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Air Compressor Stages/Phases?

D45

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I am going to soon retire my 110v 6HP 33 gallon Craftsman to light duty work

IMG_20140718_183730_437_zps9zqonocn.jpg



I want to find a used 60 gallon (or 80 if its cheap enough!) 220v vertical compressor

What does Stage 1, 2 and 3 mean?

What about Phase 1, 2, and 3?

Also, why are some 220v compressors 15amp and some are 30amps? Does the amp rating mean it is better?

Thanks!
 
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wild cowboy

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STAGES:

single stage is what you have now, typically just one piston, only builds 125psi or so of pressure.

two stage puts the previously compressed air into another compression chamber, often after an intercooler, and then compresses it further up to 175 psi typically. This is better for industrial use or a larger shop.

I have never seen a 3-stage compressor that either of us could afford, so forget that!


PHASES:

single phase electric motor is what you have now, and what you want on your next compressor - that is what 99.9% of homes and most businesses are wired for.

large industrial environments are often wired 3-phase, which saves some electric cost, but I doubt you will ever need a 3-phase compressor, unless you inherit a factory. 3-phase is often found with 480V electric service.

there is no such thing as 2-phase electric any more (except in Philly, but they are weird anyway - lol).

buying a 3-phase compressor on ebay or craigslist is often not the great deal that it first seems, because you will have to either replace the large motor with a single phase version, or else use a phase converter, and neither of these two ideas are cheap!


AMPERAGE:

larger pumps need larger motors to power them, and this requires more AMPS (electrical current) - so if you need a lot of cubic feet per minute, you will need higher horsepower and hence, higher amperage

high HP/high AMP compressors are mostly needed in body shops or in shops where a number of techs are sharing the same shop compressor simultaneously.
 
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Scimonetti

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I can't answer your questions about 220 or stages but I will talk about amps. There is no such thing as a true 6hp compressor capable of running off household 110. Manufacturers hugely inflate that for marketing, but the largest true HP motor you can run off a 20 amp breaker is around 1 3/4. The amount of amps it draws when running (without taking efficiency and stuff into account) directly correlates with MOTOR hp. More amps drawn equals better.

Then you also have to take pump HP into account but I don't know about that. I'm sure somebody already explained it by the time I finish typing on my phone.

I almost bought an old 2hp planer this summer and after research learned this and that I couldn't run it in the basement!
 

larry_g

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. The amount of amps it draws when running (without taking efficiency and stuff into account) directly correlates with MOTOR hp. More amps drawn equals better.

!

Lets clarify this a bit. Power =watts=horsepower. So amps x volts = watts. So a 120 volt motor drawing 20 amps is ~ = 240 volt motor drawing 10 amps. So when comparing power you have to take into consideration AMPS and VOLTS.

lg
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KinzeMech

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STAGES:

single stage is what you have now, typically just one piston, only builds 125psi or so of pressure.

two stage puts the previously compressed air into another combustion chamber, often after an intercooler, and then compresses it further up to 175 psi typically. This is better for industrial use or a larger shop.

I know what you mean, but just have to ask...where did you find a two stage compressor with a combustion chamber?
 

djb2

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The advantage of multi-stage compressors is better mechanical advantage and efficiency. The mechanical advantage isn't obvious, but it's smoother to design a compressor so that it doesn't compress more than about a 8:1 ratio. So you stack two in a row and design a crank so that the drive motor has a more even load.

The thermal efficiency is improved because it's easier to compress cool air. As you compress the air it heats up. If you compress the air in a single stroke, the compressor has to work against both the compressed air and the extra pressure from the heat. When the compression is spread over multiple strokes, the intermediate air has a chance to cool down a bit, taking less energy for the second round.

Most residential electric service is single phase: 120/240V from the pole transformer, with 'one wire' (plus ground). This is like running a single cylinder engine -- the motor doesn't has a natural direction, and it won't start on its own if it's in just the wrong direction. So there is an extra circuit, capacitor or winding that creates two phase power (a weak extra phase that kicks the motor in the right direction).

Most industrial service is three phase: 208V/415V coming from three wires (plus an optional ground). This is very convenient for running high power motors. With three phases the motor has a natural direction and delivers near-constant torque through the whole rotation for consistent starting, smooth running and low noise. Think of it as a smooth-running V8 or V12 engine.

There is such as thing as two phase power, but it's rarely used. It's like a Harley, uneven power delivery and lots of vibration and noise. Two phase power still needs three wires, and winding motors is a PITA, so it has only disadvantages compared to three phases.
 

wild cowboy

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Lets clarify this a bit. Power =watts=horsepower. So amps x volts = watts. So a 120 volt motor drawing 20 amps is ~ = 240 volt motor drawing 10 amps. So when comparing power you have to take into consideration AMPS and VOLTS.

lg
no neat sig line

this is a very important point larry_g raises - 10 amp 120V is definitely NOT comparable to 10 amp 240V - it would be half the power (actually a tiny amount less than half, as 240V is a bit more efficient)
 
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D45

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I see a lot of 60-80 gallon compressors for sale.......some have single cylinder pumps, some have two, and some have three cylinders

Are the single piston pumps going to work too hard and will the 2/3 cylinder pumps just run smoother and cooler?
 

wild cowboy

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I see a lot of 60-80 gallon compressors for sale.......some have single cylinder pumps, some have two, and some have three cylinders

Are the single piston pumps going to work too hard and will the 2/3 cylinder pumps just run smoother and cooler?

all else being equal, I prefer more cylinders per stage, but I think you will find that most compressors with multiple cylinders per stage will end up being 3-phase and not useful for most folks unless converted.

please note: number of cylinders does not equal number of stages necessarily! - but number of cylinders will always be >= number of stages!

so if you see a single cylinder pump, then by definition, it is a single stage compressor
 
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KinzeMech

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I highly doubt you are seeing single cylinder pumps on compressors in that size range. What it is more likely you are seeing is a two cylinder pump, in an "inline two" sort of cylinder block configuration.
 

CNGsaves

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Let's clarify . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . there IS . . . 2 phase available . .
. . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . It's in Washington, DC.
















EVERYONE there is . . . . . 2 Faced . . . . . . Bahahahahaha !! :D
 
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D45

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Ok so all the 3 phase compressors I can't even consider........some are dirt cheap too. Oh well!
 

wild cowboy

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Ok so all the 3 phase compressors I can't even consider........some are dirt cheap too. Oh well!
well SURE you can consider them! - just make sure to factor in the price of a new single phase motor and the time involved in retrofitting it! (not much time, actually, if the RPM is matched)

and speaking of motors, I personally consider a motor RPM of 1725-1755 as a must-have. The compressors with motor rpm of 3450 or in that range are just loud and annoying and don't last as long!
 
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Scimonetti

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Lets clarify this a bit. Power =watts=horsepower. So amps x volts = watts. So a 120 volt motor drawing 20 amps is ~ = 240 volt motor drawing 10 amps. So when comparing power you have to take into consideration AMPS and VOLTS.

lg
no neat sig line
Yep, that's what I meant. I guess I didn't make it clear I was still talking about 110.

Thanks for clarifying it, when I was looking up info about this subject you guys here made everything make so much sense!
 

CNGsaves

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Likely skip 3 phase as you'd be removing the 3 phase electric motor and purchasing a replacement 1 phase motor 5 HP . . .
. . . . likely Baldor, Leeson, AO Smith . . in the $100 to $350 range.

For your needs, I'd stick with normal 60 gal 5 HP single phase compressor. Likely will be all the air you'll ever need in lifetime.

To get idea of what brands are out there and styles of 60 gallon (could be 3 HP to 5 HP . . . . and whether horizontal tank vs vertical tank), do some looking around at:
http://www.aircompressorsdirect.com/tools/60-gallon-single-stage-air-compressors.html

Use Google to search CL nationwide with:
. . . . 60 gal compressor site:craigslist.org
 
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D45

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Thanks for the info, again!

Single phase 60 gallon tank it is..........do they even make single phase 80 gallon compressors? 80 is over kill, but if the price is right I'd jump on it
 
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wild cowboy

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all else being equal, the two cylinder (likely 2 stage) would be preferred for heavier duty needs, but Puma is the sleaziest Chinese junk out there, so be careful on that. I would put them on par with Harbor Freight, you need the extended warranty - lol

some great old compressor brands are: Quincy, Ingersoll Rand, FS Curtis, Schultz, Dayton, Speedaire, and several others.

however, I would skip most of the Quincys and IR's because they have both come out with cheaper built single phase "homeowner" compressors that do not live up to the quality of the big 3-phase 2-stage compressors that built their great reputations, but still come with the big price premium.
 
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KinzeMech

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Thanks for the info, again!

Single phase 60 gallon tank it is..........do they even make single phase 80 gallon compressors? 80 is over kill, but if the price is right I'd jump on it

Do you mean single phase, or single stage?

I think you mean single stage, and yes, they do make single stage 80 gallon compressors, although 80 gallon compressors will usually be two stage. 60 gallon compressors are more often single stage, although either size is available in either configuration from some manufacturers.
 

wild cowboy

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Thanks for the info, again!

Single phase 60 gallon tank it is..........do they even make single phase 80 gallon compressors? 80 is over kill, but if the price is right I'd jump on it

yes, there are a ton of single phase 80 gallon compressors, mostly 2-stage, and 2-stage is nice! - especially if you do something like auto body work, those tools **** air like crazy.
 

wild cowboy

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I think I would go for the Kobalt, all of these are cheap Chinese compressors, but the Kobalt has been getting really good reviews - and Lowes has bigger buying power than air compressors direct, that is the main reason theirs is cheaper. I would also find one of those 10% Lowes project stater coupons off ebay to make it $450

these are all single cylinder, single stage, single phase compressors you are looking at

one thing for sure, ditch that **** Chinese oil that comes with any of these compressors, a good synthetic such as Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30 would be a huge improvement.
 
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D45

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Plus all the others only have a 1 year warranty

The Kobalt has a 3 year!
 

wild cowboy

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like I mentioned before - I would avoid the Quincy and IR low cost compressors, it is like if Snap-On just threw their name on something cheap to make a fast buck.

The Quincy's and IR's that are worthy of their reputation cost as much as a new car almost!
 

scooz14

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in my opinion when it comes to compressors, overkill it better then undersizing. Cast iron pumps are way better then aluminum pumps. 2 stage is light years better then single stage both in efficiency and db levels. and anything that cant do more then 13cfm at 90psi isnt worth looking at
 

Major Ramifications

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I think I would go for the Kobalt, all of these are cheap Chinese compressors, but the Kobalt has been getting really good reviews - and Lowes has bigger buying power than air compressors direct, that is the main reason theirs is cheaper. I would also find one of those 10% Lowes project stater coupons off ebay to make it $450

these are all single cylinder, single stage, single phase compressors you are looking at

one thing for sure, ditch that **** Chinese oil that comes with any of these compressors, a good synthetic such as Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30 would be a huge improvement.

They are not Chinese compressors, but the pumps may be made in China.
As far as the oil, you should not use detergent oil in an air compressor pump.
 

Charles (in GA)

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The smallest single stage compressors are usually one cylinder, but to make things smoother and easier to manufacture and a whole bunch of other factors, larger single stage compressors usually have two cylinders (of the same size) either in a inline or v-twin configuration.

Two stage compressors will have at least two cylinders, frequently cast in the same block, (but the two cylinders are different diameters) and the difference is easily seen, or they may be v-twin configuration.

Three and four cylinder compressors are also found, and may be of a single stage or two stage variety. You have to see how they are constructed and cylinder sizes to determine if they are single or two stage.

Charles
 

MN Falcon

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I had the motor go out in a Home Depot Husky 60 Gal. (made by CH) I am learning that the older CH 5HP rating was no accurate. I picked up an older CH of basically the same specs from my uncle hoping that I could use the motor off his (His motor is no good either unfortunately) Both motors are rated at 15AMPs 220V which if you look at compressor motors (not "special" compressor motors) the 15AMPs seems to be more in the 3HP range.

Based on this I would clarify any HP questions by comparing AMP rating to do a better job of comparing motor rating. Output of the pump is probably the first thing to look at though. I haven't done anything with either of my compressors yet, I was thinking about buying the small Quincy 2 stage from Northern Tool :

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200350475_200350475
 

wild cowboy

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They are not Chinese compressors, but the pumps may be made in China.
As far as the oil, you should not use detergent oil in an air compressor pump.
They are pretty much all Chinese parts, all though some are assembled here in USA or Mexico to save shipping costs.

You can use modern synthetic oils in these compressors, as they have excellent anti-foaming agents, and foaming was the issue years ago when not using detergent oils in compressors and small engines was sound advice, but oils have changed a lot in the last 20 years.

More expert oil advice is available at BobIsTheOilGuy.com - these guys know lubricants like we know bench grinders and vises! :thumbup:
 

KinzeMech

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You can use modern synthetic oils in these compressors, as they have excellent anti-foaming agents, and foaming was the issue years ago when not using detergent oils in compressors and small engines was sound advice, but oils have changed a lot in the last 20 years.

Are you sure about that? I've always been told you should use detergent oil on a pressure lubricated engine where you want the detergent to hold dirt in suspension to carry it to the filter, and you should use non-detergent in a splash lube application where there is no filter, and you want the dirt to fall out of suspension, to the bottom of the oil sump.

Air compressor oil barely costs any more than motor oil, it only takes a quart or two, and (for me) it will be years between changes.
 

MN Falcon

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Wild Cowboy. I have also heard to use synthetic oils in the compressor, but haven't yet. I was looking through posts on BobIsTheOilGuy and all I have found so far is people saying just use compressor oil because it has better additives for compressors. A lot of guys say "I have used X motor oil in my compressor for years with no issues" though. And others say the same thing KinzeMech says. They guys over there seem don't seem to have any "expert" info just a bunch of guys with opinions like us. Do you have anything specific from over there that we should read on the compressor subject?
 
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