all usa tools ?

[Ponchoguy]

"Some" but not all. Useful features and quality trump nostalgia even if it's not USA.

Which would you rather use?

Apples and oranges, you've got two different length tools. One might reach where the other does not. They do not have the same salient qualities/dimensions.

 

[Ponchoguy]

So I'd also like to add to this thread that while USA made tools are certainly my preference, there is a reason I don't have a "problem" buying tools from Germany, Switzerland, The UK, France, Canada, or Japan. That reason is fair labor laws. If a nation has fair labor practices I feel like I am supporting someone's livelihood in a meaningful way. While I'd certainly prefer to support American manufacturing, I'm not opposed to supporting families elsewhere in the world.

That being said, I find China's protection of workers appalling. I will refuse to reward these practices any way that I can. That seems to be the root of the sentiment behind this thread.

Also, why would you want to support a nation that is hellbent on trying to destroy us?

 

[garfunkle24]

The credentials of a person involved in a debate is entirely relevant. One of those credentials is experience. The simple fact of the matter is that using anything professionally is not akin to a typical amateurs' use.


---Define experience.

Over 20 000 hours as a professional ag, heavy equipment and auto tech and Journeyman certification in all three.

 

[Ponchoguy]

Over 20 000 hours as a professional ag, heavy equipment and auto tech and Journeyman certification in all three.

In an area where the moose population outweighs the equipment population . LOL.

Certifications are valid, but they don't make you good at what you do. Some "certified" people should have chosen a different career path....

 

[Ponchoguy]

@ g24

I can't go too far with this. Ryan already bitched at me about "arguing on the internet".

So, if you want to debate, how about we start with what point you would like to make other than you are a professional so you are right. I'm having a hard time figuring out what else you have said.

I can see that metal fatigue could eventually contribute to impact socket failure and that more frequent usage would accelerate any fatigue and any failure that it might eventually cause. Was that your only point? If so, great, we completely agree.

Or, are you trying to make the point that USA made impact sockets will be less likely to fail due to metal fatigue or will take longer to fail for that reason? If so, tell us how many foreign made impact sockets you have had fail, due to metal fatigue, during your "professional" use. How many US made impact sockets have you had fail due to metal fatigue?

I think my little test will show whether a cheap impact socket from China breaks easier than a tool truck impact socket under stress. Ignoring some possibility of eventual breakage due to metal fatigue.

Chris

Chris:

Those of us with the American made tools might as well flush them down the sewer because they're obviously inferior to everything else. LOL.

G24: Can you provide the certified testing back up to prove it, or does your "experience" trump everyone else?

 

[iScream]

I started tearing down cars to various levels for my old man in his auto body shop behind our house when I was 9 or 10 years old. We mostly did paint and restoration stuff on classic cars but also rebuilt totals. What that means is you buy two wrecked cars of the same year make and model where one is crashed in the front and the other is crashed in the rear. You tear both down and cut them in half then weld the good front half to the good back half. Then you paint the whole thing the same color and use whichever interior was nicer.

The Snap-on truck came right to our house every week or two back then.

I did this type of work until I was 22 years old, which was about 21 years ago. That's when I got tired of spending my days covered in a mixture of sweat and bondo/primer/paint dust and went back to school.

Chris

 

[iScream]

Chris:

Those of us with the American made tools might as well flush them down the sewer because they're obviously inferior to everything else. LOL.

I said nothing even remotely like that. Where do you even come up with that ****? LOL.

 

[Ponchoguy]

I said nothing even remotely like that. Where do you even come up with that ****? LOL.

You're missing the point. LOL. Like you said, if it doesn't follow the "GJ Majority", it must not be any good.

I mean if half of these brands made toilet paper, it must be good because it's made by a certain company, right?

 

[garfunkle24]

In an area where the moose population outweighs the equipment population . LOL.

Certifications are valid, but they don't make you good at what you do. Some "certified" people should have chosen a different career path....

All you are doing is proving your ignorance. You asked what I meant by experience, I told you.

FYI I have always been at the top of my field. Also FYI, where I am, almost the entire economy is based on natural resources, predominantly mining, agriculture, forestry and oil.

Your ridiculous ad hominem attacks merely highlight the weakness in your argument.

I have only really made one point here: Under professional use, tools will break without abusing them. Doesn't matter if I'm a member of a lost tribe that's never even seen machinery let alone the tools to fix it, I'm still right.

 

[iScream]

All you are doing is proving your ignorance. You asked what I meant by experience, I told you.

FYI I have always been at the top of my field. Also FYI, where I am, almost the entire economy is based on natural resources, predominantly mining, agriculture, forestry and oil.

Your ridiculous ad hominem attacks merely highlight the weakness in your argument.

I have only really made one point here: Under professional use, tools will break without abusing them. Doesn't matter if I'm a member of a lost tribe that's never even seen machinery let alone the tools to fix it, I'm still right.

You know, I'm really wondering now if there aren't some cultural miscommunication issues here. You seem to think everyone is attacking you but most of your posts have been insulting to some degree. I have assumed that you were doing it on purpose.

I'm just not seeing these "ridiculous ad hominem attacks". I know I've been pretty gentle with you.

Chris

 

[ganymede]

Radar contact ... incoming thread nuke ..!

 

[Ponchoguy]

All you are doing is proving your ignorance. You asked what I meant by experience, I told you.

FYI I have always been at the top of my field. Also FYI, where I am, almost the entire economy is based on natural resources, predominantly mining, agriculture, forestry and oil.

Your ridiculous ad hominem attacks merely highlight the weakness in your argument.

I have only really made one point here: Under professional use, tools will break without abusing them. Doesn't matter if I'm a member of a lost tribe that's never even seen machinery let alone the tools to fix it, I'm still right.

You're one guy with one opinion, that hardly makes you an expert. No matter how many "degrees" you have on the wall.

Your personal experience hardly makes you an expert, it is one guy's opinion and you need to see that. Now if you're a guy that drinks the Koolaide, I understand that...but the rest of us don't drink it.

I'm not trying to argue with you, but for you to say, "I'm a Pro, so I know better" is complete nonsense. You put your pants on one leg at a time, just like the rest of us.

When you prove it with test data, that would be a different story. So when will you be providing that to the group?

 

[garfunkle24]

You know, I'm really wondering now if there aren't some cultural miscommunication issues here. You seem to think everyone is attacking you but most of your posts have been insulting to some degree. I have assumed that you were doing it on purpose.

I'm just not seeing these "ridiculous ad hominem attacks". I know I've been pretty gentle with you.

Chris

It's not a ridiculous ad hominem attack to imply I had poor technical training and/or skills because of where I live? Even when it's factually incorrect as this is a machinery based economy?

It's not a ridiculous ad hominem attack to imply that I'm bad in my field even though highly qualified?

All because I had the audacity to say that pros break tools without abusing them?

 

[garfunkle24]

You're one guy with one opinion, that hardly makes you an expert. No matter how many "degrees" you have on the wall.

Your personal experience hardly makes you an expert, it is one guy's opinion and you need to see that. Now if you're a guy that drinks the Koolaide, I understand that...but the rest of us don't drink it.

I'm not trying to argue with you, but for you to say, "I'm a Pro, so I know better" is complete nonsense. You put your pants on one leg at a time, just like the rest of us.

When you prove it with test data, that would be a different story. So when will you be providing that to the group?

What the hell is wrong with you? My point about pros was more about them putting tools through a lot more use than an amateur, not that they know better. But yes, experience is relevant to a debate. I'm sorry you have a chip on your shoulder about your lack of it.

Again, my one and only real point: PROS BREAK TOOLS WITHOUT ABUSING THEM. Address that, not whether or not I'm an expert. You're the one hung up on that.

 

[LumpyMusic]

I bought my rolling tool chest (Swedish Teng brand) from a retiring auto mechanic. It came filled with tools from HF brand to SO to Teng and others.

There was ONE broken tool in the whole bunch. A SnapOn screwdriver.

OMG!

Now, since this professional mechanic broke a "professionally rated US made expensive drool tool", does that mean he's really GOOD at his job or he's really BAD at his job? Did he simply fail to apply enough tool polish? Fail to bash those who insist on using tools that cost a tenth of the drool tool?

I mean come-on. I realize that the downfall of civilization as we know it is due to Sears sending part of their manufacturing offshore, and that the HF manufacturing plant in Long Dong murders the babies of it's workers so they'll be less distracted, but all this "breaking tools" nonsense is exactly that. Chinese sockets don't explode. Screwdrivers made by overpaid, overfed, overunionized whining US workers don't magically outlast screwdrivers made somewhere else just because some fat slob in middle America watched as the machine made the thing.


Sgt Lumpy

 

[Ponchoguy]

It's not a ridiculous ad hominem attack to imply I had poor technical training and/or skills because of where I live? Even when it's factually incorrect as this is a machinery based economy?

It's not a ridiculous ad hominem attack to imply that I'm bad in my field even though highly qualified?

All because I had the audacity to say that pros break tools without abusing them?

You're highly qualified based on YOUR opinion, nothing more. The more you brag, the more foolish you sound...but where's the test data to back up what you're saying?

You made the claim, let's see the facts, and not from your "experience".

 

[Ponchoguy]

I bought my rolling tool chest (Swedish Teng brand) from a retiring auto mechanic. It came filled with tools from HF brand to SO to Teng and others.

There was ONE broken tool in the whole bunch. A SnapOn screwdriver.

OMG!

Now, since this professional mechanic broke a "professionally rated US made expensive drool tool", does that mean he's really GOOD at his job or he's really BAD at his job? Did he simply fail to apply enough tool polish? Fail to bash those who insist on using tools that cost a tenth of the drool tool?

I mean come-on. I realize that the downfall of civilization as we know it is due to Sears sending part of their manufacturing offshore, and that the HF manufacturing plant in Long Dong murders the babies of it's workers so they'll be less distracted, but all this "breaking tools" nonsense is exactly that. Chinese sockets don't explode. Screwdrivers made by overpaid, overfed, overunionized whining US workers don't magically outlast screwdrivers made somewhere else just because some fat slob in middle America watched as the machine made the thing.


Sgt Lumpy

Is that your opinion of US manufacturing workers?

 

[Ponchoguy]

All you are doing is proving your ignorance. You asked what I meant by experience, I told you.

FYI I have always been at the top of my field. Also FYI, where I am, almost the entire economy is based on natural resources, predominantly mining, agriculture, forestry and oil.

Your ridiculous ad hominem attacks merely highlight the weakness in your argument.

I have only really made one point here: Under professional use, tools will break without abusing them. Doesn't matter if I'm a member of a lost tribe that's never even seen machinery let alone the tools to fix it, I'm still right.

Experience isn't showing us your "resume", it's broader than that. So, a guy that never wrenches in his life that designs, tests and analyzes the tools we all buy is less of an "expert" than you?

Bzzt, thanks for playing. There's more to expertise than wearing the same uniform for 20 years.

 

[Ponchoguy]

What the hell is wrong with you? My point about pros was more about them putting tools through a lot more use than an amateur, not that they know better. But yes, experience is relevant to a debate. I'm sorry you have a chip on your shoulder about your lack of it.

Again, my one and only real point: PROS BREAK TOOLS WITHOUT ABUSING THEM. Address that, not whether or not I'm an expert. You're the one hung up on that.

I'm not hung up on anything. You think that 20k hours makes you an expert. Newsflash: It doesn't. You think that certifications make you an expert: Newsflash #2. They don't.

Your use of tools is based on your opinion and ZERO test data. ZERO. That makes you a guy with an opinion, just like me or anyone else. Nothing more.

 

[LumpyMusic]

Is that your opinion of US manufacturing workers?

Yes it is. I think US tools are overrated and US workers are over coddled. I realize that's blaspho-land for a lot of the polishers here.


Sgt Lumpy

 

[garfunkle24]

Experience isn't showing us your "resume", it's broader than that. So, a guy that never wrenches in his life that designs, tests and analyzes the tools we all buy is less of an "expert" than you?

Bzzt, thanks for playing. There's more to expertise than wearing the same uniform for 20 years.

I see you struggle with reading comprehension.

Again, my one and only real point: PROS BREAK TOOLS WITHOUT ABUSING THEM. Address that, not whether or not I'm an expert. You're the one hung up on that.

 

[Ponchoguy]

I see you struggle with reading comprehension.

What's there not to understand that you're not an expert? That's pretty clear. Where's the test data?

 

[Ponchoguy]

Yes it is. I think US tools are overrated and US workers are over coddled. I realize that's blaspho-land for a lot of the polishers here.


Sgt Lumpy

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, as we all are, but I'm wondering about that on GJ. If you don't go with the majority, you MUST be wrong.

I believe differently, but that's me and my .02.

 

[Brownsfan]

Until your job goes to China.

 

[Full Metal Ratchet]

I would actually expect a "professional" to have appropriate tools for the task they need to accomplish and be less likely to slip 3 foot of pipe over the end of a 24" breaker bar attached to a 1/2" impact socket.
Chris

Guilty! Sometimes you gotta getter done, no time to wait for the right tools to arrive. Time is money and all that. I've done this as a pro and a hobbyist. After it is over you buy the tool you needed and it sits in your box for 10 years collecting dust.

Speaking of right tools, I really like Wright Tools combination wrenches .

I try to support USA businesses, but only if they have a good product. I will go across the border or overseas to get the best product. That being said, I have a second set of basic tools that is mostly Kobalt, because most towns have a Lowe's if I'm on the road and something breaks. Use to be Craftsman, but Sears are few and far between comparitively. I have found Taiwan Kobalt to be generally better than China Kobalt but they change suppliers like I change underwear.

 

[Ponchoguy]

Until your job goes to China.

Exactly.

 

[garfunkle24]

I may as well argue with my 3 year old nephew, he at least shows some semblance of comprehension.

 

[Ponchoguy]

I may as well argue with my 3 year old nephew, he at least shows some semblance of comprehension.

Does he have the test data that we require that you're unwilling to provide?

 

[1982fxr]

Also, why would you want to support a nation that is hellbent on trying to destroy us?

the nation of wall st?

 

[Ponchoguy]

the nation of wall st?

Them too, but I was referring to all the tainted Chinese products as well as their government not liking us too much either.

 

[nieuport17]

I got tools from everywhere.
And i cant believe this thread is still alive.
It usually goes bad about the 10th comment.

 

[shoggoth80]

So, there's three of us saying that "Occasionally, as pros, we have to abuse **** to get the job done." At least I think there is after sifting through the back and forth going on.

There's two of us saying that sometimes, even under normal use "Stuff just breaks." unless I missed some extra input.

I have seen tools fail under both abuse, and normal use. Doesn't the phrase "**** happens" still apply? Most of my busted sockets happened under normal use conditions. Stripped ratchets the same.

Metal fatigue happens. Bend a piece of flat stock back and forth for a while. It'll eventually crack. You don't necessarily need exhaustive test data for that.

I don't know about the other guys, but I work fleet... and even under normal use, it seems that we are pretty hard on our gear. Stuff gets hammered, at least the common sizes.

 

[ganymede]

...Metal fatigue happens. Bend a piece of flat stock back and forth for a while. It'll eventually crack. You don't necessarily need exhaustive test data for that.

I don't know about the other guys, but I work fleet... and even under normal use, it seems that we are pretty hard on our gear. Stuff gets hammered, at least the common sizes.

Oh cmon . When a tool breaks the first thing anyone does is make a detailed record of the event ( if you're a real mechanic anyway) and then keep it on your computer or cell phone for future reference.
Show me the data !!!

 

[d.mcfarland]

Maybe we can get Lumpy and Ponchoguy to post some pictures of their tools and the work they do with that.

Easy to talk smack online. Backing it up is where and how you prove a point.

 

[LumpyMusic]

Maybe we can get Lumpy and Ponchoguy to post some pictures of their tools and the work they do with that.

Easy to talk smack online. Backing it up is where and how you prove a point.

I want to be sure that I understand -

If the "Work that I do" is not tool breaking worthy then the fact that I don't break tools is meaningless. Is that about it?

And I want to be sure I understand the subset of that -

If my work isn't worthy, does that mean that it's not "important enough" or that I don't work "fast enough"? If I take care of seven vehicles, is eight or more the mark of a worthy mechanic?

I just want to be sure that I'm up to or down to the same level that you are. And if I don't live up/down to that yardstick that you seem to want to set, I'll want to be sure and get tutoring from you about how I can break more tools.


Sgt Lumpy

 

[raiderhillbilly]

There are great USA tools.
There are crappy USA tools.
There are great foreign tools.
There are crappy foreign tools.

I prefer great over crappy.

Thats all i have to say about that.

 

[Brownsfan]

At this point what tools that are NOW USA made are crappy? Manufacturing cost of producing tools here has really weeded out the "crappy" tools. Again I'm not talking about new old stock stuff left over from years gone by. I'm talking about stuff being produced now. Maybe Craftsman screwdrivers? I would call them basic not really crappy.

 

[garfunkle24]

There are great USA tools.
There are crappy USA tools.
There are great foreign tools.
There are crappy foreign tools.

I prefer great over crappy.

Thats all i have to say about that.

I totally hear what you're saying but do you have test data?

 

[d.mcfarland]

I just want to be sure that I'm up to or down to the same level that you are. And if I don't live up/down to that yardstick that you seem to want to set, I'll want to be sure and get tutoring from you about how I can break more tools.

It was really more about your "USA tools are overrated" comment. If you as a consumer want to be able to have money to spend, then you might want to at least consider buying domestic.

For what it's worth headlines today were that recently there has been a influx of Chinese home buyers paying all cash for property here. Good thing? Yes, in some regard. Bad thing? Hell yeah, they are likely only able to do that because we are outsourcing so much.

Don't want to get political. This is more about comparing a useable USA tool and a useable imported tool. They still likely get the job done. But at what cost and to who? Initially the consumer. Long term, the country.

 

[1950mercury]

Pfffttt....I farted and yes it was a USA made fart....I considered outsourcing my farts but since the only farts that I don't mind are my own I decided not to out source them.