Another 2 post lift anchor torque question

[giantsean]

Hi All,

I bought a Greg Smith Atlas PVL-10 ALI certified lift in late 2020 and had it professionally installed (I really wanted to do it myself but the shipping logistics were a giant pain, so for a few bucks more it was worth it). I have used it fairly infrequently (less than 10 times) lifting anything from your typical Mazda/Honda 4 door to a Gen 1 Toyota Tundra, which I recently replaced with a RAM 1500

Throughout ownership, it always wobbled a bit but has been dead level. What got me concerned was recently I had my wife's Mazda 6 all the way up to the top. My garage attic floor is less than 12' so I had to cut a hole in the floor to allow the cylinder through. This time I had a little heartstopper as the piston top hit wood. I chalked it up to cutting the hole while unloaded vs loaded. and just made the hole wider.

Now that I have the RAM which is a bit heavier than the Tundra, I decided to do some maintenance on my lift before I put the new truck on it. Long story short I got to looking into the wobble. I had my kids jump on the arms to see if there was any movement... there was shake but no lifting. However the round shims under the plate spun a bit by hand when unloaded. I grabbed the torque wrench and that's when it hit me... these were WAY too loose. Not hand loose but def not 150 lb/ft. I torqued them all up and. while I got a little wedge shift/pop, maybe a touch of spin, there were no pullouts and they all torqued to 150. All rock solid now and still level.

My question is... How common is this? I don't recall my installer telling me to re-check torque but the GS manual may reference it (it's terrible so I am not looking forward to it lol). I see some advice on GJ both to always re-torque, and some to never re-torque. Clearly mine needed it despite very little use. My concrete is >6" at that spot and no cracks, but this whole thing has left me both concerned and scratching my head. Say that I was not technical enough to use a torque wrench (unlikely if I have a lift, but go with it lol) Is this something the installer normally covers, or would I be on my own after install?

Thanks for any advice!

 

[Buckgnarly]

I snugged mine up the first few years, but they have been solid for about 2 years now. Install was 2017...I would nit worry about it.

 

[wssix99]

It happens. That's why the instructions say to check the torque every day. (Assuming we are in a commercial setting.)

Was your lift installed when it was cold outside? Maybe your anchors were cold when they were torqued and then warmed up and expanded?

 

[giantsean]

It happens. That's why the instructions say to check the torque every day. (Assuming we are in a commercial setting.)

Was your lift installed when it was cold outside? Maybe your anchors were cold when they were torqued and then warmed up and expanded?

They were actually done in Nov 2020 so just about 2 years. It was typical CT November weather, not too cold. I'm sure temperature changes over the seasons could have played a part.

 

[like2wheel]

I thought I saw somewhere that the re-torque number should be somewhat less than the original torque spec.

 

[giantsean]

I thought I saw somewhere that the re-torque number should be somewhat less than the original torque spec.

Thanks and I believe you. I finished looking through the manual and it states to torque to 150 upon install (or if you can't, pour a pad!) and check torque monthly. That said, it doesn't give another torque spec to check so I can only assume it's the original spec... OR I can also believe they just missed it... as I said the manual is pretty bad . I will give them a call tomorrow and ask.

 

[giantsean]

So I got through and was told 85lb/ft. He said no harm in going a little over. I already re-did the other side at 150 so I'm going to have to think about it. Is there an actual risk? Maybe they are just concerned about pull-out.

 

[CraigStu]

I have NO experience w/ lift fastners but dropping install torque from 150 to 85 as maintenance makes absolutely no sense to me. Heck, if they are concerned about pullout, I think they need to redo their install procedure. Best wishes to you but wow, I'd keep researching.

 

[charbar]

So I got through and was told 85lb/ft. He said no harm in going a little over. I already re-did the other side at 150 so I'm going to have to think about it. Is there an actual risk? Maybe they are just concerned about pull-out.

Unless you pulled a good amount of the anchor out when you retorqued then I wouldn't worry. I check mine from time to time when I think about it. Some are solid, some get snugged a little. As long as Im not pulling the anchor out I dont worry about it.

 

[no704]

In a commercial R&D shop I I ran we were required to have them inspected annually.

 

[like2wheel]

I have NO experience w/ lift fastners but dropping install torque from 150 to 85 as maintenance makes absolutely no sense to me. Heck, if they are concerned about pullout, I think they need to redo their install procedure. Best wishes to you but wow, I'd keep researching.

Just sounds to me like 85 ft/lbs is enough torque for the application, 150 was the initial torque to set the wedges.

 

[CraigStu]

Just sounds to me like 85 ft/lbs is enough torque for the application, 150 was the initial torque to set the wedges.

You may be correct. I wonder if their procedure says do the 150, loosen, re-torque to 85.

 

[giantsean]

You may be correct. I wonder if their procedure says do the 150, loosen, re-torque to 85.

I got the impression that the tech I talked to didn't do a ton of research on it and simply stated 85. I think GSE licensed a bunch of different models from different suppliers. Nothing I have found mentions loosening OR gives a different initial/check spec. I finally found one manual that spec'd both first install and retorque/check were 85, so one notch for the same spec for each camp.

I went to 100 anyway on the other side just to compare. Only one tiny wedge pop this time... I didn't measure extensively to see how much if any they were pulling out but both sides look normal and plenty tight, and columns are super solid now. The manual states checking these monthly so I'll give them a try early next year.

One more interesting observation that the left side is shimmed and in general was more loose than the right, but I guess it makes sense since the plate is not making direct contact and has more opportunity to pull on the anchors.

I would DEFINITELY recommend anyone w/ a lift to not ignore regular torque checking. From what I have experienced, it is critical.

 

[jasondavidmann]

The specification on my Rotary with Hilti fasteners was 150 ft lb install and 60 ft lb service monthly.

 

[CraigStu]

The specification on my Rotary with Hilti fasteners was 150 ft lb install and 60 ft lb service monthly.

Wow, this is interesting just from the tech point of view. I was thinking that the OP's retorque # was around 60% of the original. Now we have Rotory saying their # is a little over 1/3 the original.

 

[pattenp]

My Challenger CL9 specs 150 ftlb to set anchors and 80 ftlb final. I check torque randomly and the anchors have stayed at torque specs. But my lift is only used at most once a month.

 

[giantsean]

My Challenger CL9 specs 150 ftlb to set anchors and 80 ftlb final. I check torque randomly and the anchors have stayed at torque specs. But my lift is only used at most once a month.

Mine is even less than that though I did go a very long time without retorquing (maybe on the edge of dangerously long ).

One thing I did observe is that when trying to retorque to 150, or even 100, a select few of the anchors shifted and nuts continued to turn... eventually they got fully tight and it wasn't as bad as starting over but it definitely felt like a setback of sorts. I am not a concrete fastener expert, but just speculating that overtightening just exacerbates this... maybe the risk is if you go too hard they will eventually pull out or get worse just via the effort.

 

[69CHARGERMD]

150?
My bendpak xpr 10 AS 2 post states 85-95 ft lbs
In fact said not to exceed
Any concern with compromising the concrete or pulling the anchor loose from over torquing ?
I check mine regularly and keep them at 85-95

 

[giantsean]

150?
My bendpak xpr 10 AS 2 post states 85-95 ft lbs
In fact said not to exceed
Any concern with compromising the concrete or pulling the anchor loose from over torquing ?
I check mine regularly and keep them at 85-95

Yes a little concern (and that's part of the reason I wanted to bring it up in the first place), but the manual clearly states torque them to 150 (specifically, if they can't torque to 150# then do a new pad. I can't un-torque the ones I did to 150 but if the installer did not go that high, they are that high now (and the other side around 100). That said I don't think 50lb/ft is a big deal to 3500 psi 7" concrete, but I don't work for Hilti either.

I rechecked them all at 90. I would say 2 out of 14 turned a tiny bit but a 250# torque wrench has a lot of leverage (and smaller degree turns seem longer on the handle). Most of them popped the wrench right away... I will recheck them often though.

 

[finn]

150?
My bendpak xpr 10 AS 2 post states 85-95 ft lbs
In fact said not to exceed
Any concern with compromising the concrete or pulling the anchor loose from over torquing ?
I check mine regularly and keep them at 85-95

That’s what I remember from when I installed my BP AS 10k a few years ago.

I suspect some of the wild torque numbers quoted her are for oddball fasteners. The geometry of the wedge likely impacts torque required to produce a given radial load, and some lift manufacturers may have different concrete requirement specifications. Something seemingly as trivial as plate size and bolt spacing will impact anchor bolt torque specifications.

If in doubt, go by what the lift manufacturer recommends for your lift, for the fasteners they specify.

A lift seems to be a poor piece of equipment to do barstool engineering on.

 

[giantsean]

If in doubt, go by what the lift manufacturer recommends for your lift, for the fasteners they specify.

A lift seems to be a poor piece of equipment to do barstool engineering on.

Would agree 100%. I am guessing in reality there is also some over-engineering built in by the manufacturers that allows for so much variation in their manuals, specs, and techs. It's funny that the more I read about anchors, the more I see an element of art to go along with the science... it's one of those things where the spec can say 85 but if stuff is flopping around, you'd BEST do a little more digging. Maybe literally lol.

 

[Dig Doug]

Hi All,

I bought a Greg Smith Atlas PVL-10 ALI certified lift in late 2020 and had it professionally installed (I really wanted to do it myself but the shipping logistics were a giant pain, so for a few bucks more it was worth it). I have used it fairly infrequently (less than 10 times) lifting anything from your typical Mazda/Honda 4 door to a Gen 1 Toyota Tundra, which I recently replaced with a RAM 1500

Throughout ownership, it always wobbled a bit but has been dead level. What got me concerned was recently I had my wife's Mazda 6 all the way up to the top. My garage attic floor is less than 12' so I had to cut a hole in the floor to allow the cylinder through. This time I had a little heartstopper as the piston top hit wood. I chalked it up to cutting the hole while unloaded vs loaded. and just made the hole wider.

Now that I have the RAM which is a bit heavier than the Tundra, I decided to do some maintenance on my lift before I put the new truck on it. Long story short I got to looking into the wobble. I had my kids jump on the arms to see if there was any movement... there was shake but no lifting. However the round shims under the plate spun a bit by hand when unloaded. I grabbed the torque wrench and that's when it hit me... these were WAY too loose. Not hand loose but def not 150 lb/ft. I torqued them all up and. while I got a little wedge shift/pop, maybe a touch of spin, there were no pullouts and they all torqued to 150. All rock solid now and still level.

My question is... How common is this? I don't recall my installer telling me to re-check torque but the GS manual may reference it (it's terrible so I am not looking forward to it lol). I see some advice on GJ both to always re-torque, and some to never re-torque. Clearly mine needed it despite very little use. My concrete is >6" at that spot and no cracks, but this whole thing has left me both concerned and scratching my head. Say that I was not technical enough to use a torque wrench (unlikely if I have a lift, but go with it lol) Is this something the installer normally covers, or would I be on my own after install?

Thanks for any advice!

Concrete will expand and contract with weather conditions, so basically it moves! This May Be why it was loose.

Check it occasionally to make sure it’s tight, maybe tape “torque 100 ft lb anchor bolts “ to one of the posts As a reminder.

 

[Garrym]

Never checked either of mine. Been installed 8 and 10 years respectively.
But both are secured to the roof, both solid as rock. Vehicles on them barely move when I give them a shake.
The floor bolts only need to stop the base moving.
It’s a good feeling knowing they are that solid, when you’re under them.

 

[3rdgendslmech]

I've had my lift in for about 4 years now. It's a 10K floor plate lift from Atlas. The heaviest truck I've had on it was a crew cab long bed cummins 4x4. It lifted it no problem. After the first 2-3 cars I double checked the torque to 150 and none of them moved, everything still plumb. Then after the first year I double checked again, and again on the 2nd year and everything was still tight. When I installed the anchors for mine, I used concrete epoxy for extra insurance. The last 2 years I just set the torque wrench to 100 and yup theyre still tight.

 

[65ranchero]

Another installation technique when the base has to be shimmed is to pack non shrink grout between the gap between base of the lift and the floor.
Note this is after the lift is leveled and plumbed with shims in place and floor fasteners torqued to spec.

 

[Daedalus]

A lot of discussion on torquing, and no mention of anchor size. Should we assume 3/4" dia? Every single anchor I've researched had all the specifications needed published online and Hilti is no exception. The lift manufacturer should tell you what you need to do to meet their requirements. The anchor manufacturer will tell you what you need to do to meet the anchor's capabilities. The latter should meet or exceed the former.

 

[Imatk]

I would hope they would have left the lift install instructions and operating instructions with you. If they did all of this information SHOULD be in there.

On mine it shows exact torque values for install, inspection and how often to inspect.

If you don't have the documentation I would request it. It's better to have piece of mind and actually know.

Although to be fair sometimes documentation can lag behind. So get the doc, and then call to confirm the numbers.

Bendpak is pretty good about sending whatever you need related to that stuff so hopefully you can get that info.