AlchemyMetalworks' Tool Steel Test Thread

[AlchemyMetalworks]

Can you then comment on the content of Snap-on tool steel versus the content of harbor freight tool steel? This would very helpful to forum members, instead of ******* out generalities over a valid warning from another forum member on how two sockets broke at their first use.

I can. I will actually take the time to buy some SO/Cornwell/Matco/Proto/etc sockets and wrenches from the pawn shop and perform some tests on them for everyone's benefit.

I will perform a spark-test...this is a good indicator of what kind of steel a piece consists of

I will perform a hardness test...this is a good indicator of what kind of steel a piece consists of (only certain steels are heat-treatable)

I will perform a working test...strain-failure/tensile strength is a good indicator of what kind of steel a piece consists of.

All the information is available from various sources in regards to the metrics they use to describe these things.

You'll have to give me a few weeks & be patient with me, as I have to find a few specimens of various brands at the pawn-shops to do this. I'm NOT paying truck prices simply to point out the marketing hype.

 

[AlchemyMetalworks]

Normally I wouldn't solicit anybody on here for "freebies", but if any of you would like to donate tools for destructive testing, I would be willing to provide you with information regarding your brand of choice.

I know, I know...it's a horrible thing to do to a functional tool. That's why I would prefer to receive bent/broken wrenches, ratchets, sockets, etc. Something that has already failed can't be used to perform a strength test, but it can be used for the spark test and hardness test.

If the tool is available, my local steel-yard also has one of those Ray-gun's that shoots a laser beam at a surface and provides a feedback of material composition...I would really like to have all components available at once so that I can do the testing in one-shot.

 

[Bull]

Might be an opportunity for me to send a spare Blackhawk socket or wrench to you to get info about the quality of my preferred brand. I will see what I have.

 

[t100]

pm me your address, I'll send some over.

 

[AlchemyMetalworks]

I really don't have a horse in the race, Bull. I just want people to have some info to go on regarding tools, rather than propaganda & hype.

All comers are welcome and will be subjected to the same testing procedures as the others.

All contributers to this thread will be specifically mentioned, as will the components & model numbers, along with the test data.

I don't want this to be about me...it's about the tools.

Hopefully this will be a useful test for all involved.

 

[Plombob]

I'm glad I saw this thread. It reminded me to post a page on my website.

http://plombtools.com/MetallurgicalAnalysys.aspx

What is a spark test?

I've got a few tools I can send over.

 

[OccupantRJ]

Normally I wouldn't solicit anybody on here for "freebies", but if any of you would like to donate tools for destructive testing, I would be willing to provide you with information regarding your brand of choice.

I know, I know...it's a horrible thing to do to a functional tool. That's why I would prefer to receive bent/broken wrenches, ratchets, sockets, etc. Something that has already failed can't be used to perform a strength test, but it can be used for the spark test and hardness test.

If the tool is available, my local steel-yard also has one of those Ray-gun's that shoots a laser beam at a surface and provides a feedback of material composition...I would really like to have all components available at once so that I can do the testing in one-shot.

One of my acquaintances has a metal salvage yard, and told me that test device cost $32,000. I have not verified this, but was told about the same amount from another yard operator.

 

[AlchemyMetalworks]

One of my acquaintances has a metal salvage yard, and told me that test device cost $32,000. I have not verified this, but was told about the same amount from another yard operator.

Yeah, I know. That's why it helps to have friends I get to use the salvage yard's equipment for this test, if I can have all the components together at the same time to do it. Kind of a one-shot deal, as I only have Fridays off and can't be wasting their time.

 

[AlchemyMetalworks]

I'm glad I saw this thread. It reminded me to post a page on my website.

http://plombtools.com/MetallurgicalAnalysys.aspx

What is a spark test?

I've got a few tools I can send over.

The spark test is where a piece of metal is run against a grinding wheel to throw sparks. Different metals and different hardnesses produce different colored sparks.

Handy when you find a chunk of "mystery-metal" in the scrap-pile and need to make a tool, fixture or workpiece.

 

[MattT]

I'm NOT paying truck prices simply to point out the marketing hype.

Glad you aren't biased

Can't wait to see your "test" results.

 

[AlchemyMetalworks]

Glad you aren't biased

Can't wait to see your "test" results.

Matt...you're more than welcome to put YOUR money where your mouth is. Care to climb on-board the tool-truck and buy a few brand-new pieces to sacrifice for destructive testing...?

Didn't think so. So I will purchase the truck-brands at pawn-shops, where they have depreciated to a reasonable price, and put them through the same tests as all the others.

That's not a bias, that's reality. I'm not a wealthy tool-polisher, I'm a working-class Joe with a working knowledge of materials & metallurgy.

I'm not trying to sell you a product...I have no reason to sway the results either way.

 

[diesel research]

Some of the members are going to want detailed date code info. Sometimes a tool is made by multiple plants/contractors/countries over the years, so that will be a critical piece of info. Even if the code means nothing to you, someone else will be able to translate.

 

[AlchemyMetalworks]

Some of the members are going to want detailed date code info. Sometimes a tool is made by multiple plants/contractors/countries over the years, so that will be a critical piece of info. Even if the code means nothing to you, someone else will be able to translate.

Diesel Research...see post 5

"I really don't have a horse in the race, Bull. I just want people to have some info to go on regarding tools, rather than propaganda & hype.

All comers are welcome and will be subjected to the same testing procedures as the others.

All contributers to this thread will be specifically mentioned, as will the components & model numbers, along with the test data.

I don't want this to be about me...it's about the tools.

Hopefully this will be a useful test for all involved"

 

[pipsters]

I'm glad I saw this thread. It reminded me to post a page on my website.

http://plombtools.com/MetallurgicalAnalysys.aspx

What is a spark test?

I've got a few tools I can send over.

A spark test is when you leave the battery connected and touch your ratchet to the positive and ground side of the alternator and see a plume of sparks and wonder if you just FUBAR'd your alternator. Bonus points if it scares the **** outta you.

This is a really good idea, I would love to see a standard made, kinda like a "Consumer Reports" for tools, I have thought of doing the same thing. I was actually thinking of doing something similar, but establishing a business doing it, with a web site (cheap) and writing about it. Then writing off all the acquisitions on my taxes.

 

[Vinko]

Looking forward to this.

There was a guy from Armstrong Tools who posted in a thread a while back about some of this. Maybe 2 years ago.

 

[Bull]

The test will be polarizing. Some people will enjoy it and, if the methods seem reasonable, find it to be educational as well. Others will dismiss it if it seems to contradict their own ideas. That's just how it's going to be.

My job will be to make sure that the discussion remains civil.

 

[z28snksknr]

Quantitative and scientific testing to give real data to the tool consuming public regarding metalurgy across various brands of tools? I'm on board!!

I wish I had enough tools that I wouldn't miss a few if I sent them to you. I applaud your efforts and willingness to donate your time, money, and energy to this cause.

 

[Kirbot]

Wow!

I can't wait to see the results!
I had an opportunity to buy a rockwell hardness tester very cheap a while back, I've always regreted passing it up.

I have a few Snap-on warranty "leftovers" I can send you, if you post, or pm your address.

 

[Stephenw]

What are you qualifications?

Are you a metallurgist?

Do you work in a test lab of some kind?

What degree(s) do you hold?

 

[Kirbot]

Btw, will you be testing screwdrivers too?

I would love to see how a standard Craftsman compares to one from Harborfreight.

 

[Rickster]

I have some Snap-on sockets with rust, holes drilled in them and other abuse that make them virtually un-saleable. PM with your address and I'll forward them to you. Thanks for following up on this!

 

[t100]

I would like to see how much actual Cobalt contant is in a drill bit advertised as Cobalt drill bit, or Titianium in a Ti-Hammer.

in my line of work, I deal with a lot of drilling. let me see if I can find a worn real Uni-bit and an import, just to see the differences.

 

[johnnybentwrench]

PM sent for an address, JBW

 

[diesel research]

How will superficial chrome affect the test results?

How will damaged tools be stress tested?

 

[Ign]

The test will be polarizing. Some people will enjoy it and, if the methods seem reasonable, educational as well. Others will dismiss it if it seems to contradict their own ideas. That's just how it's going to be.

This. I commend Alchemy's desire to help and be inquisitive. I wouldn't blame him if he walks away halfway through, frustrated w the lack of appreciation here.

IOW Alchemy, be sure you're doing it for yourself and be prepared to feel like you wasted your time by any other person's standards.

 

[BQuicksilver]

I look forward to this. I may also be able to provide some assist. My best friend is the failure metallurgical engineer for Roll-Royce here in Indy. He has every tool know to man at his disposal, and plenty of down time at work.

Here is a photo from his analysis of my titanium bike spoke failure. If you know how fine those threads are you can see he has good equipment. BTW you can see the grain pattern of a rolled thread here:

 

[Amitygravel]

This will be very informative. Will you be able to determine things like alloy used , depth of heat treatment (if any), thickness of any plating , and grain structure ? I'm really looking forward to this.

Craig

 

[AlchemyMetalworks]

What are you qualifications?

Are you a metallurgist?

Do you work in a test lab of some kind?

What degree(s) do you hold?

I don't have any qualifications issued to me by a school, other than an AS degree in Machine Tool Technology, which combined with my OJT and work experience has made me a damned competent machinist.

I'm not a metallurgist.

I guess in a way I work in a test-lab...I rebuild powertrain equipment for OTR rigs, mining & earthmoving equipment, and oil-rig drives. We have a failure analysis lab and are an ISO 9001 certified company, so we have to be trained according to ISO standards in order to maintain our certs.

Most of my education came in the field, so to speak...I have a side business that has designed a modular series of street/race gearboxes. My partner has a lifetime of experience in this field as he works for a major powertrain company...I picked up what I know from buying, tearing-down, rebuilding & testing gearboxes for failures. I work closely with degreed professionals for running calculations and advice, but mostly my success comes from intuition and understanding of basic physics at a workman's level.

 

[AlchemyMetalworks]

How will superficial chrome affect the test results?

How will damaged tools be stress tested?

Superficial chrome will initially affect the spark test. There are a few ways of dissolving or stripping the chrome, which would be a better "baseline" test, so I can either hit chromed-goods with a hand grinder to remove it, turn it off on a lathe, or use a de-chrome service to remove that from the equation.

For stress testing I will be using ASTM standards, which dictate X amount of length for use in a pull-test, and Y amount of length for compression testing, and Z amount of length for strain testing.

For the pull-test I will use the same equipment that weld-shops use for pull-testing on weld coupons. For compression testing I will be using a hydraulic press. For strain testing I will secure one end to a fixed position and load the other end with force...either hydraulic or manual with a long lever-arm. The math isn't too bad to figure out for results.

 

[AlchemyMetalworks]

This will be very informative. Will you be able to determine things like alloy used , depth of heat treatment (if any), thickness of any plating , and grain structure ? I'm really looking forward to this.

Craig

The "ray-gun" that I spoke about previously can determine any alloy that is catalogued in it's memory.

Depth of heat-treat can be determined by sectioning a sample, hardness testing it and examining it under a microscope. Based on alloy, there is a number of sources that have tables listing hardenability and depth achievable under certain conditions.

Thickness of plating is easily determined with the appropriate micrometer and a sample of flaked chrome.

Grain structure is something that would also require a microscope...not any old high-school laboratory 'scope, but rather a Scanning Tunnelling Electron Microscope. Pretty spendy equipment. I'd have to make friends with some people at the Physics dept. at the University of Wyoming to have access to one, but it's doable...

 

[csargents1546]

I will see what I have at work in the black hole that is the bottom drawer. Have a lot of misc socket and duplicate. Might talk to my SO rep and see if he can " donate" some damaged socket to the cause. PM me you address. I look forward see the info on this one.

 

[BQuicksilver]

I'm surprised there is not even more interest in this. I'd love to know if the structure of top brands is superior of if we're paying for marketing.

 

[BQuicksilver]

Alchemy, I'd be happy to get the tools cut and micro-photographed after you're done with them.

I think it's important to get a good cross section of various tools before you begin.

 

[AlchemyMetalworks]

Alchemy, I'd be happy to get the tools cut and micro-photographed after you're done with them.

I think it's important to get a good cross section of various tools before you begin.

That would be AWESOME!!! I'm planning on tagging/labeling all of the individual pieces I test so that the info can be sorted according to brand & tool. That way all I have to do is write down a # with the info and put it into a spreadsheet, then cut & paste onto here.

I would be more than happy to pass the remnants onto you when I'm done, if you would really like to help.

 

[Vinko]

The test will be polarizing. Some people will enjoy it and, if the methods seem reasonable, find it to be educational as well. Others will dismiss it if it seems to contradict their own ideas. That's just how it's going to be.

Who cares? If the methods are sound, let them argue with science. If they're not sound, let them argue with the methods

 

[BackTracker]

Pm me your addy I have a cman 8mm I'd like to see destroyed

 

[diesel research]

For stress testing I will be using ASTM standards, which dictate X amount of length for use in a pull-test, and Y amount of length for compression testing, and Z amount of length for strain testing.

For the pull-test I will use the same equipment that weld-shops use for pull-testing on weld coupons. For compression testing I will be using a hydraulic press. For strain testing I will secure one end to a fixed position and load the other end with force...either hydraulic or manual with a long lever-arm. The math isn't too bad to figure out for results.

What I mean is people intend to send damaged tools. Holes drilled, cracked, wore out drive ends, gouges ect ect.

What will happen after the tests are performed is naysayers will blame the test results on those defects.

Example: snap on 1/2" drive 9/16 socket 6pt (with battle wounds) It fails at "x" ft lbs or what have you. Someone will assuredly suggest it failed prematurely due to the preexisting battle scars such as grind marks, cracks, ect ect.

They may in fact have a valid point? They may go so far as to claim work hardening or metal fatigue. Again, not sure how much validity those claims hold, but am sure it will come up.

 

[BQuicksilver]

I agree with the above. They really should be new tools destroyed. *****, but its a better test bc mfg's change and you'd want to use the same tool for all (say a 10mm wrench).

 

[Plombob]

The spark test is where a piece of metal is run against a grinding wheel to throw sparks. Different metals and different hardnesses produce different colored sparks.

Handy when you find a chunk of "mystery-metal" in the scrap-pile and need to make a tool, fixture or workpiece.

Very interesting! I'd never heard of this.

 

[Plombob]

A spark test is when you leave the battery connected and touch your ratchet to the positive and ground side of the alternator and see a plume of sparks and wonder if you just FUBAR'd your alternator. Bonus points if it scares the **** outta you.

This is a really good idea, I would love to see a standard made, kinda like a "Consumer Reports" for tools, I have thought of doing the same thing. I was actually thinking of doing something similar, but establishing a business doing it, with a web site (cheap) and writing about it. Then writing off all the acquisitions on my taxes.

I learn something new every day! All this time I thought "spark testing" was done with starters.