Another breaker box question-- which one?

[ixlr8]

I am at the point where I am ready to select/install the sub-panel for my detached shop. I was looking at the Square D QO panel at Lowes/HD, the local electrical supply house caries GE and Cutler Hammer. Of these three, which one would you recommend and why.

Thanks,

 

[oleguy]

QO is the best.next cutler-hammer next then ge.

 

[Grumpy365]

QO is the best.next cutler-hammer next then ge.

X2
Why? Because Square D kicks ***.

 

[mrb]

id go with QO as well. GE *****, C-H is decent. Its also nice to be able to grab a breaker at lowes or HD on a weekend and not have to go to a supplyhouse for it. Probably cheaper too.

 

[ixlr8]

I have done more research based on your responses, it seems to be almost unanimous, SD QO is the best of this group. Which makes me ask... what makes the SD QO so much better that it is everybody's top pick??

 

[sberry]

They have a visable trip indicator on the breaker. I might be inclined to get what matched my house even. If I was twisted to install a service for a pal on home garage I like Homeline anymore, all 3 box stores carry it, breakers are cheap, go crazy.

 

[ixlr8]

They have a visable trip indicator on the breaker. I might be inclined to get what matched my house even. If I was twisted to install a service for a pal on home garage I like Homeline anymore, all 3 box stores carry it, breakers are cheap, go crazy.

I have a FPS panel in my home which is going to get replaced in the next 6 months as I can't find breakers for it in my area. It will get replaced with same brand that I put in the shop.

 

[MrMark]

The hardware and busses in the Square D seem to be higher quality than other offerings I have seen.

 

[mrb]

if you have the $, i like the NQ panelboards 1000% better than qo loadcenters....

 

[ixlr8]

if you have the $, i like the NQ panelboards 1000% better than qo loadcenters....

I have not found any NQ panels around here.. what about them do you like so much better?
I don't mind spending the money if there is a good reason. Nearest supplier of Square D products, besides Slows/HD is 40 miles away.

 

[mrb]

I have not found any NQ panels around here.. what about them do you like so much better?
I don't mind spending the money if there is a good reason. Nearest supplier of Square D products, besides Slows/HD is 40 miles away.

larger can = more wiring space, the covers are alot thicker with a lockable door latch and are completely flat. They take bolt in (QOB) breakers =no burned buss stabs, or regular QO breakers.

http://static.schneider-electric.us...nce Branch-Circuit Panelboards/1640CT0801.pdf

theyre $ though, maybe $300 or $400 as opposed to $75 or $100 for a QO

 

[ixlr8]

mrb- That is a serious breaker box, I can see why you like them, although 90% of the options listed I have no idea what they are to know if I need to order them or not.
The QO load center I am looking at is a 100 amp panel kit, 32 circuits including main breaker and 6- 20amp breakers for $131.00. For my shop... I think this is the way I will go.. but when I upgrade the house, I will give the NQ box serious consideration.

Thanks,

 

[mrb]

mrb- That is a serious breaker box, I can see why you like them, although 90% of the options listed I have no idea what they are to know if I need to order them or not.
The QO load center I am looking at is a 100 amp panel kit, 32 circuits including main breaker and 6- 20amp breakers for $131.00. For my shop... I think this is the way I will go.. but when I upgrade the house, I will give the NQ box serious consideration.

Thanks,

I dont know if I would use a NQ in the house, its a commercial panel and would come across as 'wierd' to future home inspectors and buyers.

 

[ishiboo]

QO is the "gold standard" in commonly available boxes. You can't go wrong As mrb mentioned, they have visible trip indicators, and they're typically higher quality breakers which perform well. QO have been out a long time and they're available everywhere.

I do use the Homeline from time to time, they are good as well for an economy box. Breakers are cheaper than the QO. I have had several Homeline breakers fail in investment properties, and haven't personally seen ANY QO failures.

My new property has 3 QO boxes and one CH box (CH series as well?), the CH is quite rusty, and the wire routing doesn't seem to be that great... though to be fair, it's a mess.

 

[ishiboo]

mrb- That is a serious breaker box, I can see why you like them, although 90% of the options listed I have no idea what they are to know if I need to order them or not.
The QO load center I am looking at is a 100 amp panel kit, 32 circuits including main breaker and 6- 20amp breakers for $131.00. For my shop... I think this is the way I will go.. but when I upgrade the house, I will give the NQ box serious consideration.

Thanks,

Don't bother unless you need the space/amperage. For a residential application there is little reason to go with a NQ. You'll be quite happy with the QO

 

[cowboyjosh]

We pretty much install Square D exclusively and every once in awhile we do a little bit with Eaton BR. Some builders both custom and tract spec the Homeline or BR for cost savings; but I prefer QO. IMO QO is indeed as their slogan states "worlds finest". We install QO in applications from residential to fitness centers (like 24 Hour Fitness, Lifetime Fitness), retail shopping centers, schools, medical offices, etc.

 

[sberry]

I have QO, I upgrade my whole place and thats what I went to at the time and stuck with it. I threw out A GE or 2, couple of Federals, they were actually working fine but as I moved things made changes, remodel then they went partly due to maintenance effort, I wanted new and I wanted standardization so I am willing to spend up front to get it.
I am not an electrical but done a fair amount of work over last 30 yrs. Installing modern equipment, some various brands but in home/small shop residential (have seen neglected, abused,damaged) but in all reality can recall one or 2 failed breakers, neither one overloaded, actually had intermittent use, just broke one pole internal and didn't work. They were on equipment on my own property out of say 300 breakers in service.
95% loads are off or minimally loaded, or intermittent, ain't gonna matter what brand, most of the stuff on the market is very good, my neighbor went up to the yard and bought a BR Westing house POS works fine, worked fine for last 20 yrs, its a main that feeds a garage too that has about peak intermittent of 50A twice a month.
But of friends and neighbors that I helped never had a call back because a panel failed, breaker, or overloaded service to a home garage shop type thing.

 

[sberry]

Home garage,, barring specialized cases, say kiln, hot tub, etc are barley even demand factors for a common garage. Even welding anymore, guys with 211 class machines. 20A. Even compressing air and some lights on you would have to work like a sled dog to draw 50. Arc on the welder and air comp running. Both intermittent.

 

[-JP]

First thing to be aware of is the 2 distinct areas of application for distribution equipment; residential and commercial. Most guys on this board are concerned with residential applications for their home and/or garage.

With that outlook, the Square-D QO panelboard is the best product in my opinion. The Homeline product they sell is really a low cost economy grade product offered to compete with the price point of cutler hammer. Talk to any of the Square-D factory reps (not the distributors) and they will all groan with some level of embarrassment. Everything about the Homeline product quality is at the lowest level possible. Spend a few more bucks and get the QO product and you will never regret it. The NQ panelboard is really overkill for residential application.

While the panelboard enclosure and bus bar quality are somewhat of an issue to consider, circuit breakers are really the big difference in product quality between the big 3 manufacturers. After all, circuit protection is the primary purpose of the panelboard. The red flag on the Square-D breaker is a nice feature but it is still just as easy to see if a breaker has tripped on any of the other manufacturer's product. The performance of the device is where the men are separated from the boys. The quality of the interior components of the Square-D product is really evident when you look inside. Performance testing is another area Square-D excels at their accuracy in circuit protection. Cutler hammer is a joke when it comes to circuit protection on their low voltage products. I have seen a cutler hammer 20A breaker hold 30 amperes for almost 10 seconds before it finally tripped. The same breaker just sat there with 23 amperes and never did trip! Square-D 20A breakers tested all tripped at approximately 19.8 amps.

The cutler hammer product line is the lowest quality product available. I would not use it if someone offered it to me for free. My electrical system is too important to risk it on such an inferior product. I will say the only thing cutler hammer makes of a decent quality is their medium voltage equipment but that is only because it is really just the old original product designed by Westinghouse prior to cutler hammer buying the division and screwing up a good thing.

OK, I am starting to rant. I will give it a rest.

JP

 

[ixlr8]

With all the feedback I have gotten here, and other research I have done, I am going to HomeCheapo for a 100A 32 circuit SD QO panel. When it is time to replace the FPE panel in the house... it is getting a SD QO 200A 40 circuit panel. HomeCheapo wants $131 for the 100A panel, w/main breaker and 6-20A breakers. The only electrical outlet place in town wants $162 for the 100A QO panel w/main breaker and ground buss, this is their contractor price!!??

 

[Greatbear]

I use nothing but QO panels/breakers.

 

[cowboyjosh]

Wow, did a rep from CH piss in your sand box or what? I agree, I do not like their products even though we are forced to install them sometimes; however I see many of home, especially in the midwest that have CH panels that are 20-30 years old. A couple years ago we wired a million dollar home for another builder and he spec'd Eaton BR; its a beautiful home, and built like a frickin tank. My guys pissed and moaned the entire job that he went cheap on the panels, but went nuts on granite, wood work, appliances, etc.

Im a Square D QO guy, if I were to buy a brand new house and it had anything other then QO, the panels would get changed out.

GE panels and breakers are also notorious for the breakers not tripping. I always remember what a mentor told me once "you can't spell garbaGE, without GE". I could tell a couple stories of GE breakers not tripping, but I'll save that for another time, as Im plum tuckered out and heading for bed.

First thing to be aware of is the 2 distinct areas of application for distribution equipment; residential and commercial. Most guys on this board are concerned with residential applications for their home and/or garage.

With that outlook, the Square-D QO panelboard is the best product in my opinion. The Homeline product they sell is really a low cost economy grade product offered to compete with the price point of cutler hammer. Talk to any of the Square-D factory reps (not the distributors) and they will all groan with some level of embarrassment. Everything about the Homeline product quality is at the lowest level possible. Spend a few more bucks and get the QO product and you will never regret it. The NQ panelboard is really overkill for residential application.

While the panelboard enclosure and bus bar quality are somewhat of an issue to consider, circuit breakers are really the big difference in product quality between the big 3 manufacturers. After all, circuit protection is the primary purpose of the panelboard. The red flag on the Square-D breaker is a nice feature but it is still just as easy to see if a breaker has tripped on any of the other manufacturer's product. The performance of the device is where the men are separated from the boys. The quality of the interior components of the Square-D product is really evident when you look inside. Performance testing is another area Square-D excels at their accuracy in circuit protection. Cutler hammer is a joke when it comes to circuit protection on their low voltage products. I have seen a cutler hammer 20A breaker hold 30 amperes for almost 10 seconds before it finally tripped. The same breaker just sat there with 23 amperes and never did trip! Square-D 20A breakers tested all tripped at approximately 19.8 amps.

The cutler hammer product line is the lowest quality product available. I would not use it if someone offered it to me for free. My electrical system is too important to risk it on such an inferior product. I will say the only thing cutler hammer makes of a decent quality is their medium voltage equipment but that is only because it is really just the old original product designed by Westinghouse prior to cutler hammer buying the division and screwing up a good thing.

OK, I am starting to rant. I will give it a rest.

JP

 

[Norcal]

I dispise the C-H BR line, (Formerly Bryant/Westinghouse), GE , & the SQ D HOMOline does not rank much higher, I do like the C-H type CH "Classic" loadcenter as it's still the last decent panel on the market, as the QO panel is a overpriced elcheapo panel unlike the way they used to be...

 

[Greatbear]

...the SQ D HOMOline...

Was that really necessary?

 

[MrMark]

Funny thing on pricing is that Home Depot beats the supply houses on some things but not others. It really is hit and miss. This is even with the Supply House's best pricing. Wire is one thing that the Supply House always has a better price on. I prefer to shop at the Supply House just because they have always treated me well and I get top notch advice and service. That is worth paying a little more for me. Home Depot is great too, though.

 

[jvitez]

Most popular panels here seem to be Siemens. Federal Pioneer are the economy choice, which used to be made here in Canada, so weren't as bad the US made ones that gave them such a bad rap. Siemens breakers and C-H BR breakers are the same. Is the Siemens panelboard itself any better or worse than C-H?

 

[Norcal]

Most popular panels here seem to be Siemens. Federal Pioneer are the economy choice, which used to be made here in Canada, so weren't as bad the US made ones that gave them such a bad rap. Siemens breakers and C-H BR breakers are the same. Is the Siemens panelboard itself any better or worse than C-H?

Siemens outdoor & 3 phase loadcenters are standard as copper bus, indoor is a option, for that style of breaker I prefer Siemens, always have....

 

[cowboyjosh]

Were in the process of bidding on a new public school where they have speced either Siemens, GE, or Eaton, panels and breakers, they want quotes on all 3 and the Board of Education, will of course select the cheapest. I understand that they are pinching pennies on this building, and i told the Architect i am a advocate of Square D QO, he agrees SQD QO is top of the line, but the school is only getting so much funding for this building an they are on a Eaton budget. Its a shame when they are cutting cost on something as important, and something like electric panels that will likely be expected to last the life of the building or at least 50 years.

 

[-JP]

Cowboyjosh,

Never heard of a client getting upset with a bidder providing a voluntary alternate. If your project is large enough and the local market can justify, the local Square-D rep who issues quotations can offer a competitive price and might just come close to the low ball price that CH and Siemens will quote.

A voluntary alternate with close pricing along with some dialog to explain the long term benefits of a superior product just might convince them to go your way.

JP