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Amateur structural engineers wanted

JackOfDiamonds

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This is the framing plan for my 2nd-story addition, with porch space underneath. The 2nd story will be a normal residential floor, there will be 2x6 stud walls all around, and have a roof overtop.

Do you think the 2x12 rim joists should be doubled? Based on the spans all being 8 ft or less, I don't think it's needed, but it just seems like it would look better if the rim joints were double. I haven't submitted the permits yet.

Screenshot from 2025-12-03 16-57-09.jpg
 
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jar944

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This is the framing plan for my 2nd-story addition, with porch space underneath. The 2nd story will be a normal residential floor, there will be 2x6 stud walls all around, and have a roof overtop.

Do you think the 2x12 rim joists should be doubled? Based on the spans all being 8 ft or less, I don't think it's needed, but it just seems like it would look better if the rim joints were double. I haven't submitted the permits yet.

Screenshot from 2025-12-03 16-57-09.jpg

Your rim joists aren't really rim joists, they are flush beams.

Doubled is a minimum.
 
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JackOfDiamonds

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Your rim joists aren't really rim joists, they are flush beams.

Doubled is a minimum.

That's what I thought; it just didn't seem right being single.

Is there any gotcha for just substituting the I-type beams for regular dimensional lumber? They drop right in the same hangers and everything? How do you pick one; are they just as generic within their category?
 

loganb

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Agreed, double them

As equally important if not more important is their attachment to the existing structure.

Not sure what common practice is in your area, but here those posts will be ignored for load bearing purposes so your connections back to existing structure must be rated for the full load. More often I'm seeing lags/structural screws as being deemed not sufficient and must thru bolt with oversized washers on both sides and leave them exposed for framing inspection.

Review the locally adopted version of your IRC, between that and the Simpson Strongtie catalog you should have plenty to get you past the inspection!
 

mike93lx

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That's what I thought; it just didn't seem right being single.

Is there any gotcha for just substituting the I-type beams for regular dimensional lumber? They drop right in the same hangers and everything? How do you pick one; are they just as generic within their category?
I joists (generally) use a 2x3 for the top and bottom, on edge, so the dimensions and hangers are different. I wouldn't actually use them here, but could see going for lvl. They are dead straight, dimensionally perfect and very strong.
 

LopezBart

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The flush beams on the far side look like they support the floor, plus the wall and the roof loads. Add those loads up (using expected snow loads for your area) and size the beams accordingly using beam tables. As loganb points out, the fasteners are critical and are likely limited in bearing area; you'll want to consider appearance here as well given that it's a patio.
 

wssix99

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Shocked that a professional's stamp wouldn't be required to permit something that people would live in.

If you are making the drawings to save on the cost of an architect who is going to pull the permit, I would just ask them this question. They will have the local answer and should be more correct to your situation/local codes than us.
 

loganb

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Shocked that a professional's stamp wouldn't be required to permit something that people would live in.

The overwhelming majority of houses built in the US are not stamped/sealed by a professional...architect or engineer. Some markets have higher levels of involvement by professionals then others...but it's far less common then people generally expect.

Part of what the building code(specifically residential code) is documenting acceptable building practices, spans etc so that professionals aren't required on every build. Follow the code book and most of the questions are answered without needing a stamping professional. Straying off the code guidelines is where the professional approval is often required to make the building inspections pass.

Structural engineer stamps are slightly more common, but their scope is very limited. They may only do foundation and pier/footing sizing, review on structure on a wall taller then a certain size or validating load bearing beam sizes.
 

jar944

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I thought your mid span blocking on the 16' joists was another beam.

I'd consider a different design and or engineered lumber.
 
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JackOfDiamonds

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It's just blocking, because the 16' span is on the long side for 2x10s, so those long joists will need to be I-beams.

I could make that blocking into a real beam, and that would reduce the span, but then I'd have to move it back toward the house to tie it into the bay window, and it wouldn't be in the middle anymore, but it would work, and would allow regular 2x10s.
 

wssix99

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The overwhelming majority of houses built in the US are not stamped/sealed by a professional...architect or engineer.
I used the word "stamped" carelessly.

For something like an addition, (foundation + roof) I would expect a licensed professional to be involved on a plan before a permit is given. For things like building structures according to established plans/guidebooks - a professional was involved in the drafting of those items, but I don't believe that is what we are talking about here.

I would still be shocked that a professional would not need to be involved for pulling a permit for a custom-designed structure.
 

Hank11

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Your drawing is confusing. Will there be a roof system on top of this or will there be living space and then a roof on top? An elevation and a plan view would help a lot. The drawing exhibits what many drawings show here at GJ - a complete lack of the actual connection of the components. As if magic bubble gum holds it all together.
 

Hank11

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I used the word "stamped" carelessly.

For something like an addition, (foundation + roof) I would expect a licensed professional to be involved on a plan before a permit is given. For things like building structures according to established plans/guidebooks - a professional was involved in the drafting of those items, but I don't believe that is what we are talking about here.

I would still be shocked that a professional would not need to be involved for pulling a permit for a custom-designed structure.
People have been building houses on "dead reckoning" and "how pawpaw did it when he helped his uncle back before the big war" for centuries. The vast majority don't fall down.
 
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JackOfDiamonds

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Your drawing is confusing. Will there be a roof system on top of this or will there be living space and then a roof on top? An elevation and a plan view would help a lot. The drawing exhibits what many drawings show here at GJ - a complete lack of the actual connection of the components. As if magic bubble gum holds it all together.
There will be a habitable room, 2x6 walls, and prefab trusses on top.
 

wssix99

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Nope, not even close to a requirement
Jogging my memory... That's correct. There are avenues to have the municipality engineers do a plan review.

In a populated area, the price to pay an A/E to submit the plans, skip the review time, avoid (some) revisions and do whatever one wants is well worth it.
 

loganb

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I would still be shocked that a professional would not need to be involved for pulling a permit for a custom-designed structure.

It's going to vary significantly by jurisdiction, but for a significant majority of the geographic US....nope professional involvement not required even on a custom build. Now there are exceptions....lots of CA you can't place the portajohn and perimeter fence without a 19 page site plan and environmental impact study...but that's not the norm....at least outside of CA its not the norm

I'm in engineering/technical sales support for one of the major window companies, my territory used to be the west half of the US but I've moved over to a distributor now so my territory is now smaller. CA, parts of Colorado, Seattle to Portland of the PNW were generally the most onerus....outside of that....pretty open. Some locations may require a soil survey due to unique soil conditions, or require a P.E. stamp on a wall taller than 12' but in those conditions all they are reviewing are those specific elements. I review more then 10 fully custom house plans a week that are 5k sq ft or above and I'll probably have less then 3 a month with PE or Architect stamps anywhere to be seen. I can only think of 2 houses here in the last year that were completely designed/overseen by a licensed architect...one of which is 15k sq ft and under construction, the other is around 7k sq ft and starts in the spring.

I also hate the practice of not involving these professionals more often on these projects. The software the designers are using to make these doesn't do structural well and we end up with a lot of really stupid stuff. The designers are being paid to help meet the clients functional and aesthetic goals....builder is responsible for the structure and how it's built which includes code compliance. Unfortunately a lot of the time they just sub it out to the framer without review, the inspector(if they show up) spot checks that as built matches or exceeds the plans....and so on and so on it goes

A lot of these builds are in the range of $500 to $800 a sq ft depending on location and details....but assuming 700/square ft on 5k sq ft....hire a damn P.E. at least to review structure, headers, load bearing beams etc. You're spending a couple grand for insurance on a $3 to $4 million dollar investment. But regardless of the logic, with the current affordability challenges in housing, attempts to require additional professional involvement (which will cost money) even in the 7 figure builds will be met with significant push back.

My team gets one complaint a month from new home builders whose customers are having problems operating their 12'-16' sliding door. So we go out, pop a laser or stringline on to show the bow at the top then ask the builders rep if they want us to pull the trim so they can see the bow in the header themselves. They decline, then go back to the office and get to share the message that their 2 ply lvl header(in a 2x6 wall) was significantly undersized and needs fixed. So they get to cut drywall back, get the header straightened, add another lvl ply (assuming that alone is sufficient), then fix all the drywall, paint, trim etc. it's not fun for anyone and we try to highlight potential problems early on...but can't force them to do anything
 
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Hank11

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Visualize this as if only posts and beams are holding up the part over the patio. That outside wall would be much better if it were just that - big posts with a big beam and the floor system above sitting on top of the big beam. How you tie in to the existing structure is very important too. And about here is where you should hire a real engineer. This is more complicated than it might seem. But I think completely doable. Should not cost too much, just find the right guy.
 

dcg9381

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Doubled is a minimum.
This. There are 3 things in play:

1) Do you need an engineered/stamped drawing?
2) Will an Engineer do this for you? (Hint: We don't anymore, we use software otherwise we charge $1k+)
3) Do you just want it to work?

If you don't need a stamp, don't bother with a stamp.
If you need an engineer, find lumber provider that will do this as a courtesy as part of providing the stamp.
If you just want it to work, double it. Or do it in steel.
If you want an engineer to do a static design for this, expect $1k+ and maybe you can get a reference. You don't get to set the spacing, we do... You have to show the holistic drawing. Let me know if you want examples.


Personally, I'd over-build it. For the cost of rim joists, you can go to LVL and not question it. No one engineered this stuff back in the times of most homes, as as a non-PE engineer, just over build it.
 
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JackOfDiamonds

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Further research suggests this entire concept is unpermittable. For a habitable structure, the post support is not compliant with shear requirements. It would have to be a structural steel shear frame, with big feet bolted to concrete, or I would have to build one or more shear walls on the lower level. Which is not what I wanted, but that would be the cheap way out... make it more of an outdoor sunroom than a patio.
 

tarmy

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Out here you gotta have structural engineering stamp for basically everything…earthquakes are a thing.

OP, my question would be…do I want my family/kids up a floor hoping that I built it well enough? Seems like very cheap insurance for ensuring the safety on your family. Your call.
 

billconner

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The first national model code for one and two family dwellings was published in 1971. Before that, not much in the way of a building code for these buildings. Just builders and traditions for the most part.

Today's IRC is a prescriptive code. No registered design professionals required. If you want to use a design based on performance, registered design professionals are required, sssuming you want to follow the law. There are some exceptions, areas where there is no code adopted by legislators.
 

CV428

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I do feel compelled to mention the vast vast majority of people with engineering degrees, who are employed as engineers, do not, and have no reason to posess a PE license.

Like the several thousand engineers involved in designing an iPhone, for example.

I considered it early in my career. Then, I talked with a few PEs. Engineering carries a severe level of scrutiny and lose/lose scenarios to begin with. Having a PE stamp just invites even more scrutiny. I decided against it.

I've been in engineering for over 20 years- closer to 34 if you go strictly by hours worked. It's miserable thankless work at best. Every stock photo showing smiling people around a large conference table pointing at drawings and shaking hands is beyond fake. As for OP, I have some serious concerns with the joining methods, shear loading, etc. With that said, residential construction is not my forte, and I would strongly advise consulting with an RS engineer. Shake their hand and say "I appreciate what you do," they'll probably break down into tears before helping you.
 
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Hank11

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Further research suggests this entire concept is unpermittable. For a habitable structure, the post support is not compliant with shear requirements. It would have to be a structural steel shear frame, with big feet bolted to concrete, or I would have to build one or more shear walls on the lower level. Which is not what I wanted, but that would be the cheap way out... make it more of an outdoor sunroom than a patio.
The amateur engineers of Garage Journal save the day once again.
 

racecougar

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I considered it early in my career. Then, I talked with a few PEs. Engineering carries a severe level of scrutiny and lose/lose scenarios to begin with. Having a PE stamp just invites even more scrutiny. I decided against it.
Reading that, I felt like I wrote it. Ditto. 💯 I've made it way up the chain without completing the PE; obtaining that only has downsides for me.
 

rharman

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When we remodeled in 1993 - adding a second story, expanding the first - my recollection is that we needed a structural engineer sign off on things like shear walls, foundation, anchoring... the whole 9 yards. Also energy loss calcs. The city outsources their plan check and it was quite thorough.

We did hire architects to do all the design, plans, and project management. It went really well. At one point, the contractor asked about a change to the roof/wall anchoring and the engineer looked and gave it his blessing.
 

jar944

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Further research suggests this entire concept is unpermittable. For a habitable structure, the post support is not compliant with shear requirements. It would have to be a structural steel shear frame, with big feet bolted to concrete, or I would have to build one or more shear walls on the lower level. Which is not what I wanted, but that would be the cheap way out... make it more of an outdoor sunroom than a patio.

Assuming it's attached to the main house, that's a rather common method of addition (at least around here) without expanding the foundation footprint.

Unless you are in some niche location with hurricanes and or earthquakes I don't see why the basic layout is a problem.
 

jar944

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Those 2x10 14 foot spans will bounce, chocking will only help minimize it, I would go LVL for those spans. Have about the same width in a couple rooms, the previous owner removed lolli columns and I had to reinstall them.
Would be cheaper and easier to leave the lvls for the beams and use I joists on the 16' spans.
 

billconner

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If I missed this I apologize but is new room a bedroom or more like a living room? Per code that's either 30 PSF or 40 PSF.

And do you intend the vertical 6x6s to be continuous to top plate? Insulation weakness but probably solves lateral bracing.
 

carcruse

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Reading that, I felt like I wrote it. Ditto. 💯 I've made it way up the chain without completing the PE; obtaining that only has downsides for me.

Depends on what chain you are climbing and how high you want to go. If Civil Engineering and you are submitting plans (site, road, utility, house over 3000 sf, etc.) to government entities, someone will have to seal the plans.
 

racecougar

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Depends on what chain you are climbing and how high you want to go. If Civil Engineering and you are submitting plans (site, road, utility, house over 3000 sf, etc.) to government entities, someone will have to seal the plans.
Certainly. I went ME. I won't disclose my position here, but I'll say that I'm quite happy with how things have worked out.
 
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