cookiemonster
Well-known member
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- Feb 1, 2013
- Messages
- 187
Is a guy capable of aligning his own car in his driveway or should you just take it in? I would love if someone has any good resources or experience in doing this. Thanks
Alignment of Vehicle after replacing ball joints
- Thread starter cookiemonster
- Start date
PSDEng
Well-known member
+1 Get it close then take it somewhere. If you do this often and you have a firestone shop nearby, get their lifetime alignment...it'll pay for itself if you do this often.
bobcatdan
Well-known member
Without the propper equipment, ie a $20,000 alignment machine, there is no way to do an accurite alignment. Unless it is a soild axle 4x4 with cams on the top ball joints and you paid no attention at all how they were rotated before you took them out. Replacment of most ball joints will not throw the alignment out much. It still needs to be aligned. I took my serive truck into a ford large truck dealer for ball joints. They flat out told me you don't need to do an alignment. 5,000 miles later the tires were wearing. They screwed up a couple other basic things so I will never go back there.
shocksandstrutz
Well-known member
Kind of on subject.....but what did the older guys do when aligning a car say on a 49 Ford back in the day??? How did they get their measurements and fine tune??
yogitech
Well-known member
Mirrors, string, angle gauges....
Justanoldguy
Well-known member
aligning his own car in his driveway?
Just park it parallel to the driveway sides.
They look out of place when parked sideways.
sberry
Banned
I dont trust the alignment guy but one thing helps is to pre free up any adjustments he may need to make. If they got to do something hard they usually don't.
Modifieddriver
Well-known member
Camber, Caster and Toe-In.
All can be checked in your own shop with a $10 angle finder and a tape measure.
The thing here is if the vehicle was aligned at some time with worn parts, then the install of new parts increases the chances of it being out of alignment.
If you installed new parts with the original alignment, the chances are it'll be back to where it was originally.
Camber is easily checked, as is toe-in. On an independent front suspension the caster is a tough check. That's where ya' need turntables and a gauge on the end of the spindle.
Incorrect toe-in will chew up tires quickly. Camber is the next tire eater. Caster doesn't eat tires, it provides directional straight line tracking and returns the steering back to the straight ahead position after making a turn.
Always make the toe-in setting the last adjustment. This isn't rocket science and you sure as heck don't need a $20k machine to do it.
All can be checked in your own shop with a $10 angle finder and a tape measure.
The thing here is if the vehicle was aligned at some time with worn parts, then the install of new parts increases the chances of it being out of alignment.
If you installed new parts with the original alignment, the chances are it'll be back to where it was originally.
Camber is easily checked, as is toe-in. On an independent front suspension the caster is a tough check. That's where ya' need turntables and a gauge on the end of the spindle.
Incorrect toe-in will chew up tires quickly. Camber is the next tire eater. Caster doesn't eat tires, it provides directional straight line tracking and returns the steering back to the straight ahead position after making a turn.
Always make the toe-in setting the last adjustment. This isn't rocket science and you sure as heck don't need a $20k machine to do it.
justanengineer
Well-known member
Via the alignment tools of the time. My Dad had an old Bear (sp?) scuff gage for awhile that was entirely mechanical. The nearest we could figure it was from the 50s but may have been older.
sberry
Banned
I am with this.
Take it somewhere to have it done professionally, and have them print out the measurements before they touch the car, then have them print out the measurements after they align it, any professional shop should do this without you having to ask. I work as an Auto Tech and I can tell you it doesn't take much adjustment to go from dead center to way out of wack. A 1/4 turn of the inner tie rod and you'll be chewing up tires in no time! Just let the professionals do it, there's a reason alignment machines exist, if eye balling it was acceptable no one would have bothered to design it!
creativecars
Well-known member
Depends on the vehicle. Many modern cars have no adjustment for caster or camber, so it's just up to a toe adjustment. Some vehicles you have to change the whole lower control arm to service the ball joint so there is no adjustment after the change.
Toe adjustment is mandatory if replacing ANYTHING steering or suspension related. Camber will affect toe, but toe wont affect camber. Even tough the piece being replaced isn't adjustable, it can still affect other alignment angles.
Roland-5.0
Well-known member
Exactly!!
I am a licensed tech and I do 95% of our alignments and use the latest and greatest hunter alignment machine. And no lie if you sneeze on the fender of the car and watch the numbers on the screen they will likely move. Its cheap and saves you buying tires in the end.
dsmnickk90
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- Sep 24, 2011
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You can do it. Their is a video how to on youtube of a guy eith a evo showing you how.
+10, how true!
jimbbski
Well-known member
As a road racer for 20+ years I've learned to do my own alignments. If I had to take my race car to a shop and pay them to do it I couldn't afford to race!
A camber/caster gauge made from an electronic digital level and a aluminum adaptor and an home made toe gauge is what I use. To get a very accurate alignment I will mark out four spots on my garage floor, place pieces of 1/8 fiberboard cut into 1X1 ft squares to make each spot level with the other 3 then drive the car on to the pads. I use the digital level and an 8ft bar to get the four pads level with each other. I will also add two sheets of thin steel to the pads that the front wheels sit on. I add some lube between the sheets so they slip when I turn the front wheels. You need to do this so that you can measure caster.
I get accurate and repeatable readings using this method and the total cost of all materials is around $200 and most of that is for the level and adaptor to make it usable as a caster/camber gauge.
A camber/caster gauge made from an electronic digital level and a aluminum adaptor and an home made toe gauge is what I use. To get a very accurate alignment I will mark out four spots on my garage floor, place pieces of 1/8 fiberboard cut into 1X1 ft squares to make each spot level with the other 3 then drive the car on to the pads. I use the digital level and an 8ft bar to get the four pads level with each other. I will also add two sheets of thin steel to the pads that the front wheels sit on. I add some lube between the sheets so they slip when I turn the front wheels. You need to do this so that you can measure caster.
I get accurate and repeatable readings using this method and the total cost of all materials is around $200 and most of that is for the level and adaptor to make it usable as a caster/camber gauge.
wolf_from_wv
Well-known member
Typing race track alignment in google brought up a few results.
I replaced the tie rods/ends on my S10 and then took it to the tire/alignment shop.
I replaced the tie rods/ends on my S10 and then took it to the tire/alignment shop.
In The Doghouse
Well-known member
I tried it on my own a few months ago and documented here. When the weather allows I plan to take the old Camaro to the local alignment shop to double check my results and fine tune the settings. I did it mostly to see if I could and to learn.
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=214082
To be honest it was a lot of effort and taking it to the professional is understandable.
oilslick
Well-known member
Good one!
sberry
Banned
I would say a pro alignment is money well spent.
gsmornot
Well-known member
I did my own alignment using the string method around the tires. Decided after a while to take it to a shop. I was within .1 of being dead on. They made the adjustment but after driving a while I didn't like the feel so I did it again myself and have been happy with it the last 20k miles with no wear issues on the tires. Regular use wear of course but nothing you would find due to an alignment. The machine print out with everything dead on made the wheel feel loose. Maybe if I could find a shop with one of the new Hunter machines I would let them check it just for my curiosity but right now there is no rush. My car is a 2012 by the way so all parts are still pretty new.
Heres the thing with that statement. 90% of the time the vehicles dont come from the factory within factory specs. I encourage all of my customers to at least check the alignment when they buy a new vehicle. Some actually listen to my advice and we frequently find the vehicle toed in or out. Some dont, and we get to sell them tires at 25k miles.
I also check every alignment after installing parts and I cant recall the last time, if ever that a vehicle was within factory specs after replacing any steering/most suspension parts. Hub bearings is another one of those parts that you wouldnt think would change the settings, but it does.
I agree with your logic that an alignment *should* be within specs if it was before the part went bad and was replaced, but unfortunately experience has taught me otherwise. Your digital level and tape measure is no comparison to the accuracy obtained with any new machine. Sure its sufficient and very effective for track days when handling is more important than tire wear and comfort, but its just not gonna cut it if you want to get 50k,60k,70k from a set of expensive tires.
Edit~ .1 is usually about twice the tolerance for a toe spec. Meaning X is the spec, and .05 is the acceptable tolerance on either side of X. It is pretty damn close though. Out of curiosity, how long did it take you you to set up and adjust?
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Depends on the vehicle . . . . . . have a 94 Ford Explorer that has the worst engineered setup for getting/keeping a good alignment.
After trying several alignment shops and Ford dealerships, nearly gave up as several alignments per YEAR were needed - - - giant waste of money!! Was cheaper to just wear out tires.
Instead, took to old school shop with primitive alignment tools (no laser or mirrors . . . just measurements and wheel levels) and he got it spot on after changing out shims and even had to change springs. Those old school alignments for $50 at least lasted a year.
That era Explorer front-end setup with V-shaped torsion bars was total POS.
After trying several alignment shops and Ford dealerships, nearly gave up as several alignments per YEAR were needed - - - giant waste of money!! Was cheaper to just wear out tires.
Instead, took to old school shop with primitive alignment tools (no laser or mirrors . . . just measurements and wheel levels) and he got it spot on after changing out shims and even had to change springs. Those old school alignments for $50 at least lasted a year.
That era Explorer front-end setup with V-shaped torsion bars was total POS.
Just for my own knowledge did you replace the parts with OEM or aftermarket?
Does wheel size also effect alignment?
Modifieddriver
Well-known member
Hit one pot hole and the accuracy you talk about is toast.
But then again, I'm sure the roads in Ohio don't have pot holes.
Digital level??? Heck no, I'm talking about a $10 angle finder. Although one of those Craftsman digital levels would be better.
The alignment machines you reference are only as good as the folks operating them, and frequently they aren't too good at it. Run a vehicle on an alignment rack and measure it. Take it off, drive it a hundred miles and put in back on the same alignment rack with the same operator. Most of the time the reading will be different than the previous settings. Repeatability on alignments is tough nut to crack. I could give a lengthy explanation of how and why I know this, but I'll just say almost 30 years of vehicle/tire R&D gives me some insider insight.
Checking wheel bearings, tire pressures, "dead" weight in the trunk or other places, etc. are all part of the alignment procedure. It can get more involved than that. We used to put lead shot bags in to simulate driver weight.
Not really sure what you're referencing in your edit paragraph.
I agree that new cars could use some help in the alignment area. As I said before, toe is the biggest tire eater and should be adjusted last.
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dsmnickk90
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- 711
You could really roll a car off the rack and out it back on and the numbers will be slighty diffrent after the suspension cycles and settles
Roland-5.0
Well-known member
Perfect alignment..... sit in the car and its out of wack. Load the kids and wife in and its even further out. But the print out says its good so after that the customer is happy. We had a company get a bunch of front end work done then did an alignment. Then they went and had a huge tank installed in the back of the truck for spraying pesticide. Within 4 months the front tires were screwed. Check the alignment and it was perfect. Came to realize The tank was empty.
mobiledynamics
Well-known member
IMO, a good alignment tech will properly ballast the car as well.
I can't confirm as I've gotten a different response from different shops (I'm a alignment junkie and will try out *new shops* that have new rack systems), but AFAIK, the newer systems out there also will accommodate and calculate the ballasting as part of it's measurements.
I can't confirm as I've gotten a different response from different shops (I'm a alignment junkie and will try out *new shops* that have new rack systems), but AFAIK, the newer systems out there also will accommodate and calculate the ballasting as part of it's measurements.
Pumpman1968
Well-known member
I say...its a giant conspiracy......the tire companies are in cahoots with the alignment shops .......who sell tires (anyone else notice that?). You pay the alignment shop $75.00 after they talk you into it when they sell you a new set of Chinese tires. You drive your car for 8,000 mile and your tires are worn badly! You go back to the alignment shop and they blame it on the roads (giant pothole in their parking lot). They sell you another set of Chinese tires and talk you into an alignment.
Ok....gotta go. My proctologist just flew up in his UFO and its time for my weekly prostrate exam.
Just wondering....how many guys were thinking "YEAH....that's right....happens all the time!".....right up to the line about the prostrate exam?
Ok....gotta go. My proctologist just flew up in his UFO and its time for my weekly prostrate exam.
Just wondering....how many guys were thinking "YEAH....that's right....happens all the time!".....right up to the line about the prostrate exam?
mobiledynamics
Well-known member
$75 for a alignment ! I know Labor rates and such is different in different areas of the country.
Any of the 3 alignment shops I go to are $160-$180 a pop.......(my preferred shops).
There are probably others inline with something lower, but my alignment guys just don't look at the screen and get it in the green. Test driver, tinker, proper ballasting, might bring it back on the rack and tweak it and then another test drive. That's the *value* I get from my preferred shops
Any of the 3 alignment shops I go to are $160-$180 a pop.......(my preferred shops).
There are probably others inline with something lower, but my alignment guys just don't look at the screen and get it in the green. Test driver, tinker, proper ballasting, might bring it back on the rack and tweak it and then another test drive. That's the *value* I get from my preferred shops
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Pumpman1968
Well-known member
Pumpman1968
Well-known member
I should have mentioned that the guy who owns the alignment shop is on the City Council and they just lowered the Highway Depts budget.
wafrederick
Well-known member
Caster can cause tire wear,if it is in direct.Most alignment shops love to rip off people.I have seen it saying a part is bad and is not.Check the front end over completely before taking to the alignment shop.There are a couple places in my area that love to push ball joint replacement doing a front end check before the alignment is done.
mobiledynamics
Well-known member
For all you alignment guys in shops, do you guys tell your customers x component is worn before putting in on the rack.
To me, it's p1ssing $ down the drain getting a alignment with worn components
To me, it's p1ssing $ down the drain getting a alignment with worn components
Absolutely. I won't align a car with worn parts
mobiledynamics
Well-known member
Now that is ONE GREAT TECH.
Too often a shop will just get her up on the rack, attempt to dial it in, and they say they can't get this dialed in or that, cause X and X, after promptly handing you the alignment bill.
Different front ends require different testing techniques. Not all vehicles fall into the jack it up wherever and shake up and down. Trucks for example require the lower control arm to be compressed before any visible movement can be seen. Many times its easier to wedge a pry bar between the tire and rack and push up.
Sureshot
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I would just change the ball joints and go. As one tech said you can sneeze on it and see the numbers change. So you pull it off the rack and put it back and it is different. Think of the first pothole etc.
I do alot of gravel etc and just do the string method on my pickups. I also don't balance anymore. The local tire shop doesn't even do it on bigger pickup tires. First rock you get stuck or mud in the rims and the balance is history. Been considering the balance beads though.
Maybe if srmofo was doing it I would see value but it is usually just mofo.
I do alot of gravel etc and just do the string method on my pickups. I also don't balance anymore. The local tire shop doesn't even do it on bigger pickup tires. First rock you get stuck or mud in the rims and the balance is history. Been considering the balance beads though.
Maybe if srmofo was doing it I would see value but it is usually just mofo.
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