Air Lines

[RedRacer74]

I have now seen a few posts on this site about air lines. Its the next weekend project that I have to tackle to get my shop up and running.

I have looked into but have not seen anyone post anything on Ingersol Rand's SimpleAir System. I did get a price from a local distributor for a compressor and lines installed. Has anyone used this ? Any pics ?
http://www.irgaragesolutions.com/simplair_plumbing.asp#


I just got an e-mail on the Garage-Pak.com system with prices. It actually doesnt look to pricey based on the ease of installation and the fact it requires no painting to finish to make look nice if exposed. I will fax them a floor plan layout of what I propose to get an exact quote for my needs. Please post up some more pics of systems installed and connections.

Copper looks like the best alternative as I have now seen many bad stories on PVC and black pipe with rust in it. L Copper looks to be the ticket for that and K Copper is used when passing through concrete. It can be done by anyone easily but the only drawback is if you want to have a more finished look. Any photo's out there of installations ?

Black pipe has a drawback as to the threads being selaed and the rusting that can occur and I will do some paint work and dont want that affecting it.

I think PVC as a topic has been successfully killed and no discussion is needed.

 

[OI812]

Do you have a link to it? I looked and couldn't find much out about it. I don't know how it assembles, but it does have a o-ring. With any mechanical joint like that the possiblility of failing is higher.

Towards copper, yep Type L is fine. Why type K in concrete? If your worried about it looking crappy you can paint it. You have to clean it really well and prime it with a good primer designed for that purpose. I know in food production plants they actually coat the copper with laquer. Once laquer is on it, it won't turn color. It will maintain it's look.

I bet that simplair system is expensive. I would almost bet at least 5 times the cost of copper.

 

[byrdman]

I'm also interested in the IR system. I'm about ready to take the copper plunge, but if this system is affordable, I could be persuaded. I'll second the request for some pictures if anyone out there has used this system...

How much difference in design and price are the Garage-Pak.com system and the IR system? They look fairly similar.

 

[Baketech]

I've used IR's industrial version. It's basically extruded aluminum with steel compression fittings. Easy to run, clean installation....not overly pricey compared to other methods.....

 

[OI812]

Never priced it so I wouldn't know. Just judging from the fitting types and the fact that it is aluminum, I kind of figured it to be more expensive. Can you post some cost. I certainly can post the cost of copper.

 

[Double Venom]

Alrighty then, somebody come up with some cost factors. I'm just about ready to install close to 600' of something. Right now, after learning a lot from this forum I'm thinking copper. I have no problem with the required 'sweating', in fact since it will most likely be exposed for a long time, I might even clear-coat it.

Lets see;
NO PVC. Darn I had been planning on using that for two years!
Black Pipe; Nope, been there, done that-5 or so years down the road, it can become contaminated
"L" copper vs M or K
Mapp gas work better than propane
No need for silver solder- to much heat needed-could cause the copper to become brittle
Hide the compressor-draw fresh air from outside, insulate the feet from vibration

Darn, the cost of admission to this forum was worth every penny!
DV

 

[OI812]

Alrighty then, somebody come up with some cost factors. I'm just about ready to install close to 600' of something. Right now, after learning a lot from this forum I'm thinking copper. I have no problem with the required 'sweating', in fact since it will most likely be exposed for a long time, I might even clear-coat it.

Lets see;
NO PVC. Darn I had been planning on using that for two years!
Black Pipe; Nope, been there, done that-5 or so years down the road, it can become contaminated
"L" copper vs M or K
Mapp gas work better than propane
No need for silver solder- to much heat needed-could cause the copper to become brittle
Hide the compressor-draw fresh air from outside, insulate the feet from vibration

Darn, the cost of admission to this forum was worth every penny!
DV

And I bet you thought air was just air

 

[kartracer55]

Run type L copper. Sweat it like a water line with 95/5 tin antimony. It is fine to sweat air lines IF! you isolate the compressor form your lines by using a braided steel hose or Hydraulic hose. As for those pre fab cut to fit systems, IDK about those, The ones I have seen are sealed with O rings, and rubber and cold weather ont get along very well, eventually they wont seal right. Remember to T your drops out the top then loop them down, and t the reg/hose out of te side of the drop and put a small valve on the bottom of each drop. Dont cheap out with your filter, It will save you money in the long run to get a good one. I dont mean like a .01 micron filter (unless your painting or using a plasma) but a 5 micron is sufficient. expect to pay around 50 for a decent one.

For a compressor that puts out under 10 cfm no need to run 1/2, but if you talking like 20 cfm, 3/4 is the way to go. 25 and up you should think about 1 inch. make sure you put Enough drops in. If you instal one drop in a 20x20 shop, your gunna need a hell of alot of air hose. but if you install a a few more, you dont need as long of an air hose, which makes life easier.

The problem with threaded pipe is that A it is "particular" about how it seals, and B it will rust internally form the moister in the air.

Jim

 

[JayB]

I saw this on "Trucks" today. http://www.garage-pak.com/

 

[Wolverine]

Those that currently have a system, can you post pictures of it??????

Much appreciated!

 

[kartracer55]

Id be careful with that if I were you. How long do you think those little O rings inside will hold up to 135+ psi and constant temperature changes? Id imagine if you had that set up for like 2 years, in temps ranging from 20-80 degrees, then went to take it all a part to change it, It wouldnt seal for jack ****. Something to consider. Id say sweating in pipes, while time consuming, is the correctway to do it, and you wont be kicking yourself later down the line. Also, id bet those kits are expensive as hell too.

Jim

 

[coupe89]

I've done copper 1/2 (I for get which type) abound my 3 car garage.
I've sweated pipes before also.
There are 3 drops in the front and 2 drops in the rear.
I added valves to each drop off of the T for the drain.
One of the rear drops I added an extra T to plug in the air compressor and filter.
I pressure tested my work. I only had a ~7psi drop over 24 hour period @ 120 psi
I took me 3-4 days @ 3 hours a night.

Plan the project. Take your time. I'll try to post some pic later...

 

[kartracer55]

Coupe... Of its more than like 10-15 cfm, you should probably have run 3/4 main lines. 20 cfm is a hell of alot of air through a 1/2 line.

Jim

 

[OI812]

Coupe... Of its more than like 10-15 cfm, you should probably have run 3/4 main lines. 20 cfm is a hell of alot of air through a 1/2 line.

Jim

Not sure where you are getting the 20 CFM and 10-15 CFM. Please explain.

 

[kartracer55]

No problem. I was referin to how much his compressor puts out, The length of the run, and the pipe size. he ran 1/2 pipe, and I was thinkin, if he went all the way around his 3 car garage, thats a hell of a long distance, and usualy every 30-50 feet of line you run, you should run the next size up. I think 1/2 pipe is too small to hande anything more than 10-15 cfm at most for for a short run, forget about such a long run. 1/2 line is too small when your compressor puts out 20cfm of air, even with a short run. Generally, with 20cfm, you should start at 3/4 line, and for every 30-50 feet of line in you system, you should go up a size. So if you are running 80 feet of main line, you want 1 inch pipe. 100 feet, you want 1 1/4.

Does this help?

Jim

 

[OI812]

So where are you getting your sizing information from? I run large commercial projects, and many times we run air lines. Sometimes these lines come from miles away... air compressor is in a central generating plant. Some of these compressors are more then 100 hp, and the cfm produced far exceeds 20 cfm. Many times the line size in the building is 2", with 3/4 mains coming off of it. Some of these lines run more then 1000'. I have even seen 1/2" running that far. Take an air compressor that is running an air jack hammer. Air consumption on something like this is far in-excess of 20 cfm, and the compressor is well over 30hp. You can run that size of equipment off of a 3/4" air hose with out any problem, and that hose can exceed 200'. In fact you can run two hammers off of that size of hose without any problem.

I don't disagree with the over sizing of air lines, however there is a point of diminishing returns. In a residential environment there should be no reason for the size to exceed 1". If the compressor only has a 1/2" outlet on it, going to 1-1/4" will gain you a little, but the cost-benefit is not there. How many 60 gallon 7 hp compressors are putting out 15-20 cfm @ 140 PSI continuously? I grant that there are some, but look at the outlet size on the compressor. The other thing to consider when sizing an air system, is friction loss due to pipe and fittings. Friction loss is more of a concern in big systems, and I am sorry but most residential systems are not that big and friction loss will not be a concern.

I don't totally disagree with your sizing, but I am wondering where you are getting your information from.

Thanks

 

[kartracer55]

I am getting it from various sources, including sharpe, and a friend who does industrial installations. When you oversize your pipeing, pressure drop becomes less of an issue. When you are running 2 tools at once, assuming the compresor keeps up, you have to get aline that should handle the combined CFM of the tools, otherwise you are starving the air tools for air.

Jim

 

[OI812]

Here is a link that I have been using as a general guide line for air line sizing. Hopefully this will help everyone on how to size the air lines.

Air line sizing

Then click on the air line sizing.

Hopefully this helps.

 

[Lazarus401]

I almost became a distributor for Garage-Pak. I am really impressed with the ease of installing their systems. My 11 year old could do it.

 

[kartracer55]

The thing Id worry about with garage pak and those other systems is the effect of the seals after a few years in cold weather. What is going to happen if you ever decide to rearange the layout? Will it still seal?

Jim

 

[krooser]

I'm using black pipe...it cools the air allowing it to drop out of the system and into the moisture traps installed at every drop. I'm also pouring a little POR-15 rust preventative paint into each length of pipe for a little extra insurance. Regarding dirt/rust from black iron causing paint problems...I guess every good painter I know has a good quality filter at all hose connections which will take care of that problem...

 

[427HISS]

It's the best product I've found. We used it to plumb our sprint car shop. Great to work with.
Kev

 

[MXtras]

I am one of those people that research every damn thing about every damn thing and I have been researching this air piping topic for over 10 months. I have spoken to many others in industry, read everything I could find on the net and paid close attention to all of the facilities I visit.

As we all know, black iron is probably the most common in industry. But - I have seen copper in use and several large manufacturing plants also. The advantages of using copper are numerous and obvious - heat dissipation, corrosion resistance and relative ease of installation. While not as durable as iron, it is durable enough for use in a normal shop environment and is OSHA accepted. And you can run down the street to grab another fitting or another length of pipe when you are in the midst of your installation - this convenience alone is enough to steer me away from the plastic stuff.

I have had schedule 80 PVC in my current home garage for over 18 years and have not had a moments problem but in my commercial shop I can not (and would not) use it. For many reasons, I am going with copper in my shop.

I won't be plumbing for a several weeks as I have way too many issues of higher importance right now, but I will attempt to post pics when the time comes if anyone cares to see what I chose to do.

Scott

 

[kartracer55]

Scott, PVC is a bad idea No matter what thickness it is.

Use copper, Type L or K, and you can use 95/5 tin antimony solder and sweat them just likea water pipe. They will be fine as long as you brace them securly so they do not move or vibrate, as that is what causes sweated joints to fail. What is your length/cfm needs here?

Jim

 

[MXtras]

Yeah - I hear ya on the PVC, kartracer55, and I had never even considered it for my shop.

The shop is 36X48 so my longest run will be about 100' from the compressor. The main air consumer will be die grinders and Dynafiles - no more than maybe two at one time. The blast cabinet will not be used frequently.

Scott

 

[kartracer55]

Hmm so your compressor puts out like 20-25cfm then? Dont go any smaller than 3/4, or any larger than 1inch, as it would be a waste. Remeber to T your drops out of the top, then loop them around, and T the regulators out of the side, with a valve on the bottom. Those tings are important in making surte you have as little moisture as possible. Connect your air lines with a flexible connection to isolate vibration, and then run a line straight up. Do all the lines ar ceiling hieght, then have the drops come down.

Are you going to make it one long run with drops all along or are you going to make it a big loop around the shop? For higher loads, your going to want a loop aroudn the shop, so air can flow evenly all around. Filters before the first drops in either direction from the compressor, and regulate all drops too.


Jim

 

[MXtras]

Kart -

My compressor is a twin pump industrial unit, 15HP total. Can't recall the CFM - the thing is in storage and I haven't looked at it in a few months. It's coming out in the next month to be installed.....lots going on right now setting up the shop...

Because of the configuration of the shop, a loop wouldn't be too economical. Most of the air will be used on the other side of the wall from the compressor - a short distance - so I think 3/4" is the way to go for the trunk line. I am planning to construct a couple of vertical runs to act as a condensor before I go into the trunk line. Each run will have a drain, of course. I understand what you are saying about pulling the air from the top - it makes sense.

Thanks for the replies - I didn't mean to take over the thread....sorry guys!

Scott

 

[gerry]

Had Sch 80 PVC in a shop I worked in. Middle of the night a 90 failed. Bits of PVC in all the walls like schrapnel. Had I been standing at the lathe, it would have been in me, too. I'm going to use 3/4" copper with soldered joints

 

[SIERRA05]

I have used cold water schd 40 1/2 inch for 12 years. Running 125 psi, 60 gal, single stage, with 6 drops/quick connects, one in center on a retractable reel, and a 100 ft rubber from pvc connection a spray booth/regulator for Model trains in my basement from a detached garage. The schedule 40 pvc, has a pressure rating of 400 psi.
Not one sign of Rust, Corrosion, rupture or failed fittings. It was recommended by Sanborn compressor Dealer out of PA. Cleaner and new glue is the key.
The garage is insulated but unheated, with gradual temperature change. My .02 cents

 

[Tim240Z]

I have my compressor in a 10x14 shed behind the detached garage. When the slab was poured for the shed, I had installed a big "U" of black pipe, 18" deep going under the slab and up next to the garage where it 'pops' through the wall. I taped the outside of the black pipe with that protective tape where it is in contact with soil. After it enters the garage I went to 3/4" copper with drop-outs and ball valves for draining water from the lines. Works great and the copper tubing is easy to work with.
I also ran 2 sets of grey electrical PVC conduit next to the black pipe so I have 220V and 110V in the shed (220V for the compressor). I think for the cost/ease and availability, copper is the way to go. I am a little paranoid about internal corrosion of the black pipe, but it is thick enough that it will likely outlast me.......

 

[kartracer55]

The internal corrossion shoudlnt be a problem. Many buildings have black pipe run, then the slab poured over them. Who cares how corroded it gets, As long as your running a good filter AFTER the black pipe.

Jim

 

[Tim240Z]

I do have a filter, right at the end of the copper run, at the point where the quick release fitting is for the flexible air line. I also have 3 verticle drop out lines which appear to capture 90% or so of the condensate/water from the line.

 

[kartracer55]

Alrighty then, I guess youve got it down! But yu are running a regulator, correct?
Its very important too. Alot of people find that thier tools have a little more performance when run at 135psi instead of 90, but it shortens the life of the tool, becuase it wasnt designed for 135/175 psi.

Jim

 

[Tim240Z]

Alrighty then, I guess youve got it down! But yu are running a regulator, correct?
Its very important too. Alot of people find that thier tools have a little more performance when run at 135psi instead of 90, but it shortens the life of the tool, becuase it wasnt designed for 135/175 psi.

Jim

There is a reg at the compressor.....I have it set for 125psi, but have been meaning to drop it to 90psi after reading some other post here.....thanks for the reminder!

 

[kartracer55]

No problem

You said you have it on the compressor. I just thought Id mention...


I have been told and I have read that you should use regulators at the point of use(or just at the drop) instead of having one for the whole system. This is if you plan on ever using two tools at once (like having a friend come over and work with you) If its just you working, then its ok, but I know for our setup, we ran a reg at each drop, because most of the time my dad and I work together, and He might be impacting, and Ill be using the air ratchet. they say it just puts alot of strain on regulator diaphragms, and leads to insufficient and mis regulated air.

Dont know how big of a deal it REALLY is though.

Jim