Affende's 'How the other half lives' thread

[affende]

Since this is my second post ill do a short Introduction.

I am Affende. I am 27 and I am foreman / welder. I tend to make up my own words and i am quite sarcastic and harsh. Bring your thick skin.

I oversee all the outside mobile work and the welding and fabrication shop for my company (40 employees all told).

It seems like there are a lot of automotive mechanics here ... and a lot of home hobbyist. Kudos to you ... but this is how i live...

Toro 650D lift arm came in two days ago for a complete rebuild. This includes repairing all threaded holes, align boring, installing new bushings, and test fitting all pins for what the customer calls a "field slide fit but within manufacturers specifications (all holes are size to +0.002). I think the customer is being a bit contradictory ... but oh well. Long time customer and we always do them right.

On to the pics!!!



i got the call this morning from the shop saying our equipment was not working properly .... so i head to the shop to find this:

The arm, already disassembled

(keep in mind in the next few pictures that we paid nearly $40k for this equipment)

The bores have been cut out for welding (controversial, but our company policy is to ALWAYS cut the bore 100% clean for weld prep) and this is the weld that my guy put in ...

Needless to say, I am displeasure.

I checked his work ... and politely showed him that he had the machine on the LI (low inductance) lug instead of the HI (high inductance) lug. Can you run it on LI? yes, i have many times with acceptable results ... but it does tend to be fussy for some reason where other brand setups are not. FWIW, i love this setup ... i have completed a hundred or so setups with it and the climax is an amazing machine ... much better than the BD we used to have.

i swapped lugs, cut the hole and began to weld it again ...

i did get one dog knot as the spatter built up on the nozzle and fell off in the puddle(my mistake as i did not clean the nozzle half way through as set up for the second half of the bore ... OOPS!). visible below around 4 o clock.

welding:

control panel: (all of the bore welding equipment is packed in Pelican Cases ... The control panel is built into this one).

finished the bore ... and started cutting ...

almost through on the roughing pass ...

a few of the shavings i was bringing out .... thats a 12" scale for reference

fuzzy picture of the case the boring equipment stays in (from the manufacturer as well).

all of the bore welding equipment waiting for the next bore.

A side note: Having done this in the field ... and having contracted people to do this on our own equipment i will say that the "bad weld" probably would have worked. A bushing does not know the difference between 100% contact and 80% contact. However, Having seen what some companies do ... and having had them do it to us on our own equipment ... we require a 'visual 95% contact with minimal tool chatter". We strive for 100% ... but it just doesnt happen.

if anyone cares about this type of stuff ... ill keep updating until there is no more interest. any questions, fire away.

-Affende

 

[affende]

and .... why i do it ...

 

[uniballer]

Welcome and thanks for the picture show, never knew such machine existed.

 

[NHBandit]

Amazing work.

 

[vette66bob]

Amazing, interesting post. I have watched crankshaft rebuilders use a similar process to build up journals and bearing surfaces on some extremely large equipment. The difference is the buildup of the outside surface compared to the inside. The finish is very precise, polished and controlled. I have wondered if the longevity factor is equal or better than the original.

 

[NHBandit]

Amazing, interesting post. I have watched crankshaft rebuilders use a similar process to build up journals and bearing surfaces on some extremely large equipment. The difference is the buildup of the outside surface compared to the inside. The finish is very precise, polished and controlled. I have wondered if the longevity factor is equal or better than the original.

I had a badly damaged Chevy 302 crank welded up and reground for a 69 Z/28 I restored 15 years ago due to the rarity of good large journal 302 cranks. Still going strong 15 years later.

 

[nuklbstr83]

very cool.

 

[affende]

Welcome and thanks for the picture show, never knew such machine existed.

not a problem. Its an amazing machine and an amazing process.

Amazing work.

Thank you. And we seem to be a very close neighbors ...

Amazing, interesting post. I have watched crankshaft rebuilders use a similar process to build up journals and bearing surfaces on some extremely large equipment. The difference is the buildup of the outside surface compared to the inside. The finish is very precise, polished and controlled. I have wondered if the longevity factor is equal or better than the original.

We generally do not polish the bores if they get a bushing or if the pin is captured to that bore (the pin is rarely allowed to "free float in all bores"). If the bore does see rotation of the pin, and does not get a bushing, then we will hone it out after our final cut. Generally speaking though, machine finish is more than good enough for this heavy equipment.

we also do OD buildup and machining. Portable lathes. We do the spindles on some pretty large machines from time to time. weld them up (still bolted to the equipment) and then turn them back down.

The longevity depends entirely on the quality of the work (of course you already knew that, duh). Generally, it has very similar service life to the original ... if only slightly diminished (each welding of the surface anneals it making it more prone to wear and / or deformation).

Of course, then you get the fun ones that (generally due to a crack pulling oil or grease into the weld) get extremely hard and you burn up multiple cutters trying to get it back to size!

 

[affende]

very cool.

thank you.

ill see if i can grab some video later this week for those that are interested .... although to me, its a bit like watching a a clock tick away the seconds ...

 

[Case IH]

So bear with me,

The threads were screwed up
So you cut them out
Then welded the inside of the hole to build up material
Then bored out the hole and re-threaded it?


Did I understand this rite?

Thanks for your patience

 

[affende]

So bear with me,

The threads were screwed up
So you cut them out
Then welded the inside of the hole to build up material
Then bored out the hole and re-threaded it?


Did I understand this rite?

Thanks for your patience

Generally? yes you understood it correctly ... only there are no threads.


The hole is just that, a hole. no threads. That particular set of bores attaches the main boom to the loader. the holes get a bushing put in them and then installed onto the loader and pins are pushed through the bores to attach the boom to the loader.

The size for that hole is 6.496" - 6.497" .... one measured 6.4994 and the other measured 6.501".

The holes were worn beyond manufacturer specification.

this is all underground mining equipment .... it has to be dismantled to be brought to the surface so EVERYTHING is brought back to manufacturer specifications no matter how small the variation is. It costs a lot of money to bring this stuff to the surface, so it has to be as close to 100% new as possible or the customer just wasted the money getting it fixed, the money bringing it to the surface, lost production, and possible shut down time and repair costs because someone got lazy.

A lot of 'quarry workers' complain and say its a waste of time to worry about a few thousandths of an inch on these .... but they complain more when the loader eats through a bushing in a few months. Tight tolerances keep the machines going for longer. once the bore starts to wear ... the rate of wear increases exponentially.

For example. This exact lift arm was rebuilt by another company 5 months ago. The bucket end of this arm is worn over 0.500" in the bores. Our rebuilds have averaged 11 months of service before needing to be brought back up. out buckets for this machine last 13 months on average. The previous rebuilder on the buckets had a longevity measured in weeks ... single digit weeks at that.

We try our best to let nothing go by ... even if we lose money on the job (these are quoted jobs .... not time and material jobs)

So...

We cut the hole out (about 0.060" per side) to get to good clean metal and to keep from machining back to the point where the weld meets the base.

Welded up the bore ( i was putting in somewhere in the ballpark of 1/8" (0.125") of weld per side.)

then machine back out to spec.

This is referred to as "align-boring" or "line-boring" where as the two bores are concentric and parallel within about 0.002" in this application (i think concentric is 0.005" and parallel is 0.003" spec from the factory).

 

[Case IH]

Ohh I see, I recognized the pice, now it makes sence, thanks

 

[jhn9840]

I find this type of work fascinating. How do determine how much weld is being deposited during the actual process or does it matter. Look forward to seeing more pictures and videos of your work.

Jhn9840
John

 

[kevin47]

I've seen an old Bridgeport Mill head used to to bore the hole in the old days...

 

[koditten]

Thanks Effende. Please carry on with adding pics and explanations. I can only speak for myself, but I can't get enough of these types of posts.

Planning viewing many post from you.

Kirk

 

[Holedgr]

Mind blowing! I am With Koditten...MORE pics and write-ups, PLEASE.

-T

 

[davesnothere]

Good read. Thanks for posting!

 

[affende]

I find this type of work fascinating. How do determine how much weld is being deposited during the actual process or does it matter. Look forward to seeing more pictures and videos of your work.

Jhn9840
John

i know that my machine puts down about a 1/8" bead. so i cut no more than i have to to get a clean bore.

Sometimes, you just have to weld it a few times to get enough build up.

its a pretty simple method of knowing if you need more weld ... after you get the bore welded ... i stick a scale up to it to see if its enough. i know i need about 1/16th to clean up from welded to finish bore ... so any more than that and i start cutting.

 

[affende]

Thanks Effende. Please carry on with adding pics and explanations. I can only speak for myself, but I can't get enough of these types of posts.

Planning viewing many post from you.

Kirk

Ill try to get some pics up at least once a week for you guys ...

Mind blowing! I am With Koditten...MORE pics and write-ups, PLEASE.

-T

ill try my best.

Good read. Thanks for posting!

10-4

 

[TommyK]

I work for a construction company. We bought the equipment for this last year and started doing our own. We were being charged outrageous amounts of money for this service ( like 6-10 grand a pop) and the down time was killing us.

Turns out it ain't that hard to do.

 

[affende]

I work for a construction company. We bought the equipment for this last year and started doing our own. We were being charged outrageous amounts of money for this service ( like 6-10 grand a pop) and the down time was killing us.

Turns out it ain't that hard to do.

not really. if you can do basic math and have a basic understanding of the equipment and processes involved (as well as the correct tools obviously!) then you can do it.

Being that these are pictures from work, i can not disclose what we charge. But we have a flat rate for 1 setup, this includes cutting, welding, recutting, and bushing for two holes.

Each additional hole on that same setup is a flat rate charge.

so on this arm we have 4 setups (8 holes) plus 2 additional holes (one setup has 4 holes ... all others just have two.

Explain what you would get for 6-9k and ill tell you if its reasonable from my experience, if you want.

 

[dtt454]

i know we use the climax machine, im not the one that uses it, but the guy that does says there is no comparison.

 

[affende]

i know we use the climax machine, im not the one that uses it, but the guy that does says there is no comparison.

He is right. We have bought packages in the past ... and they all lacked at least 3 things that were must have. They were all mediocre quality and they were all designed and thought out half way.

Then we bought the climax. Every single part you need came with it. Down to a 1/2" breaker bar and a 5/16" and 3/8" half inch drive allens (armstrong brand, too!). They literally give you every bolt and nut needed and every wrench, socket, T-handle, and driver you need to use the machine.

I have never in my life seen this kind of thought put into equipment. The only thing the user needs to provide to use the package we bought (a very standard package) is PPE, a welding power source, welding gas, welding wire, and 120V access. DONE.

everything is beefy, too. our old B&D had cast bearing supports ... which broke. the hydraulic drive unit would stall on anything over 0.060" cut, the fittings leaked, the motor and belt drive assembly was junk and ate belts (we kept 3 spares for every job ... and hoped we didnt run out of spare belts).

the climax unit: welded plate steel and machined bearing suports (the bearing arm is 1.250" thick A36 ... the tack blocks are boxed 0.500" thick). The electric motor (Milwaukee HD two speed motor) will shear a 1/2" HSS cutter at the bar before it stalls. Parts are quality, perfect fit, machined all internal drive (no belts or gears exposed except the the feed bar).

The only problem we have had is with the feed box ... it has been repaired twice ... and it needs it again (one year old now). But i chalk it up to: everything else is perfect, i can deal with a box that has minor issues exacerbated by idiots running it too hard.

The climax is by far the best machine on the market, IMHO.

 

[affende]

Updates ... finally got time to finish the loader side bores .... and start on the bucket side bores.

loader side done:

Starting on the bucket side: This side was worn very badly. The bore was 6.511" top to bottom (spec is 6.496" - 6.498") and almost 7" side to side. Eggs are not this out of round.

here you can clearly see how i was only hitting half of a hole .... and that was taking over 0.125" cut per side (measuring the chips with calipers to check depth of cut just for curiosity sake)....

my view for about 2 hours while i cut the hole .... with the most important tool in the shop in my hand! Folgers Black Silk Coffee .... double brewed.

Got both holes cut out for weld prep ... and the welder set up and ready to go ... first thing monday morning, fill it back up!

 

[-->]

Im somewhat familiar with these processes. How much does one of these setups cost ? It uses mig correct ?

 

[ckadams00]

Awesome, thank you, and welcome!

1/2 inch ratchet is about the biggest thing in my shop

 

[A_Pmech]

Affende,

Welcome to GJ and great post!

Portable line boring is something I've been planning to add to my shop's capabilities for some time now. It's nice to read another take on the equipment. I plan to build my own hydraulic boring bar, but will buy the bore welder.

I'd enjoy reading and seeing more about the setup and operation of your bore welder.

 

[affende]

Im somewhat familiar with these processes. How much does one of these setups cost ? It uses mig correct ?

Correct, It uses the gmaw (mig) process. Our setup, including boring and welding was around 40k. Worth every penny.

Awesome, thank you, and welcome!

1/2 inch ratchet is about the biggest thing in my shop

10-4. Size of the tool does not matter ... The skill of the user is the important thing ... At least that is what she keeps telling me

Affende,

Welcome to GJ and great post!

Portable line boring is something I've been planning to add to my shop's capabilities for some time now. It's nice to read another take on the equipment. I plan to build my own hydraulic boring bar, but will buy the bore welder.

I'd enjoy reading and seeing more about the setup and operation of your bore welder.

Thank you. Any reason you are going hydraulic? I much prefer the electric drive. We also have an air powered motor (my least favorite) for explosive environment and underground.

If you might take a recommendation, give a serious look at the climax equipment. I have random people comment on how amazing the brand is (novice and experienced techs both compliment the choice in brand).

I have the b5500 welding outfit and it is perfect. Once I tear down the boring equipment ... From unloading the welding outfit to putting down steel is about 15 minutes. You use the boring equipment, with one alignment block, to setup centerline for the boring equipment. You just can't beat that kind of thought put into making sure two different processes compliment each other so perfectly.

I highly suggest a full kit from climax ... It is a lot of money up front, but it is worth every penny and more. Disclaimer: other than being an end user, I have zero affiliation with climax or any other brand of equipment.

Feel free to ask any questions you might have. If you want, I'll even do a few videos of the setup for you so you can see how user friendly the equipment really is.

 

[alan camby]

I know nothing about heavy equipment.

What causes the wear. Is it all the heavy pounding that distorts and egg shapes the bore.
Or, is it the bushing rotating in the bore? The pin should rotate in the bushing right? If the bushing is rotating, why not have a way to attach it to the bore. Once again, assuming the bushing is a press fit?? what is the bushing material.
All the rebuilds get a new pin??

Just trying to understand this.
Thanks, Alan

 

[affende]

I know nothing about heavy equipment.

What causes the wear. Is it all the heavy pounding that distorts and egg shapes the bore.
Or, is it the bushing rotating in the bore? The pin should rotate in the bushing right? If the bushing is rotating, why not have a way to attach it to the bore. Once again, assuming the bushing is a press fit?? what is the bushing material.
All the rebuilds get a new pin??

Just trying to understand this.
Thanks, Alan

Wear is generally caused by the shear weight of everything being supported on the bore. The cylinders are lifting the weight and trying to rip everything apart ... The bores just restrain the forces in the way we humans want in order to move things in the direction we need.

These loaders weigh anywhere from 20 to 50 TONS ... That's a lot of weight to slam into a pile of rocks.

The bushings are captured in the bores and they do not rotate.

The bushings are either hardened steel alloys or hardened bronze. All the bushings in this arm are either size to size ( bronze ) or a few thousandths press fit. We use LN2 to shrink the bushings and get them in the bores.

Of course most major damage happens with part failure ... I.e. a bushings splits or gets mashed out of a hole ( which is what happened on this most recent update to this thread), a pin breaks and the operator doesn't catch it or a retaining cap shears its bolts and allows the pin to drift ... Again if the operator doesn't catch it ... It is extremely easy to allow problems to go on an entire shift or until the next per-shift inspection. The damage is done in minutes.

All rebuilds get new pins and new paint too!!

 

[TommyK]

I know nothing about heavy equipment.

What causes the wear. Is it all the heavy pounding that distorts and egg shapes the bore.
Or, is it the bushing rotating in the bore? The pin should rotate in the bushing right? If the bushing is rotating, why not have a way to attach it to the bore. Once again, assuming the bushing is a press fit?? what is the bushing material.
All the rebuilds get a new pin??

Just trying to understand this.
Thanks, Alan

The biggest cause is an operator who doesn't take the time to grease every day.

 

[msnow]

Looks great I keep thinking about getting into setting up a mobile line boring operation but I don't have much specific experience in it. Looks great and please keep posting projects.

 

[03protege]

That's pretty neat stuff, I guess when you need it there is no substitute.

 

[-->]

The biggest cause is an operator who doesn't take the time to grease every day.

This^

 

[freedomgli]

Love it. Keep the updates coming. I'm always fascinated to learn how large pieces of equipment are refurbished like this.

 

[A_Pmech]

Thank you. Any reason you are going hydraulic? I much prefer the electric drive. We also have an air powered motor (my least favorite) for explosive environment and underground.

Partly because I have all the stuff sitting on the shelf looking for a purpose in life and partly because I want to build a heavier machine than what's currently on the market. The Climax machine does look like a very well thought out piece of equipment though. If I find a setup at a good price I might drag it home with me.

I'd enjoy seeing a video as would some of the other GJ members here. I'm very familiar with line boring, although with much larger machines. However, I have no experience with bore welding.

 

[ford33]

Yes, please keep posting. I find it interesting that this precision machining is done on a machine that needs to be refurbished every 13 months. I realize working in an underground mine is a difficult and dangerours job and now know that the machines are also worked hard.

 

[SM Racing]

Are you using regular MIG wire or something harder? How well do your tool bits hold up when boring the newly welded surface compared to the parent material.

That is a really impressive setup. Looks like a very clean way to restore that surface.

 

[theoldwizard1]

This is referred to as "align-boring" or "line-boring" where as the two bores are concentric and parallel within about 0.002" in this application (i think concentric is 0.005" and parallel is 0.003" spec from the factory).

I have seen this done on a lathe and it is pretty tricky to get both holes aligned !

Probably too late now, but I would love some details pictures of the boring equipment and how it is mounted as well as how you find "center".

 

[theoldwizard1]

I hate to highjack the OP thread, but if you like this kind of stuff check out Keith Fenner's YouTube channel. There is some incredible machining and cast iron/silicon bronze brazing in his videos !

Warning ! This guy is a bit long winded as he explains everything at least 2 or 3 times before he does it. Very "old school" with a lot of old school machinery. Most of his videos are actually multi-part (4-8) and run 30+ minutes each so you better have a lot of time on your hands.

This video shows part of how he bored the ID of a long, heavy tube.