To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Air Hammer - Tank Size

GeoBruin

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
3,744
I would forget the maths, from real world experience you tend be 110 to 120psi static to have good 90 dynamic at tool and that on short hose and minimal fittings, start using hose reals and overlooking awful restrictive regulators on some compressors, poor or faulty hoe connectors and drop can get ridiculous .
I have used a 30 gallon 120V and it will run a decent air hammer pretty well .
If you want it more capable then the twin compressor setup is pretty cheap and effective way get usable air ability on common 120V supply .
Don't just add extra tank capacity, add the extra pump as that extra 5cfm is what will make the real difference .
You can do it dirt cheap with the direct drives but being selective on the belt driven options tends result in longer lasting and maintainable machines .
I had 2 out of HD sale and they more than good enough for medium+ home use ...
The twin setup really is quite impressive to cost and power supply simplicity for air performance you can get out of them .
Yes, you could "forget the maths", or you could adjust the math to better match your actual inputs. Adjusting to 120 psi static pressure still yields well over 30 seconds of regulated output.

Also, a restrictive regulator is going to limit flow from the tank outlet but once you measure your regulator pressure at the gauge, it will not contribute to any additional pressure drop down stream.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Schurkey

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2011
Messages
2,370
Location
The Seasonally Frozen Wastelands
Decades ago, I bought a 20 gallon/2 hp/120 psi compressor. Ran a CP air hammer trying to remove rivets holding ball joints on control arms.

I got three seconds of hammering, and then I waited for the tank to recharge.

I cannot believe that.
Neither could I, and I was standing right there.

Fully-charged tank, three seconds of hammering, and the compressor kicked on because the tank was at/below 100 psi. Therefore, the air hammer was below 80 psi. The only time the tool was getting it's full 90 psi of rated input pressure was the first second or two after the compressor shut off.

Mind you, I had removed the regulator assembly that came with that portable air compressor because it was restricting flow too much; and at that point all I had was 50 feet of 3/8 hose.
 

GeoBruin

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
3,744
Neither could I, and I was standing right there.

Fully-charged tank, three seconds of hammering, and the compressor kicked on because the tank was at/below 100 psi. Therefore, the air hammer was below 80 psi. The only time the tool was getting it's full 90 psi of rated input pressure was the first second or two after the compressor shut off.

Mind you, I had removed the regulator assembly that came with that portable air compressor because it was restricting flow too much; and at that point all I had was 50 feet of 3/8 hose.
That works out to 73 cfm...
 

Jswain

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2013
Messages
2,463
Location
Calgary, AB
I could believe 7 or 8 seconds, which when you're hammering it probably feels like 3.

I feel the 30 seconds run time on a 30 gallon tank 150psi-110psi will be a pretty close estimate. Down to 110 is likely still giving you 90@ the tool and that's based on the tool using ~20cfm which is likely is
 
Last edited:
OP
A

alex123

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
177
Location
USA
die grinder for longer run times and sand blasting be your biggest air consumption.
tandem compressor setup is great way go, use one for light jobs and switch to 2 only when needed .
Time delay relay is best way control second motor, lot of layout options you can do with 2 units to keep footprint small .
If you can see a good deal on 2 decent belt drive units buy um and get to work .
Yeah, I'll probably have to do that. Thanks for the input, and the heads up on the time delay.
 
OP
A

alex123

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
177
Location
USA
Then you'll be using very short blasts, I think a smaller compressor and tank will do that just fine. I don't think you need the extra tank, but it never hurts to have more air available. Recharge times will take a lot longer of course.
But if it's two tanks, each of which has it's own pump, why would it take longer?
 
OP
A

alex123

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
177
Location
USA
Use as short of a hose as you can 3/8" preferably under 25ft, hi flow fittings & set the regulator at at least 125psi. If it is lacking power setup like this the regulator may be restricting flow if it has a small one that comes on the compressor.

This will consume more air but it will make sure it is running at full power so hopefully the bursts will be nice and short.

If you **** around and set the regulator to 90psi, have a 50ft 3/8 hose and **** fittings your experience will likely be poor.
Yeah, my garage is pretty small and 25ft will do fine. Out of curiosity, what would happen if I went to a 1/2" hose, all else kept the same?
 
OP
A

alex123

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
177
Location
USA
How many times does it need to be said yes, it will work?

Seems like a case of information constipation

Clearly, you haven't been reading the mixed feedback provided on this thread.
 

Jswain

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2013
Messages
2,463
Location
Calgary, AB
Yeah, my garage is pretty small and 25ft will do fine. Out of curiosity, what would happen if I went to a 1/2" hose, all else kept the same?
Not much on regular air tools up to a half inch impact gun. A 25ft hose is perfect as there is little pressure drop with 3/8 so you will gain very little performance going to 1/2 and it is kind of a pain to deal with/couplers are tough to hook/unhook.

A good video showing the little gains going to 1/2":
 
Last edited:
OP
A

alex123

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
177
Location
USA
How about some cold hard math?

Assumptions:

- Air hammer actual consumption under load = 15 cfm (based on Ingersoll Rand 121 Super Duty Air Hammer
- Air hammer is attached to compressor with a 25' 3/8" hose

Maths:

According to the air flow pressure calculator on the Gates website, you're only losing 3.03 psi with a 50' 3/8" hose assuming a regulated pressure of 90CFM and a flow of 15 cfm. Assuming you will adjust your regulator to compensate for this and other losses, let's assume your regulator gauge will read 95 psi static pressure.

To calculate the volume of air you compressor will hold when at max pressure, we'll use Boyle's law. Specifically, we'll use the Boyle's law calculator from Omnicalculator. A 30 gallon compressor tank will hold 40.82 cubic feet of air at 150 psi. using the same calculation, we see the tank will hold about 25.85 cubic feet at 95 psi. That's a difference of about 15 cubic feet. It just so happens we're consuming air at 15 cubic feet per one minute, so you'll get almost exactly 1 minute before your tank drops below the regulated pressure. But that assumes the pump isn't running.

If we assume your compressor kicks in at 115 psi, we can calculate that the tank holds 31.29 cubic feet of air at 115 psi. So draining the tank from 150 psi to 115 psi would take 38 seconds. Then the pump kicks in and reduces your effective drain rate from 15 cfm to 10 cfm (since you pump makes about 5 cfm) so it would take an additional 32 seconds to drain the tank down to 95 psi.

So all in all, you're looking at 1 minute 10 seconds of hammering before you drop out of regulation and probably a good few more seconds before the efficacy of hammer really starts to decrease.

Cheers!
Very VERY well explained! Thank you much! I wanted to play around with the numbers using the calculator you linked but was unsuccessful in doing so. Can you please provide further details regarding what figures you used for Boyle's law formula. I'm sorry, math is not a strong suite for me.
 
OP
A

alex123

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
177
Location
USA
Decades ago, I bought a 20 gallon/2 hp/120 psi compressor. Ran a CP air hammer trying to remove rivets holding ball joints on control arms.

I got three seconds of hammering, and then I waited for the tank to recharge. Took all damn day to pop the ball joints out of the arms. Next purchase was an oxy-acetylene torch.

You've looking at a marginally larger tank, and additional air pressure. Both are good. For ME, that's not good enough. For you...maybe.

3 seconds of hammering on a 20 gallon tank? That just seems... well, not normal.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
OP
A

alex123

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
177
Location
USA
I would forget the maths, from real world experience you tend be 110 to 120psi static to have good 90 dynamic at tool and that on short hose and minimal fittings, start using hose reals and overlooking awful restrictive regulators on some compressors, poor or faulty hoe connectors and drop can get ridiculous .
I have used a 30 gallon 120V and it will run a decent air hammer pretty well .
If you want it more capable then the twin compressor setup is pretty cheap and effective way get usable air ability on common 120V supply .
Don't just add extra tank capacity, add the extra pump as that extra 5cfm is what will make the real difference .
You can do it dirt cheap with the direct drives but being selective on the belt driven options tends result in longer lasting and maintainable machines .
I had 2 out of HD sale and they more than good enough for medium+ home use .
The twin setup really is quite impressive to cost and power supply simplicity for air performance you can get out of them .
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by not just doubling tank capacity, but add the extra pump. Don't I need to add the second compressor (tank and pump) to get the extra cfm? Or are you suggesting a setup with two pumps and one tank?
 
OP
A

alex123

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
177
Location
USA
Not much on regular air tools up to a half inch impact gun. A 25ft hose is perfect as there is little pressure drop with 3/8 so you will gain very little performance going to 1/2 and it is kind of a pain to deal with/couplers are tough to hook/unhook.

A good video showing the little gains going to 1/2":

Many thanks my friend... 3/8" it is! :)
 

Mr_B

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Messages
5,378
Location
Reading
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by not just doubling tank capacity, but add the extra pump. Don't I need to add the second compressor (tank and pump) to get the extra cfm? Or are you suggesting a setup with two pumps and one tank?
A lot are suggesting you just add tank capacity which not that beneficial on a small cfm output pump.
I'm just merely stating 2 complete units best way go as the cfm output is a critical part of it and makes a decent low cost 120V air solution .
3/8 hose about best balance for performance and handling compromise, it what I use in my auto shop 95% of the time .
Keeping air hose minimal length is big part of better tool running and no real hassle from hose line everywhere, even in a small shop you may benefit from a minimal hard line manifold in 1/2" with a couple drop offs to plug in shorter quality hose"
Also an option run air straight from tank bypassing regulator be useful as sometime running a decent air impact getting 110-120psi dynamic can up performance considerably getting most out of tool and getting job jobbed no faffing about .
Other main thing is buy the right air tools, you can get very good pro usable tools for sensible money, don't rely too much on big brand names as lot of the best current air innovation is coming out of taiwan with a bit of western engineering ideas evolving it further .
 
Last edited:

GeoBruin

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
3,744
Very VERY well explained! Thank you much! I wanted to play around with the numbers using the calculator you linked but was unsuccessful in doing so. Can you please provide further details regarding what figures you used for Boyle's law formula. I'm sorry, math is not a strong suite for me.
Oops. Double post. Disregard
 
Last edited:

GeoBruin

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
3,744
Sorry, I didn't "show my work" as I didn't know how much background you have on the topic. In short, we want to know how much air your compressor holds at full pressure (150psi), and how much it holds at the pressure you have the regulator set at to run your air hammer (100? 110?) so we can subtract the difference and figure out how much air you will consume before the tank pressure drops below the regulated pressure. To get your total air storage at 150 PSI:

- Determine the volume of your tank in cubic feet: You have a 30 gallon tank. Assuming those are US liquid gallons, there are 7.48052 gallons in 1 cubic foot. So we divide 30 by 7.48052 to get 4.01 rounded to 4.
- Use Boyle's Law to determine the amount of air you can store in those 4 cubic feet at an given pressure: Boyle's law states that a gas's pressure (that is, the pressure it exerts on it's container) is inversely proportional to the volume assuming the actual amount of gas (molecules) and the temperature remain constant. You are going to experience some temperature change, but not enough to really impact the outcome. Using some algebra/substitutions and some overall simplification, we arrive at a very useful formula for comparing the pressure/volume variables in two different scenarios which can be expressed as P1V1=P2V2. In other words, as long as everything else is held constant, the product of a given pressure and volume in a system remains the same as any other combination of pressure and volume.

Our goal is to determine the volume of atmospheric pressure air (pulled in through the compressor's inlet) that will be squeezed into your compressor tank once your tank pressure reads 150 PSI. We know 3 out of the 4 variables we need, and we can solve for the 4th. we have:

- P1 (atmospheric pressure) which we will assume is 14.7 PSI at sea level. If you live in the mountains, this will be slightly different.
-V1 (volume of atmospheric pressure air) - this is what we're trying to calculate.
-P2 (final pressure) is 150 PSI
-V2 (final volume) is the 4 cubic feet we calculated previously for your compressor's tank.

So P1(14.7) x V1(X) = P2(150) x V2(4) or 600/14.7 which equals 40.82. Now that you know how it works, you can use the calculator I mentioned before to get the same results by just plugging in your variables.

So no you know you are compressing 40.82 cubic feet of atmospheric air into your tank at 150 PSI. If you do this exact same thing over again but instead use the lower pressure at which you want to set your regulator for P2, you will get a lower volume. For example, using 110PSI, you will get 29.93 cubic feet. The difference between these two numbers (40.82 - 29.93 = 10.89) is the volume of air in cubic feet that is flowing out of the tank, through the hose and through your tool from the time you squeeze the trigger until the tank pressure reaches the regulated pressure. If you know your rate of consumption (estimated CFM of the tool), you can calculate the time it will take to flow that much air. If your tool happened to consume air at a rate of exactly 10.89 CFM, it would take exactly 1 minute. If your tool consumes air at double that rate (21.78 CFM), it would take half the time (30 seconds) and so on. To make this math easier, you can use the CFM and Pump Up calculator (specifically, the pump up calculator) on the Airgastech website. Note that if you plug in the correct numbers, you will get a "negative" time since you are actually "pumping down" rather than up.
 

Terra Nova

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Messages
4,213
Location
Michigan
I have a 30 gallon Husky compressor with ≈5.5 CFM at 90 psi and 135 psi max. It runs an air hammer just fine for my hobbyist needs.
 
Last edited:

csp

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Messages
5,719
Location
Franktown, CO
Clearly, you haven't been reading the mixed feedback provided on this thread.
Oh I've read it. I also see a lot of replies that aren't in the context of your use. I see some that I would call complete BS. A good number of others are theory vs actual usage. I used to work in one of the largest engineering firms in the country and know that a good number of engineers are so caught up in theory that they forget the intended use and common sense. This thread reminds me of that.

I've also used an air hammer quite a bit on compressors similar sized to yours and smaller and am fairly confident that my experiences weren't a fluke. Maybe that experience helps me filter out the nonsensical replies.
 

Mr_B

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Messages
5,378
Location
Reading
^
+1
from real world use of a 30 gallon 120v compressor on air hammer you will find it pretty usable .
I can run below regulated pressure with air hammer or impact wrench in some longer run instances but you can work with the compressor to compensate that (or if got dual compressors activate second one if think work load requires it) .
All the maths is not really needed and will be miles off realistic home usage reality and if use manufacturer on the packaging figures for tool consumption and pump cfm you wasting your time as that just marketing maths to produce pretty retailing numbers, you we need measure actual tool cfm usage under working load and measure the real world cfm of your compressor which simply you wouldn't bother doing in such a trivial home user scenario .
Once you start mentioning die grinders and grit blasting then you will certainly need more and a twin setup does this easily and for pretty small money when wanting to run it off common residential 120V electrics .
 
Last edited:

Mr_B

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Messages
5,378
Location
Reading
You will find air tool cfm can vary massively, lot of cheap air tools scoff air as clever air motor design costs in tolerances and design effort, buying sensible quality air tools and research on proven good models will play big part in working results so buy tools with some thought/research .
 
  • Like
Reactions: csp
OP
A

alex123

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
177
Location
USA
Sorry, I didn't "show my work" as I didn't know how much background you have on the topic. In short, we want to know how much air your compressor holds at full pressure (150psi), and how much it holds at the pressure you have the regulator set at to run your air hammer (100? 110?) so we can subtract the difference and figure out how much air you will consume before the tank pressure drops below the regulated pressure. To get your total air storage at 150 PSI:

- Determine the volume of your tank in cubic feet: You have a 30 gallon tank. Assuming those are US liquid gallons, there are 7.48052 gallons in 1 cubic foot. So we divide 30 by 7.48052 to get 4.01 rounded to 4.
- Use Boyle's Law to determine the amount of air you can store in those 4 cubic feet at an given pressure: Boyle's law states that a gas's pressure (that is, the pressure it exerts on it's container) is inversely proportional to the volume assuming the actual amount of gas (molecules) and the temperature remain constant. You are going to experience some temperature change, but not enough to really impact the outcome. Using some algebra/substitutions and some overall simplification, we arrive at a very useful formula for comparing the pressure/volume variables in two different scenarios which can be expressed as P1V1=P2V2. In other words, as long as everything else is held constant, the product of a given pressure and volume in a system remains the same as any other combination of pressure and volume.

Our goal is to determine the volume of atmospheric pressure air (pulled in through the compressor's inlet) that will be squeezed into your compressor tank once your tank pressure reads 150 PSI. We know 3 out of the 4 variables we need, and we can solve for the 4th. we have:

- P1 (atmospheric pressure) which we will assume is 14.7 PSI at sea level. If you live in the mountains, this will be slightly different.
-V1 (volume of atmospheric pressure air) - this is what we're trying to calculate.
-P2 (final pressure) is 150 PSI
-V2 (final volume) is the 4 cubic feet we calculated previously for your compressor's tank.

So P1(14.7) x V1(X) = P2(150) x V2(4) or 600/14.7 which equals 40.82. Now that you know how it works, you can use the calculator I mentioned before to get the same results by just plugging in your variables.

So no you know you are compressing 40.82 cubic feet of atmospheric air into your tank at 150 PSI. If you do this exact same thing over again but instead use the lower pressure at which you want to set your regulator for P2, you will get a lower volume. For example, using 110PSI, you will get 29.93 cubic feet. The difference between these two numbers (40.82 - 29.93 = 10.89) is the volume of air in cubic feet that is flowing out of the tank, through the hose and through your tool from the time you squeeze the trigger until the tank pressure reaches the regulated pressure. If you know your rate of consumption (estimated CFM of the tool), you can calculate the time it will take to flow that much air. If your tool happened to consume air at a rate of exactly 10.89 CFM, it would take exactly 1 minute. If your tool consumes air at double that rate (21.78 CFM), it would take half the time (30 seconds) and so on. To make this math easier, you can use the CFM and Pump Up calculator (specifically, the pump up calculator) on the Airgastech website. Note that if you plug in the correct numbers, you will get a "negative" time since you are actually "pumping down" rather than up.


Thank you so much! This is very helpful, and greatly appreciated! :)
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom