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Air Chisel: Battery Powered?

tez929rr

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We have decided that we can use an air chisel as part of our rescue tool set. A company (Ajax) makes a nice one that will run off of the spare SCBA bottles we carry on our rescue truck. Now, everything else on the truck is battery powered; the Hurst tools, scene lights, pole saw, reciprocating saw, etc. I’d rather stay with battery power if possible, but I can’t find a battery powered chisel tool anywhere. Lots of rotary hammers and demolition tools but no small air chisels.

Here is the Ajax tool if you aren’t sure what I’m taking about:
View media item 108025
https://www.feldfire.com/Ajax-Rescu...fYcClRdTfcePBqaBngJnzOLLUzXoCydoaApl8EALw_wcB
 
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bobcatdan

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If there is a cordless "air" hammer, it is a well kept secret because otherwise it would be one of the hottest tools out there.
 

Ign

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Yeah it's one of the last holdouts in allowing batteries to nearly take over air.

I want to believe one is coming, almost surely from Milwaukee. They released a cordless rivet gun and heat gun, both of which I always wanted and was sure would never happen.
 

rlitman

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If there is a cordless "air" hammer, it is a well kept secret because otherwise it would be one of the hottest tools out there.

SDS hammers are technically pneumatic (internally). But as you have discovered, no electric hammer (corded or cordless) packs the kind of striking energy in the size package you can get in something truly pneumatic. It's just not possible. If you want heavy hitting power in something handheld, you're stuck with pneumatic, because something cordless with the same power will weight about 5x as much (and be that much larger as well).
 

Ign

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SDS hammers are technically pneumatic (internally). But as you have discovered, no electric hammer (corded or cordless) packs the kind of striking energy in the size package you can get in something truly pneumatic. It's just not possible. If you want heavy hitting power in something handheld, you're stuck with pneumatic, because something cordless with the same power will weight about 5x as much (and be that much larger as well).

That's just an argument for battery haters, though. Something 5x heavier and larger than an air hammer isn't that big a deal, esp if the portability is valued over having to find a way to have air and run hoses.

It's similar to an engine driven demo saw - of course it's going to be larger and heavier than a 15A electric motor - it's got a small engine and gas tank hanging off the side of it.

For some reason people are willing to accept that engine driven tools will be bigger and heavier than corded, but suggest battery power and suddenly people swear it can never happen or will never be accepted by consumers due to size and weight.

I predict we'll see one sooner or later. And yes, it will be big and heavy relative to a PH3050. But truly, how heavy and large are air hammers? I think I can pick up something "five times" the weight. And most cases where I use an air hammer access is quite good. I'm SURE board members can state examples of limited access but it doesn't mean a much larger hammer won't have a huge number of uses and applications
 
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tez929rr

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That's just an argument for battery haters, though. Something 5x heavier and larger than an air hammer isn't that big a deal, esp if the portability is valued over having to find a way to have air and run hoses.

It's similar to an engine driven demo saw - of course it's going to be larger and heavier than a 15A electric motor - it's got a small engine and gas tank hanging off the side of it.

For some reason people are willing to accept that engine driven tools will be bigger and heavier than corded, but suggest battery power and suddenly people swear it can never happen or will never be accepted by consumers due to size and weight.

I predict we'll see one sooner or later. And yes, it will be big and heavy relative to a PH3050. But truly, how heavy and large are air hammers? I think I can pick up something "five times" the weight. And most cases where I use an air hammer access is quite good. I'm SURE board members can state examples of limited access but it doesn't mean a much larger hammer won't have a huge number of uses and applications

Hence our battery powered Hurst tools. Combi tool (spreader and cutter) weighs 53 pounds and the cutter 51 pounds but: roll up on the scene and no hydraulic pump or hoses. Pick up the tool and push one button; cutting or spreading in 30 seconds.

One of our guys is a retired Snap-On regional manager, and he was concerned that we might not get much life from a 4500 SCBA bottle. We carry 4 on the truck and I don’t see that we would run a tool long enough to be a problem, but I would like to not add another system to the truck. Then again, maybe we will find other uses for the air system. I just don’t want to make it too complicated.

Every time we go to a firefighting school we find some neat tool to stick in our bunker coat, until one day you realize that there is 8 pounds of stuff in your pockets and you clean it out.
 

Under_Pressure

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As others have alluded to, this type of tool is difficult to translate to a battery (or more broadly, electrically) operated version. To get any sort of real performance, given the current technology available the tool needs to essentially do internally what the air compressor would be doing anyway, so it is going to end up heavier/bulkier, more expensive, and probably lower performing. Other types of tools (impacts, drills, etc.) are mostly converting pneumatic energy into rotary motion- something that is straightforward to do with electrical energy as well. A tool like this hammer- requiring strong, rapid, back and forth movement- is a little different. It might be theoretically possible to do something with electromagnetism I suppose, but that's not out there yet. Many of the rapid advances in cordless tools recently have revolved around the development of extremely powerful (for a given size) brushless motors running off of high voltage, energy-dense batteries. Once those components are developed, it's just a matter of figuring out how to adapt them to all sorts of different tools. High energy reciprocating hammer-type tools are one where it is not just a simple matter of packaging and powertrain design to make it work.

Pneumatics have some operating characteristics that are hard to beat for certain applications. One is hand-held tools for continuous, relatively high speed operations, especially when the nature of the job is such that you frequently bog the tool down. Think of a Dremel vs. a pneumatic die grinder- that's a tool where air power shines. Another is rapid release of large amounts of energy in quick succession, like an air hammer. The "explosive," energy-dense nature of compressed gas just suits the operation extremely well. For a somewhat similar application, look at "cordless" nailers. Yes, there are nailers that operate exclusively on battery power (DeWalt) but, other than convenience, my impression is that they are OK at best- a case of trying to fit the square peg of battery power into the round hole of using a sharp blow to drive a nail. The more successful compressor free nailers are those like the Paslode which are essentially internal combustion engines, using fuel to ignite and create the pulse of energy that you would otherwise get from compressed air.
 

RedneckWelder

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Hence our battery powered Hurst tools. Combi tool (spreader and cutter) weighs 53 pounds and the cutter 51 pounds but: roll up on the scene and no hydraulic pump or hoses. Pick up the tool and push one button; cutting or spreading in 30 seconds.

One of our guys is a retired Snap-On regional manager, and he was concerned that we might not get much life from a 4500 SCBA bottle. We carry 4 on the truck and I don’t see that we would run a tool long enough to be a problem, but I would like to not add another system to the truck. Then again, maybe we will find other uses for the air system. I just don’t want to make it too complicated.

Every time we go to a firefighting school we find some neat tool to stick in our bunker coat, until one day you realize that there is 8 pounds of stuff in your pockets and you clean it out.

You already have an air system on the truck...the brakes. It’s not ideal for heavy continuous use but maybe with another receiver tank if necessary surely it would suffice for this kind of use with some adaptation.

We had an air system on our heavy rescue truck with air tools including impacts and ratchets for use in industrial/agriculture rescue.
 
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tez929rr

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You already have an air system on the truck...the brakes. It’s not ideal for heavy continuous use but maybe with another receiver tank if necessary surely it would suffice for this kind of use with some adaptation.

We had an air system on our heavy rescue truck with air tools including impacts and ratchets for use in industrial/agriculture rescue.

Not on this truck.
 

californiamilleghia

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First , Thanks for doing your job ,

How long would you need to use the air chisel ?
That would be one of the first questions .

I think it would not be a regular tool if it was 30-40-50 pounds but still be good for your job and other jobs out in the field where you do not have 110v or compressed air ,

Thinking of that , is there even a 110v impact hammer thats not a jack hammer !
 

SeisMec

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Beryl, Utah
Adding a substantial gasoline driven compressor might open a lot of tool possibilities for you.

Even if your truck had airbrakes, I don't believe it would work that well. The rigs depicted in my avatar had 40 gallon reserve tanks and extra capacity compressors. A 1/2 air impact on just a few 1/2" bolts would pretty much exhaust the reserve tank. Revving up the engine to 2750 rpm (governed max) was about on a par with a high quality 20-30 gal tank box store compressor. Any significant number of bolts and the gasoline driven 40 gallon tank, Ingersoll Rand compressor on the service truck got fired up.
 
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rlitman

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You already have an air system on the truck...the brakes. It’s not ideal for heavy continuous use but maybe with another receiver tank if necessary surely it would suffice for this kind of use with some adaptation.

We had an air system on our heavy rescue truck with air tools including impacts and ratchets for use in industrial/agriculture rescue.

I think the primary reason for going battery is to get away from the tethering of a cord. Tying into the truck air in that sense is worse than using an SCBA which on its own is pretty portable. It will work when you can pull the truck up right next to the point of use, but for all those other times...

That's just an argument for battery haters, though. Something 5x heavier and larger than an air hammer isn't that big a deal, esp if the portability is valued over having to find a way to have air and run hoses.

It's similar to an engine driven demo saw - of course it's going to be larger and heavier than a 15A electric motor - it's got a small engine and gas tank hanging off the side of it.

First, I'm not a battery hater. My own experience with SDS tools is that the battery versions are often lighter and more powerful than their corded cousins (the same goes for impact wrenches).

Second, yes, that 5x is a huge deal. Look, I have a pneumatic chisel I can one-hand that can hold its own against a 70lb Bosch Brute that comes with a hand truck to move it around. If my lawn mower had to be 5x heavier, I'd be pushing around a loaded golf cart.

Third, that demo saw is actually a better example than you think. I have an AEG 14" electric demo saw (compare it to a Bosch 1365K). It runs the same blades as a gasoline powered 14" demo saw, has the same cut depth and nominally performs the same function with a tool of "similar" size and weight. For comparison, the Bosch weighs in at 31lbs, while a Stihl TS420 weighs in at 22.4lbs (wet; i.e. fully fueled). So at first glance you'd say they're comparable. And in fact, I'm quite happy with my electric saw. BUT, the gas saw turns the blade at TWICE the speed, and with almost THREE TIMES the actual power applied to the cut. For my part, I'm happy with a tool that's 1/3 heavier and less than half as powerful, since the job still gets done, but that's not an option for everyone.

So, let's make the same comparison with chisels.
The biggest brushless cordless SDS Max I can find in the DeWalt lineup is the 1-7/8" capacity unit. That has a stated 13.3 joules of impact energy, and weighs 40lbs.

71y8u1xEwlL._AC_SL640_.jpg


That actually edges out my CP717 hammer by a little bit of power, so yeah, I suppose you could use it in lieu of the chisel posted by the OP, but the next size smaller SDS Max tool in the lineup comes up short, and a 9x rivet hammer still kicks its ***, and is still WAY smaller.
 
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tez929rr

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To clear up some confusion, this rescue truck is built on a one ton chassis with a full length slide out tool bed. Pics in this thread: https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=415656

As you can imagine, it’s pretty full now. It has a good inverter and a shoreline connection so electrical stuff is not a problem (why I’d like a battery powered tool) but there is not really room for a compressor. Using the SCBA bottles is an acceptable addition.
 

theoldwizard1

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One of our guys is a retired Snap-On regional manager, and he was concerned that we might not get much life from a 4500 SCBA bottle. We carry 4 on the truck and I don’t see that we would run a tool long enough to be a problem,

The problem with using the SCBA bottle is you are taking them away from their original/primary intent. I will admit, having a "call" where the air hammer AND the SCBA are required simultaneously is not likely.

Figure out how to carry two more bottles and call it good !
 
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tez929rr

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The problem with using the SCBA bottle is you are taking them away from their original/primary intent. I will admit, having a "call" where the air hammer AND the SCBA are required simultaneously is not likely.

Figure out how to carry two more bottles and call it good !

We carry 45 minute bottles and spares already and have an air truck that is automatically dispatched to any structure fire and we can get it for a vehicle fire. We have never had a vehicle fire that went on long enough that 90 minutes of air wouldn’t be enough. Besides, once someone has used up a 45 minute bottle we put them straight into rehab.
 

Jlarson

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Those Ajax chisels are nice little rigs. I wouldn't be to worried about run time on a bottle unless I was using it to like make a inspection hole in a concrete structure or similar where you're having to chip on something heavy for extended periods.

Most stuff would probably be shorter, quick hits I'd think, like most regular air chisel use. Cutting pins and busting bolts, ripping sheet metal stuff like that right?
 

Leaflessshadetree

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A 45 minute 4500PSI bottle will run that chisel for a long time. Our department used to run them off 2200 PSI 20 minute bottles. I don't recall ever needing more than 1 even in training with several exercises.
 
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tez929rr

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A 45 minute 4500PSI bottle will run that chisel for a long time. Our department used to run them off 2200 PSI 20 minute bottles. I don't recall ever needing more than 1 even in training with several exercises.

Thanks for the great advice. We received it within a week of placing our order and trained with it Tuesday evening. We ran it pretty hard on about 1/3 of a bottle. I’d say I can’t wait to try it out for real but that would mean someone is having a really bad day.
 

username2

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If there is a cordless "air" hammer, it is a well kept secret because otherwise it would be one of the hottest tools out there.

Is there any such thing as a 'corded' one? By that I mean something roughly the same size or just a bit larger.
 
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