Afci

[BADSIX]

I'm remodeling a house I just bought and 2 of the bedrooms receptacles 5 ea. are wired together to 1 std. breaker . question is ,can I put these 2 bedrooms on one 20 amp AFCI or do they need there own individual AFCI. to pass code inspection.
Jay D.

 

[Cmreschke]

1 should be okay. But make sure it's 12 guage wire before you put it on a 20 amp breaker. If it's 14 guage wire then it needs a 15 amp breaker.

 

[BADSIX]

its no.12

 

[doctorsouse]

If you can figure out which receptacle is the first one in line, you can also just replace that receptacle with an AFCI one. It will provide the arc flash protection on the load side of the first one. Same concept of GFCI that you have in your kitchen. Of course breaker is probably easier.

 

[6t7gto]

Why won't you be grandfathered?

 

[Norcal]

If you can figure out which receptacle is the first one in line, you can also just replace that receptacle with an AFCI one. It will provide the arc flash protection on the load side of the first one. Same concept of GFCI that you have in your kitchen. Of course breaker is probably easier.

It's Arc Fault, not Arc Flash, two different beasts.

Why won't you be grandfathered?

You make any changes & it triggers the AFCI requirements.

 

[checkthisout]

Two different bedrooms can can be on the same circuit, so charge ahead as planned and don't forget tamper-proof outlets.

Contrary to what some said above, if you modified the wiring or it's new wiring or whatever your only option is an AFCI breaker.

 

[checkthisout]

Why won't you be grandfathered?

I don't think remodels have ever been considered anything but new construction that has to apply to current codes so grandfathering would never apply anyway.

Code requires upgrading to AFCI when replacing an outlet (this has been discussed here before) or when modifying the circuit wiring. (not going into specifics here) as well as tamper-proofs.

 

[doctorsouse]

You are correct on arc flash. Good catch. Got to disagree on the only option being a breaker unless its a local code. NEC 2011 210.12 B 2 actually list 'AFCI located at the first receptacle outlet of the existing branch circuit'.

Doesn't really matter since the OP wants to do a breaker anyways, just wanted to provide an option if he didn't want to go into his panel.

 

[BADSIX]

Two different bedrooms can can be on the same circuit, so charge ahead as planned and don't forget tamper-proof outlets.

Contrary to what some said above, if you modified the wiring or it's new wiring or whatever your only option is an AFCI breaker.

YES, I have modified the electrical, new meter base, installed a new master disconnect, replaced the old Zinsco circuit box. and have ran new branch circuits and modified some of the old ones. I want to bring it up to current code as much as I can.

THANKS, YOU DA MAN
Jay D.

 

[checkthisout]

Got to disagree on the only option being a breaker unless its a local code. NEC 2011 210.12 B 2 actually list 'AFCI located at the first receptacle outlet of the existing branch circuit

It's ok to disagree, just know that the information you are giving is wrong.

If you modify the existing wiring or it's new construction, you must install an arc fault breaker or arc fault breaker/outlet combo and have the wiring in metal cladding I.E. emt, imc, bmc etc up to the first outlet.

The second option using an outlet and breaker with the wire in metal cladding is ridiculously complex vs simply installing a afci combo breaker.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

It's ok to disagree, just know that the information you are giving is wrong.

If you modify the existing wiring or it's new construction, you must install an arc fault breaker or arc fault breaker/outlet combo and have the wiring in metal cladding I.E. emt, imc, bmc etc up to the first outlet.

The second option using an outlet and breaker with the wire in metal cladding is ridiculously complex vs simply installing a afci combo breaker.

Not everyplace makes you run wiring from panel in conduit to outlets.

 

[Cmreschke]

Not everyplace makes you run wiring from panel in conduit to outlets.

Probably by local ammendment.

 

[checkthisout]

Not everyplace makes you run wiring from panel in conduit to outlets.

In what situation?

 

[doctorsouse]

It's ok to disagree, just know that the information you are giving is wrong.

If you modify the existing wiring or it's new construction, you must install an arc fault breaker or arc fault breaker/outlet combo and have the wiring in metal cladding I.E. emt, imc, bmc etc up to the first outlet.

The second option using an outlet and breaker with the wire in metal cladding is ridiculously complex vs simply installing a afci combo breaker.

Not sure how the information is wrong. By no means was I implying using the MC option. I was assuming NM cable was being used as it's a residential project. NEC does not list breaker, it lists interrupter. In Article 100 is listed as 'A device intended to provide protection from the effects of arc faults by recognizing characteristics unique to arching and by function to de-energize the circuit when an arc fault is detected'. I don't see how a AFCI duplex doesn't do this, especially when NEC gives it as an example. Is the breaker thing something who have run into with inspectors?

 

[checkthisout]

Not sure how the information is wrong. By no means was I implying using the MC option. I was assuming NM cable was being used as it's a residential project. NEC does not list breaker, it lists interrupter. In Article 100 is listed as 'A device intended to provide protection from the effects of arc faults by recognizing characteristics unique to arching and by function to de-energize the circuit when an arc fault is detected'. I don't see how a AFCI duplex doesn't do this, especially when NEC gives it as an example. Is the breaker thing something who have run into with inspectors?

I don't know what you're talking about.

Quote the code you are referencing.

 

[Mustang51js]

It's ok to disagree, just know that the information you are giving is wrong.

If you modify the existing wiring or it's new construction, you must install an arc fault breaker or arc fault breaker/outlet combo and have the wiring in metal cladding I.E. emt, imc, bmc etc up to the first outlet.

The second option using an outlet and breaker with the wire in metal cladding is ridiculously complex vs simply installing a afci combo breaker.

This is correct, if you use romex to first outlet and use a afci outlet,its not up to code. Easiest thing is to use a afci breaker because its close to the same price.

 

[Cmreschke]

I believe if it's existing wiring you would have been allowed the afci receptacle (without the provision for metal protection to the first receptacle). Since you are modifying the home runs as well then your only option would be a breaker unless you installed home runs in metal to the first box.

 

[BADSIX]

Not everyplace makes you run wiring from panel in conduit to outlets.[/QUOTE

never see conduit here in residential
Jay D.

 

[ddawg16]

Before we all get into a ******* contest.....

What is required depends on the code cycle your area is following. Most states are following at least 2008....which requires AFCI's for 'all' bedroom fixtures....this includes lights. I think 2013 includes family areas.....(I'm sure a hot shot electrician will chime in to correct me)

As Norcal noted....making any changes to the electrical...especially changing your load center, would trigger the new requirements.

As for " metal cladding I.E. emt, imc, bmc etc up to the first outle", that is going to be a local thing. So, unless the poster knows the local rules in the area of the OP, no reason to bring it up.

I personally don't care for the 'outlet' based AFCI's. Reason being, it's too easy to block it for easy access. One couch or book case and one could spend hours trying to find the problem. Load center based AFCI's are really the only way to go.

I'm surprise no one posted about the evils of AFCI's and how they are a product of big business buying off the NEC.

Personally, I think they work exactly as they are intended. I've had no false trips (and lord knows I've powered enough power tools on those outlets) and they do trip when you do have a real problem. Such as the broken wire I had in an outside box.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

We are not required to update to afci protection on a panel/service upgrade around here anyway.
once you open a wall youre stuck with upgrading that circuit if need be though.

 

[checkthisout]

making any changes to the electrical...especially changing your load center, would trigger the new requirements.

Changing out a breaker panel does not require upgrading to AFCI's under any NEC that I am aware of.

 

[jim111]

2014 NEC 210.12 is two and a half pages of different scenarios and rules for arc fault protection. If your work is anything other than use of AFCI breaker, you better discuss it with your inspector as interpretation does vary

 

[Cmreschke]

Local regulations will tell you when you have to upgrade to afci. They may not require it if your changing a like for like receptacle, but may require it on a panel upgrade since the breakers are more readily available. It's really a question for city hall, the code will just tell you what is required to make it compliant.

 

[Mustang51js]

I can replace every outlet,light,switch and panel upgrade and not have to use afci. I can even do remodels without them(using existing curcuits). They are only required or at least enforced when you run a new curcuit

 

[BADSIX]

I replaced most of my circuits only the bedrooms are the original wiring it was suggested that AFCI breakers be installed buy the elec. inspector. I could have probably fought it, but 2 AFIC'S for the bedrooms was a small price to pay for a happy inspector. just like the wife a happy inspector is a happy life. he has been really good with me showing me how to do different wiring projects.
Jay D.