out inside - stick is going to be just as cost effective as anything else.

I used to think that until I did more research on pole buildings.

I think it depends on what finishing means- if it's drywall then yea, you'd need to build framing in a pole building to support it. Metal panel liner doesn't need to be supported every 16-24" like drywall and can be on internal girts. That's quick and cheap to put up.

The sheet metal and boards the OP says they want to use would be closer to the liner panel than to sheet rock as far as the support it needs.

 

[malazan]

Ty all to the replies, to clarify on interior (pole vs stick) the pole barn walls do not require stick built frame out. They will attach interior metal/pine to the internal wall girts (2x4, 24 inch spacing), these same girts are also what hold wall insulation in place so I don’t see how pole barns would need same amount of framing as stick built. Regarding cost effectiveness, pole barn quote $107 (building, ceiling, finished interior, insulation. Stick built quote $150k (building only). Don’t see how to justify stick built but welcome further insight.

 

[AC-WC]

Ty all to the replies, to clarify on interior (pole vs stick) the pole barn walls do not require stick built frame out. They will attach interior metal/pine to the internal wall girts (2x4, 24 inch spacing), these same girts are also what hold wall insulation in place so I don’t see how pole barns would need same amount of framing as stick built. Regarding cost effectiveness, pole barn quote $107 (building, ceiling, finished interior, insulation. Stick built quote $150k (building only). Don’t see how to justify stick built but welcome further insight.

Well that settles it pole barn!
Make sure you get rat guard. It's a panel they put at the bottom to keep the vermin out. Works really well. Are you planning concrete floor (eventually)?

 

[ericm]

Don’t see how to justify stick built but welcome further insight.

There's likely further savings on the foundation.

 

[malazan]

Well that settles it pole barn!
Make sure you get rat guard. It's a panel they put at the bottom to keep the vermin out. Works really well. Are you planning concrete floor (eventually)?

Yes will be on 4 1/2 slab, 6 inch where car lifts mount, and 6 inch for future mezzanine. This would be same for stick built. Regarding rat guard and general sealing, should I look at sealing major seam/gaps with something like great stuff? I here back and forth on leaving gaps at bottom of metal for condensation but that doesn’t seem right if I’m finishing.

 

[malazan]

There's likely further savings on the foundation.

Both will be on concrete slab

 

[billconner]

Both will be on concrete slab

The minimum requirements for a slab for stick framing are greater than for a post frame. Post frame can usually be just uninsulated slab to edge (not a recommendation) where as the entire edge under stick framing needs to be thicker and wider and needs to be frost protected - either by extending below frost line or by insulation.

 

[malazan]

Makes sense ty for detail

 

[malazan]

The minimum requirements for a slab for stick framing are greater than for a post frame. Post frame can usually be just uninsulated slab to edge (not a recommendation) where as the entire edge under stick framing needs to be thicker and wider and needs to be frost protected - either by extending below frost line or by insulation.

Makes sense ty for detail

 

[AC-WC]

Yes will be on 4 1/2 slab, 6 inch where car lifts mount, and 6 inch for future mezzanine. This would be same for stick built. Regarding rat guard and general sealing, should I look at sealing major seam/gaps with something like great stuff? I here back and forth on leaving gaps at bottom of metal for condensation but that doesn’t seem right if I’m finishing.

For the lift area at 6" thick I would do a 4'X12' minimum and follow Bendpak concrete guidelines. Babysit the contractor when they do the rebar! If you want pics let me know.
Insulation-Definitely do vapor barrier underneath concrete. Would highly recommend doing a perimeter minimum 1" foam around periphery of concrete. What it does is give you a thermal break. IF you can justify the cost even a 1" foam insulation under the concrete would do wonders for efficiency. Obviously thicker is better for foam. In my home garage the floor is now my coldest area in the winter.
For the walls-you will need to do foam BEHIND the posts and under the steel panels. There will be a gap caused by the girts. That's the hardest part to insulate other than the corner posts. Probably cheaper to do the foam board vs spray cans of foam in these areas. With house wrap it will help reduce the amount of air flow caused by gaps between the steel panel overlaps and the corners.
You can do either caulk or spray foam cans at the top and bottoms of the walls. Your budget and how much physical room you have to get to hidden areas will tell you which to use.
I would make sure they put some kind of barrier at the bottom of the steel corner trim. That area is prime for cold/air flow.
For ceiling I would recommend spray cellulose once the ceiling panels are up. Vermin resistant and ease of application. Below is mom's replacement barn. Last year on the windiest coldest day the only air flow was in the corners and the gaps at the light to steel panels. If you enlarge pic 1 and look at the RH corner you can see where the gaps are. I don't think you'll have that because your corner posts will be all solid and not 2X construction.

 

[billconner]

Here's some info on bookshelf girts. The spray foam option is likely the best and most expensive. Rigid foam between the girts and outside poles makes sense, probably less expensive mostly because easy DIY. I would think about just house wrap and dense pack cellulose in the walls (or even batts) as it would perform well and be east costly.

Bookshelf Girts aka Commercial Girts: What are they?

Commercial girts are set narrow edge to the wind. Spaces between them can be filled with insulation, exterior wrapped with a reflective radiant barrier for maximum R value.

www.hansenpolebuildings.com

 

[malazan]

For the lift area at 6" thick I would do a 4'X12' minimum and follow Bendpak concrete guidelines. Babysit the contractor when they do the rebar! If you want pics let me know.
Insulation-Definitely do vapor barrier underneath concrete. Would highly recommend doing a perimeter minimum 1" foam around periphery of concrete. What it does is give you a thermal break. IF you can justify the cost even a 1" foam insulation under the concrete would do wonders for efficiency. Obviously thicker is better for foam. In my home garage the floor is now my coldest area in the winter.
For the walls-you will need to do foam BEHIND the posts and under the steel panels. There will be a gap caused by the girts. That's the hardest part to insulate other than the corner posts. Probably cheaper to do the foam board vs spray cans of foam in these areas. With house wrap it will help reduce the amount of air flow caused by gaps between the steel panel overlaps and the corners.
You can do either caulk or spray foam cans at the top and bottoms of the walls. Your budget and how much physical room you have to get to hidden areas will tell you which to use.
I would make sure they put some kind of barrier at the bottom of the steel corner trim. That area is prime for cold/air flow.
For ceiling I would recommend spray cellulose once the ceiling panels are up. Vermin resistant and ease of application. Below is mom's replacement barn. Last year on the windiest coldest day the only air flow was in the corners and the gaps at the light to steel panels. If you enlarge pic 1 and look at the RH corner you can see where the gaps are. I don't think you'll have that because your corner posts will be all solid and not 2X construction.

Should that perimeter foam come up to meet the horizontal wood guide that the builders leave at the bottom? I’m sure there is more language but hopefully you get the idea. Regarding foam under concrete, what is the proper layering? Vapor barrier, foam, the concrete? Ty

 

[billconner]

You'll get different opinions on these but I would put vertical foam - 24" X 1 1/2" - against posts below rat board. And then a strip inside ratboard, between posts, overlapping lower piece. I'm assuming you will be insulating so not worried about looks of this inner piece. Then top of slab should be 3 1/2" below top of rat board.

Now, if going with bookshelf girts, a.k.a. commercial gifts, start with a pressure treated one on slab and 2' on center above. At least that's what I'd do. Add vapor barrier and interior sheathing.

You'll get many opinions on the underslab vapor barrier but mine is well compacted base, foam, vapor barrier, and concrete with reinforcement.

 

[AC-WC]

Should that perimeter foam come up to meet the horizontal wood guide that the builders leave at the bottom? I’m sure there is more language but hopefully you get the idea. Regarding foam under concrete, what is the proper layering? Vapor barrier, foam, the concrete? Ty

Correct vapor barrier, foam then concrete. Personally, I would have the foam flush to the horizontal wood.

 

[Firebrick43]

"Forever shop" or 10-15 year property then move on with no other improvements?
I have a inexpensive, glorified carport attitude that fits the above "move on" senario for the galvi tube buildings (right or wrong) and I believe it's probably the average opinion of a future buyer.
I would suggest at least pricing a conventional framed 16"oc building on a slab. This IMHO is considered as a permanent building in most people's minds and is much easier to properly insulate and finish the interior.
I've found that by the time you stud out a pole building (or a metal shed) your savings diminish or completely go away.
I'm not picking on these tube buildings and fully respect one's budget situation. They're still a zillion times better than no garage!

There is no reason to "stud out" a pole shed, its a waste of materials and money

 

[malazan]

Correct vapor barrier, foam then concrete. Personally, I would have the foam flush to the horizontal wood.

The horizontal layed foam flush to board you mean? So then concrete comes above board?

 

[billconner]

Here's another GJ thread with a lot of posts on vapor barrier under or over foam under slab.

Concrete slab Prep- Grading for 2" foam board help

Hi all, A couple years ago I built my 40x60 steel building and finally now coming back to pour the slab. I'll be doing a 5" slab, with 1/2" pex for radiant, stapled to 2" XPS board, on 15mm steggo VP. What I need help with is how best to prep the subsurface for the 2" foam board. My concrete...

www.garagejournal.com

 

[AC-WC]

The horizontal layed foam flush to board you mean? So then concrete comes above board?

Sorry, I'm not explaining properly.
Think of the floor as a box with no top.
Vapor on bottom, then (1" or whatever thickness you want) foam layer, then around the perimeter, on the sides of the bottom boards a vertical piece of foam, this foam will be flush to the top of the board, then 4-6" concrete flush to top of board.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Not interested in spray foam.

You should be ! Done correctly, it is the best way to keep humidity out !!

 

[billconner]

Here's a detail from Hansen Builders showing what I was suggesting, other than vapor barrier being above foam. I like the rat board - a 2x8 - 3 1/2" above slab so metal siding is above grade and adjacent slabs like the apron.

 

[malazan]

Here's a detail from Hansen Builders showing what I was suggesting, other than vapor barrier being above foam. I like the rat board - a 2x8 - 3 1/2" above slab so metal siding is above grade and adjacent slabs like the apron.

Do you also recommend the horizontal wing insulation?

 

[Firebrick43]

Do you also recommend the horizontal wing insulation?

Horizontal wing insulation is usually part of a shallow frost proof slab foundation where frost getting under the edge of a monolithic slab can do damage.

Vertical insulation down below the frost depth will do the same thing, especially in a moderate climate like Virginia.

I wouldn’t do it personally, even here in northern Indiana. If I lived in one of the northern border states or cunnuckistan I would

 

[billconner]

Do you also recommend the horizontal wing insulation?

Maybe I'm wrong but was thinking you're in Virginia? I think going 2' straight down is sufficient for that. Where I am on Canadian border, at 12" down I have to go 36 or 40" out. Each inch down is an inch less out.

Your posts support the building and by depth are frost protected. The majority would argue you don't need to frost protect the slab, but not my building department fwiw. So if you're ground is often wet and also not well drained, you might want to protect the slab from frost heave. I'd probably risk a crack.

 

[malazan]

After additional research and estimates I’ve updated my building. 40x50x14 from American metal garages in NC. It’s been recommended to disregard the drop ceiling/blow-in cellulose and instead spray the walls and roof with close cell spray foam. This will be a finished/climate controlled space. Does this make sense? Do I need a house wrap instead of direct foam to metal application? Thank you

 

[AC-WC]

Wrap-It won't hurt, the primary advantage is in case you ever need to replace a panel on the outside. You're looking at $500 ish for the wrap itself for your size building. $150/ roll plus labor.