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And now I have ice dams

RumRiver5.0

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River Bend
Hey everyone, if there is one thing I really enjoy it is being in my attached garage. I got my stuff out there, my crummy old foxbody, tools, beer, beer signs and general hooliganism with friends - or by myself away from the wife until she comes in and bugs me.

At any rate, I need advice on how to handle this ice dam issue that's going on with the attached garage. It *****. I installed a home furnace to the garage around five years ago. It's vented out of the roof. Prior to having my house re shingled, resided and vents added onto the garage roof there were no ice dams or leaks to speak of. I think I basically had a "hot roof" before? I have old *** insulation on the walls and roof, no ceiling, no soffit vents. The roof has no moisture barrier plastic or channels or whatever is needed for heat.

I'll post up some pics from my phone.

What are you guys thinking I need to do?
 
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RumRiver5.0

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Pics?
 

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RumRiver5.0

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I know this garage is out of sorts. I'm just waiting to hear about it! This insulation has been nasty for quite some time FYI. The upper walls on the house side have had mold on them at least since 2012 when I moved in
 
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Jlbc212

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Simple solution - turn off the heat or remove the snow from the roof. Ideally you need to keep the under surface of the roof cold to prevent heat from the inside from melting snow on the roof. This is often done by insulating above the ceiling (which it looks like you presently don't have) and installing soffit and ridge vents so that the attic area is kept cold.
 

Doug Arthurs

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For a quick solution to get rid of ice dams they sell ice melter in pucks you can throw up onto the roof to melt them.
 
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RumRiver5.0

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Before the roof vents this was not an issue. There were no ice dams. So apparently what I am looking for is that I have to develop a channel between the roof and soffits now that I have these damn vents?
 

RPH

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You can use old socks or nylons stuffed with deicer thrown on the roof like sausages. Make sure the ice melt you use is compatible with the roof and where it’s going to drain to. Last thing you want is a big dead area because you salted the earth in that area.
 

RPH

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You can use old socks or nylons stuffed with deicer thrown on the roof like sausages. Make sure the ice melt you use is compatible with the roof and where it’s going to drain to. Last thing you want is a big dead area because you salted the earth in that area.
 
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Showkey

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Ice dams ........are an insulation problem..........roof deck is too warm.

Insulation and ventilation done right........ice dams are no longer a problem.
 

countryroad82

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My suggestion would be to close off the trusses. You’re basically heating unnecessary area due to the trusses being more or less storage space with probably an extra 4’-5’ area up there you basically don’t need heated. That in turn is causing the icicles. I’ve got a 30’X50’X12’ shop that used to be horrible to try to keep at a workable temperature during the winter months. I got the bright idea to buy some cheap plastic sheeting and stapled it to the bottom of my trusses. It’s not pretty nor is it the best thing to keep that heat down but it sure made WORLDS of a difference in heating the shop up and keeping it warm. Eventually I plan on closing it off more permanently but this works for now. I can definitely see the difference on how much heat travels to the roof as I don’t get that huge snow slide coming off in the shop lol. I have a cutout so I can access the storage above but I keep **** that is more long term and long forgotten up there anyway.
 

joeysh03

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What about those heating elements that you can put in your gutters and on the lower foot or two of the shingles to keep everything flowing when it melting
 

Showkey

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Yes, I'm looking for advice to accomplish this.

Sorry through you were looking for the cause
Get the snow off the roof is the only fix for now and lower the heat in the garage.

Rafter insulation is not adequate. Insulation to R38 or greater by installing a ceiling in the garage and vent the soffit area. There must be air flow on the roof desk to keep below freezing.

Link to example

https://memphite.com/Y29sZCByb29mIHZlbnRpbmc/

Google roof “insulation and ventilation” you will get 100s of diagrams and detailed instructions.


Insulation on the deck bottom can be done but it’s very difficult to get right and expensive to do right. Often there is not enough space to get the need R value. Foam is expensive and the deck must be dry and rot free.

What you currently have is a cathedral ceiling.......Cathedral ceiling insulation info

https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/how-to-build-an-insulated-cathedral-ceiling
 
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Motoman1100

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Get the snow off the roof is the only fix for now.

Rafter insulation is not adequate. Insulation to R38 or greater by installing a ceiling in the garage and vent the soffit area. There must be air flow on the roof desk to keep below freezing.

Link to example

https://memphite.com/Y29sZCByb29mIHZlbnRpbmc/

This.

The real purpose of a roof is not to keep the house warm, but the rain and snow out. In a perfect world the air under your roof would be the same temp as outside. Having spent the better part of my adult life in the Upper Midwest this is a subject I'm way too familiar with.
 

hefnerconstructionlc

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It’s a simple fix. The insulation is touching the underside of your roof decking. Need to install Styrofoam or plastic battles to make an airgap then reinstall your insulation. Problem solved
 

jonshonda

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I typically use a roof rake and remove the first few feet of snow from the edge of the roof. That way when it does melt it has a place to go.
 

ripperd

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Ice dams ........are an insulation problem..........roof deck is too warm.

Insulation and ventilation done right........ice dams are no longer a problem.

That is not 100% true. There are scenarios where ice dams will form not due to warmth inside the building.

We have a west facing slopes that drain onto a north facing slope. On a 20ish degree sunny day, the warm sun will melt the snow on the west facing slope. This then runs down onto the north facing slope. Here, it is shaded and cool, and the melted snow re-freezes into ice dams and icicles.
 

Bretny

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Pics of the interior dont help!

First off you prob need to roof rake your roof. Sunnd days will help melt the ice if its not under snow.
If its in a valley you could lay heat tape over it to melt whats there.
 
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anythingyoucanimagine

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I recently did our garage at home. I spent a lot of time on green building advisor forums researching. If you Google "green building advisor insulate cathedral ceiling" that's basically what I did. We have attached 2-car.

Tools required:
Staple gun
Crown stapler or a small framing gun with short ring-shank nails
Some type of table saw or radial arm saw
Bandsaw is helpful but you can get by with oscillating tool or just risk your fingers on the table saw
Circular saw

Go buy:
1. a cheap roll of knock-off Tyvek
2. as much 2-by lumber you can from the culls pile at the orange store (home depot)
3. rafter baffles (I used the pink ones, they price out at my HD cheaper buying the 10-packs than the case price)
4. a roll of unfaced R-30
5. LOTS of 1/4" Staples for your staple gun
6. nails/staples for whatever nailer/stapler you choose to use
7. Good Stuff Pro Gun (with cleaner, etc.) and a case of Good Stuff gaps & cracks cans
8. 1/4" galvanized mesh screen (smaller mesh if you can find it)
9. several cases of beer


I used RAS to rip however with whatever tool you have (table saw/radial arm saw), cross-cut all the 8-foot sections of culls lumber into ~4' pieces to make them manageable. Next rip them down to 3/4" wide by 1-1/2" strips. (now you have a ton of 3/4 by 1-1/2 --essentially furring strips)


Get your *** up on a ladder and start stapling (crown stapler or short ring shank nails) the strips to the sides of your rafters --up against the bottom of your roof deck. This is where it gets time consuming. You'll get up there and realize that the roofing nails don't let you set your strips flush against the bottom of the roof deck. Push the strip up into the nail point then take a pencil and circle it (so you don't miss one). Then (I used a bandsaw) use a cutting tool to cut notches into the strips so they sit perfectly flush against the roof deck and you can staple/nail them to the sides of the rafters.

(Owens Corning pink rafter baffles are 1.5" (thick??) so this method worked for me well with the materials I chose to use)

Once you get strips running all the way up each side of every rafter, start installing your rafter baffles. (or install baffles first --doesn't matter) If they are cold, be a little gentle with them --they crack/break easy... But just shove them up in there, staple & get-er-done. Slide the edge of the rafter baffles all the way out to the shingles (outer edge of your top plates). That's important because you get extra R-value points for being able to insulate over your top plates. You want the baffles for air flow --but not to prevent insulating.

Cut down the 3/4" x 1-1/2" strips into (maybe ~6" long strips) and attach them vertically between the rafter strips and your top plates. This will make much more sense when you actually do it. It is time consuming and each individual strip needs to be measured and cut --no automation/production, everything is a one-off piece.


Insulate over your top plates with the R-30. Don't shove it down into the soffit box and don't worry about completely air sealing the soffit-box-to-rafter baffle interface, just put enough pink insulation in there that you think bugs, critters and air won't get through. Pack it about twice as dense as it would be in a wall.


Take your Tyvek and staple one side of it all the way up the strips you just nailed to your rafters. Pull the other side tight and staple it across the rafter bay.


There you go... The goal is to keep the underside of your roof deck the same as the outside ambient air (temp and humidity). You just created a 1.5" air gap all the way from your soffit boxes up to your ridge vent.


For my soffit vents --we had vinyl siding up back then so I took a circ saw and ripped 4" strips down the entire length of the house (bottom of soffit boxes). Then I stapled the 1/4" mesh across the strips and put up vented siding to cover my sins.


I believe Tyvek has an R-value of (about zero) 0.25 and the good (commercial stuff that you can't buy at HD/Lowes) Tyvek has an R-Value of 0.5. You won't get much insulation between the air gap and the garage --but your ice dams will be gone.


I dont' know where River Bend is... Google your climate zone and then Google how much insulation you need over the air gap. I'm in 4-5 (marine). I think I need R-39 or maybe R-49. Either way it would have been a stupid amount of pink stuff. I used 2" thick rigid foam insulation. Four layers so total of R-52 plus 1.5" air gap in 9.5 inches. If I were to do it over again it would have been cheaper to hire a company to come in and spray foam vs. buy the rigid foam strips. I have 2x6 rafters (19.2"OC) so 2x6= 5.5 actual... 1.5" air gap means I've got 4" to play with inside the rafter cavities. The rigid foam insulation I used is R-13 so rafter cavities got me up to R-26, then I ripped down more culls lumber into 2" strips and ran them perpendicular to the rafters. I used structural screws to attach those. So two strips (sealed with Great Stuff foam) going up rafter cavity then one strip across horizontally. I did 2-foot sections because it was easy to cut a 4x8 sheet in half the long way) Then I screwed in the final layer horizontally (so seams in the rigid foam were alternating) to get me up to R-52.


I needed to add more collar and rafter ties to support the weight because after all that I hung drywall. Check your local code, etc. get permits, blah blah...


What I did wasn't cheap but it still let me keep space up there to store a dangerous amount of car seats, gas tanks, trim/molding, headers/exhaust, etc. (that could come crashing down and kill me anytime it wants).


That's how to do it properly and keep a vaulted ceiling. Around the chimney just Google IBC notching and boring rules. Drill a couple holes up top by the chimney to let the air pass from one bay to the next and notch the foam insulation. Pretty easy/straightforward. Takes a LOT of time/effort but very worth doing.
 
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RumRiver5.0

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Feb 27, 2019
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River Bend
Sorry through you were looking for the cause
Get the snow off the roof is the only fix for now and lower the heat in the garage.

Rafter insulation is not adequate. Insulation to R38 or greater by installing a ceiling in the garage and vent the soffit area. There must be air flow on the roof desk to keep below freezing.

Link to example

https://memphite.com/Y29sZCByb29mIHZlbnRpbmc/

Google roof “insulation and ventilation” you will get 100s of diagrams and detailed instructions.


Insulation on the deck bottom can be done but it’s very difficult to get right and expensive to do right. Often there is not enough space to get the need R value. Foam is expensive and the deck must be dry and rot free.

What you currently have is a cathedral ceiling.......Cathedral ceiling insulation info

https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/how-to-build-an-insulated-cathedral-ceiling

Thanks Showkey, this is a bit to chew on for sure. 38R value GD! That **** must be 3 feet thick! :lol_hitti I'll be looking into this, will invest in a roof rake and will melt the snow off for now.
 
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RumRiver5.0

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My suggestion would be to close off the trusses. You’re basically heating unnecessary area due to the trusses being more or less storage space with probably an extra 4’-5’ area up there you basically don’t need heated. That in turn is causing the icicles. I’ve got a 30’X50’X12’ shop that used to be horrible to try to keep at a workable temperature during the winter months. I got the bright idea to buy some cheap plastic sheeting and stapled it to the bottom of my trusses. It’s not pretty nor is it the best thing to keep that heat down but it sure made WORLDS of a difference in heating the shop up and keeping it warm. Eventually I plan on closing it off more permanently but this works for now. I can definitely see the difference on how much heat travels to the roof as I don’t get that huge snow slide coming off in the shop lol. I have a cutout so I can access the storage above but I keep **** that is more long term and long forgotten up there anyway.

An easy inexpensive short term idea to try. I like that. Thanks.
 

brownbagg

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plywood the ceiling and have the insulation sitting on the ceiling and not the roof
 

Dagny

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We had 40 below zero and the next day it was raining. thats how my ice dams started. when it warms a little im going to use hot water.
 

Denwood

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plywood the ceiling and have the insulation sitting on the ceiling and not the roof

Yes, but likely code would require drywall. Insulate the new ceiling, making sure the soffits are ventilated, baffles at the eaves, and adequate gable or roof vents added. This is the easiest/cheapest route for you.
 

bad_idea

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The last two garages that I have had, the trusses were on 24" centers. I took Kraft faced fiberglass insulation and stapled it to the trusses, and then put furring strips crossways, every 2 feet, to hold the insulation up, so it wouldn't eventually sag down. Painted it white, and that is the ceiling, cheap and works great. Never have any problem with icing.

As others have said, the attic should be the same temp as outside, to prevent water problems.

Please consider the prevention of spreading fire before using a solution like this. I do a lot of welding/grinding in my shop and that would be a MAJOR fire hazard for me. Being an attached garage, you want to be extra cautious - especially if you have children.
 

Mick56

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Please consider the prevention of spreading fire before using a solution like this. I do a lot of welding/grinding in my shop and that would be a MAJOR fire hazard for me. Being an attached garage, you want to be extra cautious - especially if you have children.

Ok, I deleted my post so as not to give any bad ideas.
 

theoldwizard1

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If you already have ice dams, and I mean real SOLID ice 12" thick. there is only one solution. Hot water and lots of it.

I have one very small area of my roof that is prone to ice dams. A valley just below a poorly insulated area directs snow melt to a short section of roof with gutter. By the time the snow melt hits the gutters, it re-freezes.

A couple of years ago I installed heat cable in the area that loops down into the gutter. In the time it has been installed, I'll bet I have not had it plugged in for more than 100 hours. If I see ice accumulating above the top of the gutter, I plug it in. I have never used it more than about 8 hours at a time. It works best with a sunny day and unplug it for the night.
 

SALIV8

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I don't use my roof take anymore because it will damage the shingles. I could see the granules being washed away when it rained (after it warmed up) from the roof rake rollers.

I would leave the ice dam if it is not damaging anything and tarp the ceiling as suggested.
 
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RumRiver5.0

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I don't use my roof take anymore because it will damage the shingles. I could see the granules being washed away when it rained (after it warmed up) from the roof rake rollers.

I would leave the ice dam if it is not damaging anything and tarp the ceiling as suggested.

Unfortunately, after discussion with my finances and upcoming projects it appears I am stuck with the tarp idea. *****.
 

anythingyoucanimagine

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You can probably just stop heating the garage and be OK. Then manage proper roof deck venting and insulation a little at a time. If you get a big snow fall then get out there with a roof-rake. Don't go crazy, just get some/most of it around where you are getting the ice dams. Then on the next sunny/warm day crank the heat in the garage and melt it all away.


Socks/nylons filled with rock salt also works really well. Just tie two together with string and hang them over the peak of the roof. The weight of each will keep them where they are for a while.


Regardless, you want to get that insulation off the bottom of your roof deck. You really want an air gap, it's really important.
 

Zick

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We had 40 below zero and the next day it was raining. thats how my ice dams started. when it warms a little im going to use hot water.

Yup, this year has been terrible for ice dams. We haven't had an ice dam since we built our house and this is the first year we have them due to the crazy weather we've been getting.
 

Motoman1100

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Like other's mentioned, if there is no snow buildup on the roof there's nothing to turn into ice damns. All the snow just piles up and leads to it basically turning into insulation. The bottom of the snow would start to get warm, drain its way to the bottom edge where it froze and started backing up. Occasionally, when I used to live in the Upper Peninsula of MI, the best solution was to just get up there with a Finn Scoop (aka. Yooper Scooper) and clean the roof which lead to more hours of snowblowing the junk off of the sidewalks and driveway. Amazing how the slightest bit of roofing exposed to the sun led to it all melting away. You knew it was time to get up there when the back door started sticking closed from the weight above... UGH.... Did I mention I live in GA now...
 
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WIHD

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I think the salt pucks or nylons filled w/ salt may do more harm then good (I've done the nylon salt thing). It can cause melting under the snow that runs down and freezes on the roof lip (on gutter). Prob need to place them strategically, like literally ON the gutter on the formed dam itself.

I rake the edge of my roof, but due to record snow this Feb one dam was still forming. Last Saturday when it was a touch warm, I got out the ladder and worked my way down the side of the roof removing ice.
Used a small hand-axe (where it was thick) and a Wonderbar, what a great tool. Also a rubber hammer.

Don't see any pics showing the level you have, but that's what I'd do, plus I'd turn off the heat until late late Spring once this threat is gone.

wonder.jpg
 

Blueline

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I personally would pull the insulation down, install the baffles from the vented soffit to the ridge vent. Re-insulate and you should be ok. GL
 

bad_idea

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Ok, I deleted my post so as not to give any bad ideas.

I did not mean to **** all over your suggestion. Sounds like your solution is adequate for your building and your uses. I mean to say that in some (common) scenarios that would be a hazard.
 
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RumRiver5.0

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I threw about 15 pucks up there today as there is a foot of snow on the roof and thick ice on the edge.

I've lived here for 7 years and have never seen this much snowfall so late. Also, the roof is new with vents added. My idea is to plug the vents for the time being. I don't have a ridge vent. They are 3 roof vents added on one side of the roof.

My plan is to basically get some soffit vents in and give the top part its own atmosphere.
 

Jazz1

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Yep, drywall the ceiling along with vapour barrier and insulation. Never seen ice dam on my garage. Got to keep that roof stone cold.
 
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