Advise on Breaker Panel

[hoyt]

The building I am in is old and I have been updating the electrical system, mostly by replacing old fixtures, switches and outlets; the wiring is sound. I have replaced two glass-fuse sub-panels with modern equivalents.

Here's the service I have. It's 208 3-phase delta, 400 amps.

And a shot of the main service panels.

The smaller panel is a single-phase panel that feeds the sub-panels in other parts of the shop.

This is the problem.

At one time, this was a machine shop and this 3-phase panel serviced the welders, lathes and mills. Those are long gone and all that is now attached to it is an IR heater.

I would like to replace that panel with a new 3-phase panel of the same physical dimensions, 12"x32" that has the main lugs on the bottom, so that re-wiring the new panel is easier. There is no main breaker in this panel.

Any suggestion as to a specific model #?

 

[alfredeneuman]

400 Amp disconnects could be fused with anything between 225-400 Amps. You would need to open this up to look at the fuses to tell the service is.

The smallest panels offered today are 14-1/4" wide.

 

[Rookie2]

Well no one will like this but I had a main breaker burn out the buss in a modular home and there was no way to replace the can without out removing a wall of finished wall board. I removed and swapped the guts from a new panel . It takes some drilling and tapping new mounting screws so the new door looked appropriate and fit. Just get a smaller lug panel with less breaker space and have a go at it.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The building I am in is old and I have been updating the electrical system, mostly by replacing old fixtures, switches and outlets; the wiring is sound. I have replaced two glass-fuse sub-panels with modern equivalents.

Here's the service I have. It's 208 3-phase delta, 400 amps.

And a shot of the main service panels.

The smaller panel is a single-phase panel that feeds the sub-panels in other parts of the shop.

This is the problem.

At one time, this was a machine shop and this 3-phase panel serviced the welders, lathes and mills. Those are long gone and all that is now attached to it is an IR heater.

I would like to replace that panel with a new 3-phase panel of the same physical dimensions, 12"x32" that has the main lugs on the bottom, so that re-wiring the new panel is easier. There is no main breaker in this panel.

Any suggestion as to a specific model #?

There is NO such service as 208v DELTA. What is your line to line voltage?

I do work on all flavors of 3phase so heres the breakdown:

Delta service will be either:

3wire 240v or 480v; ungrounded or corner grounded(old school service- watch out for this as u need straight rated breakers)

Or

4wire 240v/120v with 208v between stinger and neutral. This is the most common delta service in buildings. U have to watch out for the stinger usually the b phase leg, as its NOT 120v between it and neutral! Other names include center-tapped, high leg and red leg delta.

If u have 208v line to line then u have 3-phase Y service. If its 4-wire then u will have 3 legs @ 120v to neutral/ no stinger leg...3 phase Y also comes in 480v 3-wire and 480Y/277v 4-wire...

With 4-wire delta and all single phase 120v loads, every 1st second or third breaker slot(dependent on which leg the stinger is) will need to be skipped to avoid the stinger leg and burning up 120v equipment...

Ok, my next question: what is the problem with the CH panel? U can still get new breakers for it and new panels are still made by Eaton/CH...

 

[Slowgsr]

You won't find a panel that size, 400amp 3ph panels are very large, and expensive. There are reasons small panels don't exist any more, one reason being heat/fire hazards,

I suggest hiring an experience electrical contractor, get out your cheque book as well.

What is the reason you want to upgrade the existing? How are the bus bars? Lots of burnt spots? You could always clean up what you have if it's only going to be light duty.

 

[alfredeneuman]

There is NO such service as 208v DELTA.

I didn't even notice that. Thanks!

If it is a Center Tapped 240/120 Delta it would explain the separate single phase panel for lights, etc. and the 3 phase panel for power

 

[Bib Overalls]

I would pull that ugly cover and sand blast it and paint or powder coat it "electric box grey." I would also fabricate a simple sheet metal patch to cover up the exposed buss bar positions. Pop rivet or use small machine screws to hold it in position.

I don't think grey is the proscribed color for electric panels. I like red and the next time I have a powder coating job I may opt to put my cover/door in the batch.

FYI an electric panel does not know when it is mounted upside down.

 

[Norcal]

I would pull that ugly cover and sand blast it and paint or powder coat it "electric box grey." I would also fabricate a simple sheet metal patch to cover up the exposed buss bar positions. Pop rivet or use small machine screws to hold it in position.

I don't think grey is the proscribed color for electric panels. I like red and the next time I have a powder coating job I may opt to put my cover/door in the batch.

FYI an electric panel does not know when it is mounted upside down.

Why use sheet metal when C-H offers filler plates to close off any unused positions? Makes it a lot easier when adding circuits then having to trim the metal.

That make (C-H "Classic"), panel is the last decent residential, light commercial loadcenter left on the market, the remaining ones cheaped out years ago.

BTW, not kosher to tap off the gutter w/o proper overcurrent protection to feed those panels.

 

[alfredeneuman]

The 3 phase panel has some single pole breakers in it.
If it were a Delta, even with a neutral, the positioning the single pole breakers would be wrong. A Delta has a B Phase which measures 208V to neutral, or ground.

Norcal brought up an important point. Unless the panel is rated for the full amperage of the service, it requires a main breaker. I also agree that the CH line of Cutler Hammer is far above the rest in quality.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The 3 phase panel has some single pole breakers in it.
If it were a Delta, even with a neutral, the positioning the single pole breakers would be wrong. A Delta has a B Phase which measures 208V to neutral, or ground.

Norcal brought up an important point. Unless the panel is rated for the full amperage of the service, it requires a main breaker. I also agree that the CH line of Cutler Hammer is far above the rest in quality.

The b-phase isnt always the stinger...Though it is suppose to be....I have seen it in a-phase and c-phase. I guess it depends on the lineman hooking up the service.

Was actually just doing some work in a radio tower com shack last week and some idiot hooked up 5-20 recepticles to a breaker they put on the c-phase DESPITE THE LABEL ON THE PANEL STATING THE C-PHASE IS THE STINGER/ 208V TO NEUTRAL!

So if the stinger is the c-phase in the OPs 3-phase panel the single pole breaker arrangement would be ok...

 

[ishiboo]

Why use sheet metal when C-H offers filler plates to close off any unused positions? Makes it a lot easier when adding circuits then having to trim the metal.

That make (C-H "Classic"), panel is the last decent residential, light commercial loadcenter left on the market, the remaining ones cheaped out years ago.

BTW, not kosher to tap off the gutter w/o proper overcurrent protection to feed those panels.

You've been spamming the CHs for years and dissing Square D. What's the deal? The fantastic performance of the Homeline/QO breakers over the last 50 years scare you? QO panels old and new are fantastic.

Aluminum bus bars blah blah blah. The Homelines are great, SAFE panels for not a lot of money. Not to mention Cutler Hammer competes with Homeline with the BR, which is a piece of ****.

 

[hoyt]

Thanks, guys. My old shop had 3-phase service where one leg was 208V to ground. That's not what this is. This is 120V to neutral/ground measured from each leg.

First, here's a shot inside the switch box. Those are 400-amp Fusetrons. There are no main breakers in the single- or three-phase boxes.

Here's a shot of the inside of the 3-phase box.

The top breaker is unused. The second is 240V for an IR heater and the bottom is for a 120V exterior security light.

Here's a shot of the inside of the cover.

My wife's uncle was an electrical inspector for the city and used to do/help me with all my electrical work, but not since he retired; he's past 80 years old now and doesn't get out much.

Why am I asking about replacing the box? A licensed electrician I had in the shop told me it would not pass an inspection with that piece of metal riveted over the opening. The breakers are loose and wobbly. They are not flush with the cover when that is in place. He wanted big $$ to replace it, but just replacing it is something I can do myself.

So what I hear from you folks is that I can clean this up, put some more filler plates in and I'm good to go?

 

[hoyt]

I would pull that ugly cover and sand blast it and paint or powder coat it "electric box grey." I would also fabricate a simple sheet metal patch to cover up the exposed buss bar positions. Pop rivet or use small machine screws to hold it in position.

I don't think grey is the proscribed color for electric panels. I like red and the next time I have a powder coating job I may opt to put my cover/door in the batch.

FYI an electric panel does not know when it is mounted upside down.

These are a light brown. I've cleaned them up a little (they are about 50 years old), but it would look even worse to try and paint them. It's a matched crappy-looking set!

 

[hoyt]

BTW, not kosher to tap off the gutter w/o proper overcurrent protection to feed those panels.

It's what's been here for 50 years, but there were a lot of issues with the wiring in the building when I moved in, like multiple (four IIRC) circuits returning through a single #12 neutral, a lot of connections outside of junction boxes and many missing covers, wires run without conduit, broken/damaged outlets, old work just hanging but still energized and not even terminated with a wire nut. That's all repaired now. This box is the last thing.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Here's a shot of the inside of the 3-phase box.

The top breaker is unused. The second is 240V for an IR heater and the bottom is for a 120V exterior security light.

That LOOKS like a standard 3 phase 208V Y load center to me (not that I have seen a lot of them).
The 2 pole breaker is actually delivering 208V (most heaters would not care if it was 208V or 240V).

As long as the bus bars are in good shape you would save A LOT of money be cleaning and painting the cover. As long as that patch panel is firmly attached, I can't see why any inspector would have a problem with it. Fillers would "look" nicer.

You have so few breakers that if any are "loose", I would replace them but put the in a current unused slot. Yes, more fillers.


EDIT Eaton Cutler-Hammer Type-BR Circuit Breaker Filler Plates (3-Pack) - $1.87 @ Home Depot (Not certain what exact panel type you have)

 

[theoldwizard1]

Short segue ...

Some newer 3 phase equipment (typically electronics) requires both neutral and ground (yes, 5 wires !). Would you just hook the ground to the neutral bar ? (Some electronics also may require IG so that would not be kosher !)

 

[ishiboo]

Would you just hook the ground to the neutral bar ? (Some electronics also may require IG so that would not be kosher !)

Why not?

Isolated ground is simply a separate wire. It's still bonded with the neutral at the main panel when the neutral/ground are normally connected, or wherever it's done.

 

[hoyt]

Short segue ...

Some newer 3 phase equipment (typically electronics) requires both neutral and ground (yes, 5 wires !). Would you just hook the ground to the neutral bar ? (Some electronics also may require IG so that would not be kosher !)

Local code requires the neutral and ground be bonded together. I'm not certain how they handle an independent ground for electronics..

 

[hoyt]

That LOOKS like a standard 3 phase 208V Y load center to me (not that I have seen a lot of them).
The 2 pole breaker is actually delivering 208V (most heaters would not care if it was 208V or 240V).

As long as the bus bars are in good shape you would save A LOT of money be cleaning and painting the cover. As long as that patch panel is firmly attached, I can't see why any inspector would have a problem with it. Fillers would "look" nicer.

You have so few breakers that if any are "loose", I would replace them but put the in a current unused slot. Yes, more fillers.

The electrician that wanted to replace the box for me was here because I was doing some work on his car, so I thought it wise to get some more opinions.

I believe I'll just clean it up, replace those few breakers and move on for now.

Thanks for the advice and discussion.

 

[alfredeneuman]

That is a 208/120 Volt WYE panel, not a delta.
You could just replace the sheet metal section with fillers like are on the other side. It looks like you already have one laying inside the panel

If the panel itself is rated at 400 Amps, and the conductors are suitable for 400 Amps, you wouldn't need a main breaker, and would be good for any inspection.

 

[hoyt]

If the panel itself is rated at 400 Amps, and the conductors are suitable for 400 Amps, you wouldn't need a main breaker, and would be good for any inspection.

I am unable to find any tag or sticker that identifies the panel model number or current rating.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks, guys. My old shop had 3-phase service where one leg was 208V to ground. That's not what this is. This is 120V to neutral/ground measured from each leg....

Then u have WYE service NOT DELTA.

The top breaker is unused. The second is 240V for an IR heater and the bottom is for a 120V exterior security light.

A double pole breaker on a 208Y service will give 208v NOT 240v...

So what I hear from you folks is that I can clean this up, put some more filler plates in and I'm good to go?

As Norcal alluded to, those panels or any replacement needs a main breaker UNLESS they are rated properly as alfred pointed out above...

It's what's been here for 50 years, but there were a lot of issues with the wiring in the building when I moved in, like multiple (four IIRC) circuits returning through a single #12 neutral, a lot of connections outside of junction boxes and many missing covers, wires run without conduit, broken/damaged outlets, old work just hanging but still energized and not even terminated with a wire nut. That's all repaired now. This box is the last thing.

Actually, if it was 3 hots each from a different phase sharing a neutral, then it would be perfectly ok. 3 hots and a neutral on a 208y is a MWBC(multi-wire branch circuit) where the neutral carries only the imbalance between thr phases...

Short segue ...

Some newer 3 phase equipment (typically electronics) requires both neutral and ground (yes, 5 wires !). Would you just hook the ground to the neutral bar ? (Some electronics also may require IG so that would not be kosher !)

EGCs and neutrals are only bonded at the main service. So if its in a subpanel then no an EGC cannot go to the neutral bar.

Isolated grounding is a whole other can of worms. In a subpanel, the isolated grounds need to go to an insulated ground bar that bonds at the main panel. IGs is used to keep electrical noise thats found on metallic systems, such as conduit, away from and out of sensitive electronics...

Why not?

Isolated ground is simply a separate wire. It's still bonded with the neutral at the main panel when the neutral/ground are normally connected, or wherever it's done.

See response above...

Local code requires the neutral and ground be bonded together. I'm not certain how they handle an independent ground for electronics..

Current code(2008 and newer) allows Neutral and ground to be bonded ONLY at the main service panel. After the first disconnect, neutrals need to be isolated/insulated from the panel enclosure...

In the OPs case, 3-wire circuits were allowed when the panels were installed so the neutral bars are probably bonded to the enclosures and is grandfathered in...

 

[alfredeneuman]

What does the printing on the actual conductors themselves say?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

400a rated conductors would either be 600kcmil CU or 800kcmil AL

 

[hoyt]

Actually, if it was 3 hots each from a different phase sharing a neutral, then it would be perfectly ok. 3 hots and a neutral on a 208y is a MWBC(multi-wire branch circuit) where the neutral carries only the imbalance between thr phases...

No, they were all run from a single-phase sub-panel and powered the lights, wall outlets, A/C and baseboard heater in one room. Individual wires were attached to the rafters with staples. The neutral was daisy-chained from device to device. Maybe they were running low on white wire? 8)

 

[hoyt]

What does the printing on the actual conductors themselves say?

I'll look tomorrow if I get to the shop.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

No, they were all run from a single-phase sub-panel and powered the lights, wall outlets, A/C and baseboard heater in one room. Individual wires were attached to the rafters with staples. The neutral was daisy-chained from device to device. Maybe they were running low on white wire? 8)

Nevermind about the MWBC then...loose individual wires and no conduit? Ugg, sounds like hack work...