Aluminum 3D printing

[LS1-IROC]

Curious if anyone here has used any of the numerous Chinese additive manufacturing sources to have parts printed. I'm mainly interested in aluminum or possibly stainless steel.
6 years ago I came up with a product that I manufacture in my home shop on a 3 axis CNC. I cannot keep up with the demand of the product with my current "real" job and family obligations. I'm getting burnt out and considering going the additive route now that the prices has come down from the folks over in China. This would take a lot of load of my shoulders. I'm at the point where I need to find other sources of manufacturing or I'm just going to quit all together.
If any of you have used these services I'm curious to here what your experiences were.
Also wonder about how tariffs play into this as I cannot get a straight answer from the sources I have inquired with.

 

[cvairwerks]

I would only use a Chinese producer if you want your product pirated and put on the market for less money than you can make it.

 

[PCustoms]

Depending on what it is, printed/sintered metal may not be strong enough...

There's a few sites that offer "offshore" small run CNC services as well

 

[mike93lx]

No first hand experience, but pcbway is the first company that comes to mind.

@jeepxj

 

[sz0k30]

There's a guy always posting on F.B., in Hazel Park, Mich. IPF Racing. His work seems to be primarily 3D scanning & printing. Sounds like he farms out Aluminum 3D printing. Maybe get a hold of him.

 

[Citation]

FastMatt on YouTube featured some 3d AL parts in his recent video. I think he mentioned the vendor as well as some of his pros/cons

 

[mike93lx]

FastMatt on YouTube featured some 3d AL parts in his recent video. I think he mentioned the vendor as well as some of his pros/cons

 

[Firebrick43]

I watched that video Friday. Good info and as always, his brand of humor is awesome.

 

[cleaner]

There are other options that may make sense depending on the # of parts you need and the required material properties and the cost constraints. If you can elaborate on the nature of the parts and the required material properties then I could reply with some alternative manufacturing processes that would support higher volume production.

I have many years of experience with managing China outsourced designs, not a great fit for you IMO based on your post. It takes a lot of resources to manage suppliers in China and confirm QA, shipping, customs, etc.

 

[jeepxj]

we have used JLCPCB

Online 3D Printing Service | Custom 3D Printed Parts

Custom 3D Printed Parts from $0.30. Professional 3D printing service with SLA(Resin), MJF(Nylon), SLM(Metal), FDM(Plastics), SLS(Nylon), BJ(Metal) and WJP.

jlc3dp.com

 

[PCustoms]

Look at xometry, has US and offshore options and a variety of printing/CNC options.

 

[WildBill]

I have used https://www.emachineshop.com for a bunch of different items, their free cad software can also tell you the cost of parts and give you tips for making your item better/cheaper. You can play with materials and machining specs to fine tune your part and cost.

 

[dcg9381]

If any of you have used these services I'm curious to here what your experiences were.
Also wonder about how tariffs play into this as I cannot get a straight answer from the sources I have inquired with.

I have not used CnC services out of China, but they do exist. You'll pay good money for a prototype - and you definitely want a prototype before you commit to buying in bulk. China can really do great manufacturing, but they'll cut corners and it can take a while to find a supplier that does it right, won't change it, and is good with communication.

Also wonder about how tariffs play into this as I cannot get a straight answer from the sources I have inquired with.

If these are parts you could ship by air, I'd recommend doing that initially, especially with the prototypes. When you ship them by air, it makes things a lot easier.. You may get hit with a tariff, but it's typically handled by the carrier and it "won't matter much" with a prototype or two or three. Real simple to do by air... Just like any international air shipment.

Tariffs really play (in my experience) when you start shipping larger quantities in by slow boat. You pay the import tariff at the port of entry.. I had to have an import license and get a "broker". Not the end of the world.. The broker can walk you through all the forms. Tariffs (in recent history) can have radical swings while things are "being shipped", but they are based on the cost of goods, category of goods. Hopefully it's a little more static right now..

 

[LS1-IROC]

Thanks for the feedback guys! Stateside manufacturing is almost guaranteed to cost more than I can sell my product for in the market I am in unfortunately. The only way I have been able to make money is by doing it all myself with virtually no overhead.
I have had a couple machine shops locally quote the machining for me and they come back with a price per part that only leaves a few bucks of profit on my end. That's not worth the effort for me. If I raise my prices to account for the increased cost, then I would lose too many customers. I know this market well as I have been in it for 30+ years as an enthusiast and 6 years as a manufacturer.
The parts I make do have some intricate features that I think could be a good fit for additive manufacturing. If I can get finished parts that are ready to powder coat, assemble, box and ship that would save me a ton of time, even if it means losing a little profit per piece, the time gained would be a huge benefit and could likely be made up in the increase in volume that I could sell.

 

[mike93lx]

Thanks for the feedback guys! Stateside manufacturing is almost guaranteed to cost more than I can sell my product for in the market I am in unfortunately. The only way I have been able to make money is by doing it all myself with virtually no overhead.
I have had a couple machine shops locally quote the machining for me and they come back with a price per part that only leaves a few bucks of profit on my end. That's not worth the effort for me. If I raise my prices to account for the increased cost, then I would lose too many customers. I know this market well as I have been in it for 30+ years as an enthusiast and 6 years as a manufacturer.
The parts I make do have some intricate features that I think could be a good fit for additive manufacturing. If I can get finished parts that are ready to powder coat, assemble, box and ship that would save me a ton of time, even if it means losing a little profit per piece, the time gained would be a huge benefit and could likely be made up in the increase in volume that I could sell.

I bet it won't come out as cheap as you think or want. Import costs, quality issues, needing to buy larger quantities up front, carrying inventory...

Sounds like you have a hobby that isn't enjoyable anymore and it may be worth donating your time to other projects.

If the product is good and has demand, I bet it will sell for more than you think. Since you already have more business than you can handle, considering raising your price until it resets demand to a sustainable volume

 

[PCustoms]

Thanks for the feedback guys! Stateside manufacturing is almost guaranteed to cost more than I can sell my product for in the market I am in unfortunately. The only way I have been able to make money is by doing it all myself with virtually no overhead.
I have had a couple machine shops locally quote the machining for me and they come back with a price per part that only leaves a few bucks of profit on my end. That's not worth the effort for me. If I raise my prices to account for the increased cost, then I would lose too many customers. I know this market well as I have been in it for 30+ years as an enthusiast and 6 years as a manufacturer.
The parts I make do have some intricate features that I think could be a good fit for additive manufacturing. If I can get finished parts that are ready to powder coat, assemble, box and ship that would save me a ton of time, even if it means losing a little profit per piece, the time gained would be a huge benefit and could likely be made up in the increase in volume that I could sell.

So what's the part?

 

[LS1-IROC]

I bet it won't come out as cheap as you think or want.

Sounds like you have a hobby that isn't enjoyable anymore and it may be worth donating your time to other projects.

You are correct on both accounts. I just hate to leave money on the table

If the product is good and has demand, I bet it will sell for more than you think. Since you already have more business than you can handle, considering raising your price until it resets demand to a sustainable volume

The product is good, innovative and does have a demand for sure. It was an extremely rewarding experience to develop the product and figure out all the details, however after 6 years of doing "production" I am burnt out. I've made and sold 100X more of this product than I ever thought I would when I started out. It kind of turned into a monster. I took 6 months off last year and it reminded me of how normal people live, lol.

 

[mike93lx]

You are correct on both accounts. I just hate to leave money on the table

The product is good, innovative and does have a demand for sure. It was an extremely rewarding experience to develop the product and figure out all the details, however after 6 years of doing "production" I am burnt out. I've made and sold 100X more of this product than I ever thought I would when I started out. It kind of turned into a monster. I took 6 months off last year and it reminded me of how normal people live, lol.

You're already leaving money on the table, but it's not taking money out of your pocket directly, "just" time. Outsource this and you'll get hit with both.

It's great that it was enjoyable for a while. Maybe it's time to move on? Sell the product? Is it patented or have any protections?

 

[dcg9381]

You are correct on both accounts. I just hate to leave money on the table

You're not wrong, but I think the magic variable is "volume". If this part is going to sell for years and you can sell (high) hundreds of them, I'd absolutely look at having it made elsewhere. You could still do the finish work (in mass). One of the big keys is volume. If you get the initial parts run right, you're good...

The product is good, innovative and does have a demand for sure. It was an extremely rewarding experience to develop the product and figure out all the details, however after 6 years of doing "production" I am burnt out. I've made and sold 100X more of this product than I ever thought I would when I started out. It kind of turned into a monster. I took 6 months off last year and it reminded me of how normal people live, lol.

Will the "demand" for this product drop? I built specialty harnesses and custom EFI for a while - it was far too time consuming and "after sale support" consuming for me to continue. I did have a great run of 3-4 years manufacturing a drive-line part out of China.. But it was a slog shipping them.. It got to be so much that I was considering a trip to China to improve the initial design of the part, but the make/model of that particular vehicle - demand eventually slowed as those vehicles aged out.

 

[LS1-IROC]

You're not wrong, but I think the magic variable is "volume". If this part is going to sell for years and you can sell (high) hundreds of them, I'd absolutely look at having it made elsewhere. You could still do the finish work (in mass). One of the big keys is volume. If you get the initial parts run right, you're good...

Will the "demand" for this product drop? I built specialty harnesses and custom EFI for a while - it was far too time consuming and "after sale support" consuming for me to continue. I did have a great run of 3-4 years manufacturing a drive-line part out of China.. But it was a slog shipping them.. It got to be so much that I was considering a trip to China to improve the initial design of the part, but the make/model of that particular vehicle - demand eventually slowed as those vehicles aged out.

It's somewhat difficult to predict the future demand. I've sold over a 1000 sets in the 6 years I have been making them. I initially thought I would be lucky to sell 50 sets, lol. Once I hit 50 sets I invested and bought an older industrial CNC VMC so I could speed up production and have complete control over it.
The part I make is for cars that are long since out of production and the factory style replacement parts (GM original parts are NLA) are just GM copies that they cheapened up and produce in bulk in China.
I will say I believe the demand will stay fairly steady as GM made a ton of these vehicles and they have experienced a huge surge in popularity over the last 10 years, Even more interesting is these parts can be used on other GM vehicles (G-body, 1st gen S10's....) of the same era and that's a market I have not tapped yet. So there is potentially a large segment out there that I guessing could support this endeavor for years to come....I just don't know if I have that kind of energy in me. It's a good problem to have I guess...lol
Ultimately what I would really like to do is find a buyer that wanted to take over the business so I could get a little chunk of change for what I've created and wash my hands of it totally. I have not tried that avenue yet.

 

[PCustoms]

It's somewhat difficult to predict the future demand. I've sold over a 1000 sets in the 6 years I have been making them. I initially thought I would be lucky to sell 50 sets, lol. Once I hit 50 sets I invested and bought an older industrial CNC VMC so I could speed up production and have complete control over it.
The part I make is for cars that are long since out of production and the factory style replacement parts (GM original parts are NLA) are just GM copies that they cheapened up and produce in bulk in China.
I will say I believe the demand will stay fairly steady as GM made a ton of these vehicles and they have experienced a huge surge in popularity over the last 10 years, Even more interesting is these parts can be used on other GM vehicles (G-body, 1st gen S10's....) of the same era and that's a market I have not tapped yet. So there is potentially a large segment out there that I guessing could support this endeavor for years to come....I just don't know if I have that kind of energy in me. It's a good problem to have I guess...lol
Ultimately what I would really like to do is find a buyer that wanted to take over the business so I could get a little chunk of change for what I've created and wash my hands of it totally. I have not tried that avenue yet.

So you're never going to tell us what the part actually is?

 

[LS1-IROC]

So you're never going to tell us what the part actually is?

No disrespect intended, and I'm just as shocked as anyone that the design hasn't been copied yet, I'm not going to advertise what it is at this point.
The point of this thread was to seek out if anyone had personal experiences with having additive manufacturing done by the cheapish companies in China, and if it was worth the risk/effort.
While I appreciate it, I don't need any suggestions about design, materials and applications. That's all figured out.

 

[PCustoms]

No disrespect intended, and I'm just as shocked as anyone that the design hasn't been copied yet, I'm not going to advertise what it is at this point.
The point of this thread was to seek out if anyone had personal experiences with having additive manufacturing done by the cheapish companies in China, and if it was worth the risk/effort.
While I appreciate it, I don't need any suggestions about design, materials and applications. That's all figured out.

I certainly wasn't offended or felt disrespected, but this is a weird position.

You openly sell a product, that is already a copy of something. You're here asking for advice on how to outsource making that item. There's at least a few people who have direct experience with the companies you're asking about, but you won't share what it is?

No one is going to copy this and start their own business out of the blue, if they were it would already be out there as an option. There's no IP to protect (and if there was China is a terrible choice).

Good luck, hope everything works out.

 

[LS1-IROC]

You openly sell a product, that is already a copy of something. You're here asking for advice on how to outsource making that item. There's at least a few people who have direct experience with the companies you're asking about, but you won't share what it is?

No one is going to copy this and start their own business out of the blue, if they were it would already be out there as an option. There's no IP to protect (and if there was China is a terrible choice).

Good luck, hope everything works out.

It's not a copy, it my own design that performs the same function as the original while being stronger and looking better. I'm 100% sure there is no one reading this thread that is a buyer for my product, so what it is, is irrelevant.
I talked with a patent attorney when I started this endeavor, while he agreed it is patenable, however we decided the juice isn't worth the squeeze on this product because mainly I don't have a big enough bank account to defend it.
Thanks for the well wishes!

 

[dcg9381]

You don't have to disclose, but we've got a lot of people here that are really good at machining and building things. And you're building these yourself, you're not disclosing a source. It's all labor. There are probably 1000 parts that I could manufacture that are in some factory style replacement parts catalog, no longer available from GM, and I could do them better than a China copy. I sure wouldn't pick one that is already being built from a small-time manufacturer that already makes the better version of the part and then I'd have to come in "under" that pricing to be competitive... But that's just me.

1000 parts in 6-years isn't particularly high volume. Decent good side business and I get why you like it.. It'll be a tough business to sell outright as you're the labor and single point of failure. I can see the business sell as a % of revenue split, but it's a risk in a limited market as people "age" the interest in whatever-generation of GM cars will decrease as will the number of cars on the road that need those parts.

Maybe split the difference: Can you employ someone to run your CNC and build these parts at an hourly rate you can live with? College kid looking for work, etc?

If you want to do this at volume, I'd find a way to produce it and then get that part into the catalogs for no-longer-made GM parts, you'd need to wholesale or drop ship. The more catalogs you get into though, the more "price pressure" you will get from retailers. RockAuto darn near pushed me out of business - they wouldn't let me sell "direct" at under their list price. I did 10x the volume through them that I did on my own. Basically they said if I wanted them to carry the part, they had to be the lowest price on the internet or they would drop me.

What really pushed me out was a demand that I carry a "high amount" of insurance on parts that I sold. That was it. Out of the parts business.

The upside I do see, as these cars (and their parts) become harder and harder to find, people will pay a LOT of money for certain parts. Maybe that fits the current business model of limited production with higher profit? I know with 240Z cars I literally threw away what would be tens of thousands worth of parts today... I see people paying stupid money for certain parts.... And there is good money in making high quality reproductions.

 

[mike93lx]

Maybe split the difference: Can you employ someone to run your CNC and build these parts at an hourly rate you can live with? College kid looking for work, etc?

If the margins are so thin that this couldn't even be a little better than break even, it's not a part worth making

 

[HoosierBuddy]

i feel for you OP.

I came up with a design for a trim plate for Sanden Air Compressors I liked. Made one for myself and was so proud of it I bragged about it on a forum. Next thing you know I'm spending all my time machining a 3 piece trim plate assembly which I sell for $20 over material cost and takes a couple of hours on a manual mill to machine, drill, tap and assemble.

It was fun for awhile, but after you make 10 or 15 of them, the fun has turned into drudge.

Fortunately the guys that wanted them got them and I never bragged to anyone since about "I made this....isn't it cool?"

 

[PCustoms]

i feel for you OP.

I came up with a design for a trim plate for Sanden Air Compressors I liked. Made one for myself and was so proud of it I bragged about it on a forum. Next thing you know I'm spending all my time machining a 3 piece trim plate assembly which I sell for $20 over material cost and takes a couple of hours on a manual mill to machine, drill, tap and assemble.

It was fun for awhile, but after you make 10 or 15 of them, the fun has turned into drudge.

Fortunately the guys that wanted them got them and I never bragged to anyone since about "I made this....isn't it cool?"

$10/hr not including OH isn't worth it at all.

 

[LS1-IROC]

You don't have to disclose, but we've got a lot of people here that are really good at machining and building things. And you're building these yourself, you're not disclosing a source. It's all labor. There are probably 1000 parts that I could manufacture that are in some factory style replacement parts catalog, no longer available from GM, and I could do them better than a China copy. I sure wouldn't pick one that is already being built from a small-time manufacturer that already makes the better version of the part and then I'd have to come in "under" that pricing to be competitive... But that's just me.

1000 parts in 6-years isn't particularly high volume. Decent good side business and I get why you like it.. It'll be a tough business to sell outright as you're the labor and single point of failure. I can see the business sell as a % of revenue split, but it's a risk in a limited market as people "age" the interest in whatever-generation of GM cars will decrease as will the number of cars on the road that need those parts.

That's all this was ever intended to be, a side business to support my hobby and pay for some home improvements. I have to much to lose risking leaving my "real" career to pursue this full time. I have a family to support, if I was younger it might be different.

Maybe split the difference: Can you employ someone to run your CNC and build these parts at an hourly rate you can live with? College kid looking for work, etc?

It's been discussed, my son is 14 and I'm sure he will be looking for spending money soon, unfortunately he is not like his dad and has no interest in the things I do for fun...lol I'd have better luck with my daughter but she's too young to help right now.

If you want to do this at volume, I'd find a way to produce it and then get that part into the catalogs for no-longer-made GM parts, you'd need to wholesale or drop ship. The more catalogs you get into though, the more "price pressure" you will get from retailers. RockAuto darn near pushed me out of business - they wouldn't let me sell "direct" at under their list price. I did 10x the volume through them that I did on my own. Basically they said if I wanted them to carry the part, they had to be the lowest price on the internet or they would drop me.

What really pushed me out was a demand that I carry a "high amount" of insurance on parts that I sold. That was it. Out of the parts business.

Not my interest, I have turned down quite a few companies that want to carry my product. It's not happening. I have no problem moving product once its made so there is little motivation for that. I don't need exposure, I don't advertise. Now, if this was a full time gig it would be different.

The upside I do see, as these cars (and their parts) become harder and harder to find, people will pay a LOT of money for certain parts. Maybe that fits the current business model of limited production with higher profit? I know with 240Z cars I literally threw away what would be tens of thousands worth of parts today... I see people paying stupid money for certain parts.... And there is good money in making high quality reproductions.

Oh I know, the parts I have thrown in the scape bin over the years would be worth a significant amount these days.

 

[gte718p]

If you want to be cagey so be it. Lots of experience here, but without info there is a limit to how much people can help. A run of 10 is extremely different from a run of 10,000. A part requireing tolarances of +- 1 cm is very different from a part requireing +0 -.001mm.

Your relatively safe sending your parts of to the major firms like JLPCB or Shapeway. However, they are stupid expensive compared to the smaller Chinese's manufactures. They are large companies with millions in sales and they are not going to risk being stupid to make 5, 10, or 100k stealing your part. There is a decent chance the smaller firms will steal your IP. Been there, done that, have the tshirt If you are running enough parts it might actually be worth it. I was amused when my "Ferrari"part showed up on Aliexpress. Many buyers where upset when it didn't fit. Turns out it was for a Toyota 22RE and the drawing may have been mislabeled Just because you have the parts doesn't mean you have the distrobution network to sell them. It was absolutely worth it to run a couple of batches of a couple of hundred parts.

Quality is all over the board for the smaller firms. You really need someone in China to manage it. I have a friend who does 10+ million dollar automotive dies in China. They rival anything that is made in the US these days. However, they will cut any corner they can. If your contract is not extremely specific and you don't have good QA in place before payment, you are SOL. I had entire runs of parts that were defective with no recourse. On the other hand I also have had some amazing parts that cost less then it would cost me to buy raw materials in the US.

No experiance with mass producing addative manufacturing. However, I have gotten a couple of really good prototypes for JLPCB. I have used them for PCB design for years and never had an issue so it is who I went with when I needed FDM prototypes.

 

[Copymutt]

Would sand casting be feasible for all or part of the item? Very inexpensive & quick.

 

[Damon L.]

Lost PLA molding with aluminum?