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Air Compressor Ampridge?

Wayfastwhitie440

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Alright here's the story. I bought a 60 gallon air compressor from Napa auto parts. Looks like a real nice compressor, its setup up for 110 or 220 well in the manual it says you need a 20amp breaker for the 110 setup so no problem the outlet is hooked up to a 20 amp breaker. Okay I got the compressor all hooked up and it started right up pressure built up and everything was fine. The next time I went to use it, it started up and after just a few seconds of running the motor sounded like it froze up and the lights flickered and the breaker popped. Okay I reset the breaker tried it again samething. So I call Napa and the give me a number to call and I get in touch with one of the techs for warranty and they ask what size breaker are you running and I say 20amp like it says in the manual and hes says you need to swap it out for a 40amp and in his words (rule of thumb is to always double the ampridge on what ever the device is because it draws almost double during start up) Well what little bit of experience Ive had with electrical, I do know that if the wire ain't gauged for that size breaker it will burn the wiring up before the breaker even thinks about tripping. Well I was wondering if anybody had any helpful comments on what I should do?
 
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PT Doc

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Your compressor ***** a lot more amps thn 40 for a few milliseconds but who knows. If you are going to go with 40 amp circuit then look at what the draw is for 220v and decide what is better for you.

My compressor pulls 23 full load amps and it was speculated that it ***** 175 amps for a very short period of time. Compressor manufacturer recommended a 50 amp circuit for this. That's what I did and I have no issues.
 
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sberry

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You can use a larger breaker, a 30 is common for this application but,,,, it must be on a dedicated circuit for this machine and not available for general use where other devices can be plugged in. Wire for this type of application is sized for the motor load not really for the breaker. This is common as explained in the thread that was quoted.
 
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Wayfastwhitie440

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This really didnt help because I already have a 50ft extension cord and its 12 or 10 gauge, I cant remember at this time but its weird how it worked and then the next time it didn't. The fun part about all this is its at my storage facility and I cant change anything about the wiring....How could I go about testing to see if the breaker is big enough or not? Or how many amps its Drawing? Thanks
 

theoldwizard1

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You can use a larger breaker, a 30A is common for this application but,,,, it must be on a dedicated circuit for this machine and not available for general use where other devices can be plugged in. Wire for this type of application is sized for the motor load not really for the breaker. This is common as explained in the thread that was quoted.

What he said ! :thumbup: :thumbup:

If the original breaker was 20A, and it was wired with 12/2, just pop a 30A breaker in there put child safety plugs in the other outlets on that circuit and you are good to go !
 

PT Doc

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So what is the hp rating on the motor? What does the fla say on the plaque on the motor?
 

theoldwizard1

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So what is the hp rating on the motor? What does the fla say on the plaque on the motor?

Stop beating a dead horse !

NEC allows an oversized breaker to prevent "nuisance" trips if the circuit is dedicated to a specific usage.
 

kythri

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Stop beating a dead horse !

NEC allows an oversized breaker to prevent "nuisance" trips if the circuit is dedicated to a specific usage.

Sure would be nice if someone could cite the specific section of the code that allows this.

Maybe it was done in the other thread, I'll go check...

Edit: And here it is:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1996411&postcount=110

And here's a post with a link to the code itself (Oregon, but still the NEC/NFPA deal) so you can look:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2020790&postcount=127
 
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pipsters

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This really didnt help because I already have a 50ft extension cord and its 12 or 10 gauge, I cant remember at this time but its weird how it worked and then the next time it didn't. The fun part about all this is its at my storage facility and I cant change anything about the wiring....How could I go about testing to see if the breaker is big enough or not? Or how many amps its Drawing? Thanks

Just reading this it appears as though our issues are completely different. Listening to you tell what happened, and then reading how you have it hooked to an extension cord, makes me think your compressor isn't getting enough juice. Mine was getting too much. Looks like two different issues to me. My compressor never struggled to run, yours did.

No way in hell a 60 gallon compressor will run off a 20 amp 110v outlet. That is the domain of the smaller 120v compressors of under 2hp, 5 cfm. I bet it's 20 amp 220v.
 

C lectric

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What info is on the motor nameplate? If it is dual voltage it will show that and the amperage at both voltages.
What is the horsepower?

Post all of it and clearly so it's easy to read. That will tell all and then you can get some solid advice. Without that everyone is guessing.

The tank or receiver capacity doesn't matter at all in this matter.
 
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pipsters

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What info is on the motor nameplate? If it is dual voltage it will show that and the amperage at both voltages.
What is the horsepower?

Post all of it and clearly so it's easy to read. That will tell all and then you can get some solid advice. Without that everyone is guessing.

The tank or receiver capacity doesn't matter at all in this matter.

Sure but what company puts a 110v 20 amp motor on a 60 gallon tank?
 

C lectric

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I agree, but it doesn't matter. He has a problem and the only way he will get some real answers are if he posts the information. It may even come down to returning the unit if possible if he can't get it to run.
 
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Wayfastwhitie440

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Okay maybe this will help out some with whats going on... The only other thing I can figure is maybe I have it setup for the 230 instead of the 115. Im going to go look at the size gauge extension cord later today but its suppose to beable to keep up with the load...Thanks again
 

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PT Doc

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What's up with motor plates not listing the hp of the motor? Guess they hope you don't figure it out and then compare to another compressor that actually does list hp rating.

Did the compressor come wired with a plug or did you have to do this?
 
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C lectric

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I don't know where you stand now on this but here goes.

I'm going from the MOTOR nameplate, not the other tag, since the motor is the motor mfgr. Your motor needs 19 amps at 120V so a 20 A circuit will not cut it. If because of pulley ratios, the motor does only draw at full rated load, the 15A so much the better.

I think it started and ran the first time because the tank was empty and the motor was not started against any kind of load. Your machine should have a relieving valve that dumps air pressure in the line between the pump and the checkvalve at the tank upon shutdown. There should also be a check valve to stop pressure bleedback. However after that first pump up even with those two item working properly now the motor is pumping against a serious load almost immediately , the tank pressure, and it needs the full current.

The motor will only draw the full load current when it is working hard which would have been the case as the machine came up to pressure the first time but the build up would have been much slower so the breaker held for enough time. The second time pumpup would have pulled close to full current right from the start. and thus the breaker would be in overload fast and the reaction time less. The breaker may also have been still warm if the restart was soon enough.

Note a typical household circuit breaker has a time curve. They work on heat buildup. There are published specs that will show this. Small, short time overloads can often allow the breaker to not trip. They will still fast trip on short circuits. I think that's why your machine worked the first time. The overload time was of short enough duration that the breaker held . However, the next time the full current was needed immediately and the time to trip was exceeded.

To boot motors will draw several times the rated current at startup, typical is 4X but I've seen higher which makes your problem worse.

FOR MOTOR STARTING the code in your area should allow a bigger breaker, up to 1.75X the motor FLA and wire size for breakers, if I remember correctly, which should allow that motor to start. I'm assuming you used 12 ga wire, although better would have been 10ga. As said above if the motor does really work on 15A in that useage then a 30A may do ok. For the 19A rating I don't think you will find a 35A breaker so the code will sometime allow the next size up [a 40A] IF the motor will not start reliably on the calculated correct breaker. So try the 30A first adn if there is still trouble then go to the 40A.

If you can convert that circuit to 230V the rated motor current will drop to 9.5A. You will need a 2 pole breaker or a double breaker and the panel room to change it which may entail juggling some other breakers to get the side by side room to do it. A 20A 2 pole should start that motor handily. Also motors generally work better on the higher voltage.

DO NOT JUST INSTALL 2 SINGLE POLE BREAKERS__DANGEROUS. without the proper ties as an overload or short may only trip one leaving the other live to wake someone up or injure them.

If you are the least bit uncomfortable with this then get someone in that really knows, an electrician, and show and explain what you need/want.

Note that on a short circuit the allowed size up of the breaker for starting will still trip and fast. That's why the size up is allowed because the startup motor current is short term, usually a few seconds, and the time curve will still trip it if the motor doesn't start, but just takes a bit longer.

Good luck,
I hope this isn't too fuzzy
 

C lectric

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I don't know where you stand now on this but here goes.

I'm going from the MOTOR nameplate, not the other tag, since the motor is the motor mfgr. Your motor needs 19 amps at 120V so a 15 A circuit will not cut it. If because of pulley ratios, the motor does only draw at full rated load, the 15A so much the better.

I think it started and ran the first time because the tank was empty and the motor was not started against any kind of load. Your machine should have a relieving valve that dumps air pressure in the line between the pump and the checkvalve at the tank upon shutdown. There should also be a check valve to stop pressure bleedback. However after that first pump up even with those two item working properly now the motor is pumping against a serious load almost immediately , the tank pressure, and it needs the full current.

The motor will only draw the full load current when it is working hard which would have been the case as the machine came up to pressure the first time but the build up would have been much slower so the breaker held for enough time. The second time pumpup would have pulled close to full current right from the start. and thus the breaker would be in overload fast and the reaction time less. The breaker may also have been still warm if the restart was soon enough.

Note a typical household circuit breaker has a time curve. They work on heat buildup. There are published specs that will show this. Small, short time overloads can often allow the breaker to not trip. They will still fast trip on short circuits. I think that's why your machine worked the first time. The overload time was of short enough duration that the breaker held . However, the next time the full current was needed immediately and the time to trip was exceeded.

To boot motors will draw several times the rated current at startup, typical is 4X but I've seen higher which makes your problem worse.

FOR MOTOR STARTING the code in your area should allow a bigger breaker, up to 1.75X the motor FLA and wire size for breakers, if I remember correctly, which should allow that motor to start. I'm assuming you used 12 ga wire, although better would have been 10ga. As said above if the motor does really work on 15A in that useage then a 30A may do ok. For the 19A rating I don't think you will find a 35A breaker so the code will sometime allow the next size up [a 40A] IF the motor will not start reliably on the calculated correct breaker. So try the 30A first adn if there is still trouble then go to the 40A.

If you can convert that circuit to 230V the rated motor current will drop to 9.5A. You will need a 2 pole breaker or a double breaker and the panel room to change it which may entail juggling some other breakers to get the side by side room to do it. A 20A 2 pole should start that motor handily. Also motors generally work better on the higher voltage.

DO NOT JUST INSTALL 2 SINGLE POLE BREAKERS__DANGEROUS. without the proper ties as an overload or short may only trip one leaving the other live to wake someone up or injure them.

If you are the least bit uncomfortable with this then get someone in that really knows, an electrician, and show and explain what you need/want.

Note that on a short circuit the allowed size up of the breaker for starting will still trip and fast. That's why the size up is allowed because the startup motor current is short term, usually a few seconds, and the time curve will still trip it if the motor doesn't start, but just takes a bit longer.

Good luck,
I hope this isn't too fuzzy
 

G_P

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Ditch the extension cord. Especially if it really is a 50 footer like you said.

Also why does the tag on the tank list it as 15FLA but the tag on the motor lists it drawing 19A???
 

pipsters

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FOR MOTOR STARTING the code in your area should allow a bigger breaker, up to 1.75X the motor FLA and wire size for breakers, if I remember correctly, which should allow that motor to start. I'm assuming you used 12 ga wire, although better would have been 10ga. As said above if the motor does really work on 15A in that useage then a 30A may do ok. For the 19A rating I don't think you will find a 35A breaker so the code will sometime allow the next size up [a 40A] IF the motor will not start reliably on the calculated correct breaker. So try the 30A first adn if there is still trouble then go to the 40A.

Now [someone else, see below] told me the opposite though. Are you saying that you could run a 30 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire in this situation? Because I have a similar situation for which [someone else said] if you run a 30 amp breaker you must run 10 gauge wire and a 30 amp receptacle. I am genuinely confused.

I had the situation with the 1.8hp 120v compressor tripping the 20 amp breaker on start, but the 30 amp was OK. But I ran 12g wire and used a 20 amp receptacle, all on a dedicated circuit.

ETA: Nope wasn't you, it was someone else. Sorry.

You do sound like you know what you are talking about though. Someone else said that it wasn't code.

This guy, in my other thread, who sounds like an electrician by his writing, says that adding a 30 amp breaker to account for the motor starting is not code. You would need to run 10 gauge wire and a 30 amp recep.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2022267#post2022267
 
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dumper

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the weakest link, between the service entrance and the outlet in the wall has to be the circuit breaker at the end of the line- that's what it is there for- to break the circuit if there is a problem . If you put a 30A breaker on 12 gauge wire, the wire becomes the weakest link. Period. Do not do this. If you can't figure this out, call your insurance company... I mean... an electrician.
 
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Wayfastwhitie440

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So far really haven't figured anything out. But I did get the compressor relocated right next to the outlet and I'am going to get just a few feet of 10 gauge wire to hook it up and get rid of the extension cord and see what happens. If that doesnt fix it then I who knows because Im not allowed to rewire anything because it is at my shed unit... Thanks for all the input. More is welcome...
 
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Wayfastwhitie440

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Alright well I have some good news I moved the compressor from the back of the shed to the front of the shed and set it right next to the outlet and plugged a 5ft cord in and got the 50ft out of the picture and everything is working now. Cant remember who said to take it out but thanks for everyones help.....
 
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