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aluminum/copper

ezover

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3rd rock from the sun
since i have a back hoe available for awhile. i am running a new 3 wire line to the barn. just wondering what is the benefit of copper over aluminum and vise versa.
( i understand copper is a lot higher in price atm)
it's about a 100 foot run, open to any recommendation as to size and type, and what else i should drop in the trench. running a water line for sure.

thanks in advance for any pointers.

can not remember if i have 100 or 150 amp service out there, i will check it in the morning.
 
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Charles (in GA)

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You need to be running four wire, a ground, a neutral, and two hots.

Aluminum, when properly installed using anti-corrosive paste on the end connections, and proper torque on the lugs at each end, is quite serviceable and should give you years of trouble free service.

Charles
 
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tfi racing

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You need to be running four wire, a ground, a neutral, and two hots.

Aluminum, when properly installed using anti-corrosive paste on the end connections, and proper torque on the lugs at each end, is quite serviceable and should give you years of trouble free service.

Charles

I agree,unless you find a can't pass up deal on copper,save your money and go aluminum.As long as it is terminated correctly,it will do the job for many years.
 

mrb

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the one thing with aluminum, MAKE SURE you dont nick the insulation when installing it. Otherwise the aluminum will turn to dust after a few years underground. Best to install seperate conductors in conduit vs a direct burial cable.
 

35mastr

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I would just use the Copper. Its more trouble free tha the Aluminum.

You can either pay for the good stuff now or pay later and do it all over again somewhere down the line.
 

79BlackPearl

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Bossier City, LA
since i have a back hoe available for awhile. i am running a new 3 wire line to the barn. just wondering what is the benefit of copper over aluminum and vise versa.
( i understand copper is a lot higher in price atm)
it's about a 100 foot run, open to any recommendation as to size and type, and what else i should drop in the trench. running a water line for sure.

thanks in advance for any pointers.

can not remember if i have 100 or 150 amp service out there, i will check it in the morning.

Lot of information requested here....so let's dissect it.

I'm going to assume this will need to be inspected, therefore, my response is based on ICC codes; so double your local first.

1) Our local code says that you can bury electrical and plumbing in the same trench provided: a) the entire electrical circuit is in conduit or... b)the direct burial cable is separated from the plumbing by 24", side to side distance.

2) Cable choices, again in conduit, cable "type" (not conductor material) is of no concern. If it's not in conduit, you'll need direct burial cable. If you do use direct burial, when it exits the ground, make sure the conduit extends at least 18" below ground.

3) Copper is the best to use. The problem with aluminum is that when electricity flows through it, it heats up. No electricity, it cools down. This causes the aluminum to expand, retract, expand, retract, expand, retract, on and on and on:shocking:....you get the picture. Therefore, over time, as others have suggested, if not properly torqued and installed, it has the potential to come loose and possibly cause a fire. THIS IS THE REASON 100%OF ALL INTERIOR WIRE IS COPPER (at least Louisiana code).

Why aluminum as power service entrance? It's pretty simple, it's under a constant load, as some device somewhere is pulling amperage across the lines. No heating up and cooling down periods. In Louisiana, 99% of all power service entrance cable is aluminum and with virtually no problems.

In Louisiana, aluminum is not allow on branch circuits (the homes interior circuits. It's just too dangerous.)

4) When sizing wire, some factors need to be considered; much of the info required to size was not mentioned. Therefore, below is a little electrical matrix that should put you on the right path.

Constant = 100' run (you need to account for voltage drop at that distance)

120V Service
100 amps needs #4 copper or #2 aluminum
150 amps needs #2 copper or 1/0 aluminum
200 amps needs #1 copper or 2/0 aluminum

240V Service
100 amps needs #6 copper or #4 aluminum
150 amps needs #4 copper or #3 aluminum
200 amps needs #4 copper or #2 aluminum

5) What else to run in the trench? Have you considered cable/satellite wiring, CAT6 maybe for internet from the house? Smartest is to lay 1 size larger conduit and run some cable pulls through it. That way at a later date, it's pretty simple to pull "what-ever" cable you need through the conduit.

Hope this helps out. :thumbup:

Also, if the matrix doesn't cover you sizes, here is a simple calculator that can help you out. http://www.csgnetwork.com/wiresizecalc.html
 

Motofixxer

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A good wiring option is regular Al Service entrance cable. It's 2-2-2-4 Just drop at least 2" PVC then pull it through, or run it as your putting the pipe together. You could just pull a rope through as you assemble the PVC. Then pull the cable with that rope. The Service cable is reasonably priced at around $1\ft.
As for extras to run in there separated from the power. I would also run Quadshield Coax for cable\sat. Cat6 for data network, and 2 extras runs for phone, alarm, or future use.
Over size your conduit, bury at least 24", and pull an extra pull cord that stays in there for pulling future runs.
 
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mrb

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120V Service
100 amps needs #4 copper or #2 aluminum
150 amps needs #2 copper or 1/0 aluminum
200 amps needs #1 copper or 2/0 aluminum

240V Service
100 amps needs #6 copper or #4 aluminum
150 amps needs #4 copper or #3 aluminum
200 amps needs #4 copper or #2 aluminum

those ampacities are pretty off. where did you get them from?

and 200 amps is 200 amps whether its at 240v or 120v......

edit: also, to clarify on the aluminum: the old aluminum from the 70s is what expanded and contracted and caused loose connections and fires. This has NOTHING to do with the aluminum used today which is a different alloy. Aluminum is used inside every day on larger loads such as A/C and electric ranges, feeds to subpanels, etc. The reason AL is used for distribution and service entrance cables is purely cost. It has nothing to do with "being under constant load and not expanding and contracting". It is nice you are trying to help, but erroneous (and potentially costly and dangerous such as the ampacities listed above) information does nothing to help the OP or others who visit this forum.
 
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Aceman

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Eastern Oregon
3) Copper is the best to use. The problem with aluminum is that when electricity flows through it, it heats up. No electricity, it cools down. This causes the aluminum to expand, retract, expand, retract, expand, retract, on and on and on:shocking:....you get the picture. Therefore, over time, as others have suggested, if not properly torqued and installed, it has the potential to come loose and possibly cause a fire. THIS IS THE REASON 100%OF ALL INTERIOR WIRE IS COPPER (at least Louisiana code).

120V Service
100 amps needs #4 copper or #2 aluminum
150 amps needs #2 copper or 1/0 aluminum
200 amps needs #1 copper or 2/0 aluminum

240V Service
100 amps needs #6 copper or #4 aluminum
150 amps needs #4 copper or #3 aluminum
200 amps needs #4 copper or #2 aluminum

Bottom line, you're confused. The only thing that has potential to start a fire is for folks to take electrical advice from you.

If you think anyone would install a 200 amp 120v service for their home or garage as well as install #4 copper to do it, you're an idiot.

This has to be in the Top 5 of the worst electrical posts I've ever read on here....
 

Gary S

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Bismarck, ND
I haven't priced wire lately. Does anybody know what the price of copper and aluminum are today?
When I did my garage back in 2004, the copper was so affordable that I would not even consider using aluminum.
I've never understood why people will spend $25K on a garage and then balk at spending a few hundred dollars to wire it correctly.
Aluminum works, but I do only copper for myself.
 

mrb

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Bottom line, you're confused. The only thing that has potential to start a fire is for folks to take electrical advice from you.

If you think anyone would install a 200 amp 120v service for their home or garage as well as install #4 copper to do it, you're an idiot.

This has to be in the Top 5 of the worst electrical posts I've ever read on here....


im almost thinking thats a chart from a power company for overhead service drops....
 

nate379

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Palmer, AK
I don't know where that info comes from but it's off from what I was told!

I believe this should be correct for the panel, but I'm not a pro, so I could be wrong..

NEC 2008 Table 310.15(B)(6).

Amp - Cu - Al
100 - 4 ---- 2
110 - 3 ---- 1
125 - 2 ---- 1/0
150 - 1 ---- 2/0
175 - 1/0 - 3/0
200 - 2/0 - 4/0
225 - 3/0 - 250
250 - 4/0 - 300
300 - 250 - 350
350 - 350 - 500
400 - 400 - 600

120V Service
100 amps needs #4 copper or #2 aluminum
150 amps needs #2 copper or 1/0 aluminum
200 amps needs #1 copper or 2/0 aluminum

240V Service
100 amps needs #6 copper or #4 aluminum
150 amps needs #4 copper or #3 aluminum
200 amps needs #4 copper or #2 aluminum

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Charles (in GA)

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50 mi south of Atlanta


I suspect that info relates to pure aluminum. Most processed aluminum (alloys) are a blend of AL with other metals, including copper. While AL does not conduct as well as copper, that doesn't make it inferior. Properly sized it is just as functional and long lasting as copper.

I don't know where that info comes from but it's off from what I was told!

I believe this should be correct for the panel, but I'm not a pro, so I could be wrong..

NEC 2008 Table 310.15(B)(6).

Amp - Cu - Al
100 - 4 ---- 2
110 - 3 ---- 1
125 - 2 ---- 1/0
150 - 1 ---- 2/0
175 - 1/0 - 3/0
200 - 2/0 - 4/0
225 - 3/0 - 250
250 - 4/0 - 300
300 - 250 - 350
350 - 350 - 500
400 - 400 - 600

That table is only acceptable for dwelling feeders and services, it should not/cannot be used to size feeder/branch circuit cables and wires to supply non-dwellings. Use Table 310.16 instead, which will require slightly larger/heavier wire sizes generally.

Charles
 
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