Most of the Japan vehicle parts are designed, built and assembled in Japan then shipped here for assembly. Sure they build assembly plants here to boost sales and help their US car owners to sleep better at night. But do really think there is any loyality to their American workers? Come on, when hard times come their US plants will be the very fist to be closed up. The Chinese are at the level in the US that Japan was when its products first arrived here, but it won't take them as long to surpass the level of ****** America that Japan has.
Another China rant...
- Thread starter eschoendorff
- Start date
daveinwestland
Banned
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2006
- Messages
- 56
Not true.Rickster; said:
Can't say for sure, but I can say this concerning "loyalty"...they are "LOYAL" to the almighty Dollar and they are opening new plants on a monthly basis HERE in the U.S. employing AMERICANS. Name the last NEW plant the BIG THREE opened here in the U.S.
Oh, you mean like GM, Ford and the Chrysler plants shutting down because of "hard times" ?? When hard times come, why does it matter the nationality of the owners? If a business isn't profitable then it is going to close. Period.
Big difference. China is a Socialistic government. Business won't be allowed leave the Chinese mainland because when it does the government loses control over it.
Japan has been a democracy since the end of WWII.
kythri
Well-known member
And read the comments by the illiterate morons on the IMDB page for a free lobotomy...
Seriously, though - that film is a bunch of ****.
Wal-Mart has one responsibility - to their shareholders. If they've found a busines model that works, then they're doing their job.
Most of the people that ***** and moan about Wal-Mart don't know a damned thing about it.
They pay their employees poorly? I know an 18-year-old kid (my best friend's nephew) who got a job there, making $9.50/hr stocking shelves. Oregon's minimum wage is $7.80/hr, and Wal-Mart WILLINGLY pays him nearly $2/hr over the mandated minimum. And before you claim that $9.50/hr is a crappy wage, keep in mind - you're not supposed to raise a family off of Wal-Mart/McDonald's/etc. If you're an irresponsible ***** who can't stop popping out kids, you get what you deserve. If the only job you can hold down is Wal-Mart, well, you've made your bed. It's not Wal-Mart's responsibility to pay you $50K/year to bag groceries and move boxes.
They don't give you enough hours to earn benefits? Bullshat. That same 18-year-old kid was staffed at 40+ hours/week. His schedule only got reduced when he started screwing off, calling in sick so he could party/sleep off a hangover, or showing up late all the time. But guess what? Even with all his irresponsibility, they never fired him.
The benefits? I looked at his benefit package. It's not the world's greatest for spouse and dependents, but, again, it's not supposed to be! It covered him personally quite well, comparably to a LOT of other places.
So, really, what do you want from Wal-Mart? ANYONE that thinks Wal-Mart should provide jobs (other than perhaps management) that allow someone to support an entire family needs to get another hole drilled in their head, because they apparently did the first five wrong when they broke out the Black & Decker Home Trepanning Kit.
So-called "Mom & Pop" stores are a damned joke - they sell the exact same **** as Wal-Mart, only for a higher price, and if they happen to employ someone from outside their family, they're being hired for a part-time, minimum-wage job, with no benefits.
If you don't like Chinese products, BUY SOMETHING ELSE. The fact of the matter is, it's next to impossible to eliminate Asian-based products from your life. Rather than attempting to get Wal-Mart (and every single other business out there), you need to work on your legislators. They're the ones allowing China to bring it's unfair advantage here and take over our market.
kythri
Well-known member
Well, it's not the whole crowd, but, dang, I just get tired of seeing the Wal-Mart bashing.
The hilarious part is, most people who bash Wal-Mart will then go shop at K-Mart, Costco, Sears, etc.
Just about every place in this country sells the exact same origin of product as Wal-Mart does - Wal-Mart just does it cheaper.
In fact, if you want to get pissed at anybody, get pissed at places that mandate a dress code including button-down or polo shirts, slacks, and disallow tennis shoes.
I've worked jobs like that. I'm making minimum wage, but I have to go out and buy (comparatively) expensive clothes just to work there.
Wal-Mart? Jeans, t-shirts and sneaks. They provide a smock/vest. You wear what you own, you don't have to go out and buy it.
But hey, I'll say this - there's one thing that Wal-Mart has done that pisses me off.
Here in Lebanon, OR, they built a Wal-Mart about 10 years ago. About 2-3 years ago, Wal-Mart decided that the existing store was too small, so they sold the building, and built a Super Wal-Mart about a half-mile away.
Now, this isn't a bad thing in and of itself - the new store is clean, nicely organized, and has a lot more **** to buy. The old one had quickly degraded into the worst possible stereotype of white trash dirt mall you can imagine.
No, the bad part was, one of the last 5 drive-in theatres in Oregon was located where the new Super Wal-Mart is.
Of course, my anger towards Wal-Mart here is completely displaced - the real blame lies on the owners of the drive-in, who let it deteriorate until it became far too costly to repair and upgrade. As such, they put the property on the market, and Wal-Mart snapped it up.
Logically, I can't blame Wal-Mart for this, but every time I drive by, I remember the drive-in, and lament it's loss (especially when I consider that the nearest drive-in is about 50 miles away).
You know - that would be a great premise for an episode of the show "30 Days" (Morgan Spurlock - Super Size Me) - live an entirely "Made In the USA" life for 30 days. No products made outside of the country. No products made from parts made outside the country. Everything used, consumed, etc. has to be Made in the USA.
I don't think it can be done, personally.
Of course, on the other hand, I don't think that the politics managing the show would allow such a clearly discriminatory, jingoistic, hate-spewing non-PC concept such as that to air...
The hilarious part is, most people who bash Wal-Mart will then go shop at K-Mart, Costco, Sears, etc.
Just about every place in this country sells the exact same origin of product as Wal-Mart does - Wal-Mart just does it cheaper.
In fact, if you want to get pissed at anybody, get pissed at places that mandate a dress code including button-down or polo shirts, slacks, and disallow tennis shoes.
I've worked jobs like that. I'm making minimum wage, but I have to go out and buy (comparatively) expensive clothes just to work there.
Wal-Mart? Jeans, t-shirts and sneaks. They provide a smock/vest. You wear what you own, you don't have to go out and buy it.
But hey, I'll say this - there's one thing that Wal-Mart has done that pisses me off.
Here in Lebanon, OR, they built a Wal-Mart about 10 years ago. About 2-3 years ago, Wal-Mart decided that the existing store was too small, so they sold the building, and built a Super Wal-Mart about a half-mile away.
Now, this isn't a bad thing in and of itself - the new store is clean, nicely organized, and has a lot more **** to buy. The old one had quickly degraded into the worst possible stereotype of white trash dirt mall you can imagine.
No, the bad part was, one of the last 5 drive-in theatres in Oregon was located where the new Super Wal-Mart is.
Of course, my anger towards Wal-Mart here is completely displaced - the real blame lies on the owners of the drive-in, who let it deteriorate until it became far too costly to repair and upgrade. As such, they put the property on the market, and Wal-Mart snapped it up.
Logically, I can't blame Wal-Mart for this, but every time I drive by, I remember the drive-in, and lament it's loss (especially when I consider that the nearest drive-in is about 50 miles away).
You know - that would be a great premise for an episode of the show "30 Days" (Morgan Spurlock - Super Size Me) - live an entirely "Made In the USA" life for 30 days. No products made outside of the country. No products made from parts made outside the country. Everything used, consumed, etc. has to be Made in the USA.
I don't think it can be done, personally.
Of course, on the other hand, I don't think that the politics managing the show would allow such a clearly discriminatory, jingoistic, hate-spewing non-PC concept such as that to air...
Economic beyond 101
Why for the producer, it is bad to not let your currency float or limit any imports from those who are buying from them. The outcome is buying yourself a 10 year depression.
15-20 years ago most Asian producers (China was not yet a player) tied their currency to the US dollar, it seemed so logical. It was easy to price and sell good, and you had a market advantage. The bad part is the countries you sell to will have a devaluation in their currency, one that will eventually bring you to the point where the cost of production will not cover all your costs. You take in money at an old more value rate and have to convert it at lower rates. Example you sell at a rate that will give you $100, but can only exchange the $100 for $60 on the world market. Your cost is $57. A great margin in the beginning, but a hidden problem.
I have been in school multiple times, when doing my engineering masters I took a number of international business courses. My mentor teaching the class pointed at students from these countries stating they would go into a multiple year recession or depression do to the above. He also stated to get out of it, they would let their currency float, build plants in the USA to prevent having to convert currency on the cost of production, and do more to encourage imports. The students answer was their government propaganda of the time, we have a planned economy unlike the US, this will not happen to us. The events of 1992 to 2003 in Asia proved he was right.
The plants in the US are how they survive. They were building them while cutting jobs in other areas of the world. The couple months it takes money to be converted can take a profit to a loss if the US dollar is devaluating. So you are better converting it during the time of production. The companies did not say they were cutting jobs, they had many areas with contract labor, they cancelled the contract labor and moved their employees into those jobs, vs laying them off. Thus a layoff without laying anyone they directly employed off.
So that country is faced with raising prices (the students felt we would be so addicted to their brand we would not change and pay, guess again), very hard to do in the competitive US market, decreasing quality, lowering costs and or wages. The last of course unacceptable and can cause governments to fail.
Those students, today in their home country, live more by what they learned here from a professor they were sure was so wrong. The countries planning would save them, it did not. Chinese students I talk to today sound like the students from those other countries used to. They know about the other countries, but are so sure that their planning is so much superior, which from the outside looking in to me seems inferior to those other countries, that the inevitable will not happen to them.
So China has a huge problem, which will as it did with those other countries, will cause US imports to move somewhere else. So I am very fussy about what I buy from abroad when the playing field is not level, the factors above can turn good products to scrap from one shipment to the next. I flip everything I buy over, look where it was made, and analyze it based on the sticker. Then I ask what is the best value, not the lowest price. That has not failed me yet.
One of my issues of not buying China is political. The current hold on beef and other agricultural imports that could help our balance of trade. To a country that cannot keep antifreeze out of toothpaste and lead out of toys, one cow from Canada (imported before safety checks implemented, slaughtered after) years ago, tested at the point of slaughter and recalled is too unsafe and the reason for a multi-year ban on some US ag products.
The process I mentioned above that I follow started years before China became a player in the world economy.
Why for the producer, it is bad to not let your currency float or limit any imports from those who are buying from them. The outcome is buying yourself a 10 year depression.
15-20 years ago most Asian producers (China was not yet a player) tied their currency to the US dollar, it seemed so logical. It was easy to price and sell good, and you had a market advantage. The bad part is the countries you sell to will have a devaluation in their currency, one that will eventually bring you to the point where the cost of production will not cover all your costs. You take in money at an old more value rate and have to convert it at lower rates. Example you sell at a rate that will give you $100, but can only exchange the $100 for $60 on the world market. Your cost is $57. A great margin in the beginning, but a hidden problem.
I have been in school multiple times, when doing my engineering masters I took a number of international business courses. My mentor teaching the class pointed at students from these countries stating they would go into a multiple year recession or depression do to the above. He also stated to get out of it, they would let their currency float, build plants in the USA to prevent having to convert currency on the cost of production, and do more to encourage imports. The students answer was their government propaganda of the time, we have a planned economy unlike the US, this will not happen to us. The events of 1992 to 2003 in Asia proved he was right.
The plants in the US are how they survive. They were building them while cutting jobs in other areas of the world. The couple months it takes money to be converted can take a profit to a loss if the US dollar is devaluating. So you are better converting it during the time of production. The companies did not say they were cutting jobs, they had many areas with contract labor, they cancelled the contract labor and moved their employees into those jobs, vs laying them off. Thus a layoff without laying anyone they directly employed off.
So that country is faced with raising prices (the students felt we would be so addicted to their brand we would not change and pay, guess again), very hard to do in the competitive US market, decreasing quality, lowering costs and or wages. The last of course unacceptable and can cause governments to fail.
Those students, today in their home country, live more by what they learned here from a professor they were sure was so wrong. The countries planning would save them, it did not. Chinese students I talk to today sound like the students from those other countries used to. They know about the other countries, but are so sure that their planning is so much superior, which from the outside looking in to me seems inferior to those other countries, that the inevitable will not happen to them.
So China has a huge problem, which will as it did with those other countries, will cause US imports to move somewhere else. So I am very fussy about what I buy from abroad when the playing field is not level, the factors above can turn good products to scrap from one shipment to the next. I flip everything I buy over, look where it was made, and analyze it based on the sticker. Then I ask what is the best value, not the lowest price. That has not failed me yet.
One of my issues of not buying China is political. The current hold on beef and other agricultural imports that could help our balance of trade. To a country that cannot keep antifreeze out of toothpaste and lead out of toys, one cow from Canada (imported before safety checks implemented, slaughtered after) years ago, tested at the point of slaughter and recalled is too unsafe and the reason for a multi-year ban on some US ag products.
The process I mentioned above that I follow started years before China became a player in the world economy.
When purchasing products, it's not just about WHERE they're made, it's about WHO owns the company that makes them. You say Toyota makes many of their vehicles in the United States, well that's great. But when it comes down to it, where do the big bucks go? To Japan. When you buy a Chevrolet that's made in Canada, where do the big bucks go? To the United States. It's as simple as that. Look at the company's profits. The profits are after they pay their workers. All of those profits go back to where the company's headquarters are.
I'll buy a Canadian or Mexican made Chevrolet before I buy a U.S. made Toyota any day.
Besides, when it comes to the Mexican made U.S. vehicles, those Mexican workers just jump the border and spend their money here anyways, so it all works out.
I'll buy a Canadian or Mexican made Chevrolet before I buy a U.S. made Toyota any day.
Besides, when it comes to the Mexican made U.S. vehicles, those Mexican workers just jump the border and spend their money here anyways, so it all works out.
Coach James
Well-known member
Interesting discussion. Also good to see that a topic like this can be debated without cursing and name calling.
I don't like going to WalMart, not so much because of the company, but because it is so crowded. And another poster was right in that Wally sells the same things as our local True Value, just at lower prices. Why does someone take a job at WalMart if the pay and benefits are so bad? They take the job there because it is the best option they have. If there was a better job available, they would take it.
I hate buying Chinese anything, but in some cases I have to buy Chinese or buy nothing.
China is, in some ways, where America was at the turn of the century. Americans manufactured many things for low wages under bad working conditions. Companies moved to China because labor was way cheaper, governmental regulations were less, environmental regs were less etc. As China has starts to enact more environmental/labor regs, companies will start moving to other countries. Actually I understand some already have.
There is simply no way that an American manufacturing company can afford the cost of governmental compliance, environmental, and labor unions and remain competitive in a low margin business unless they have a niche like Channellock, Craftsman, Vaughan, SnapOn etc.
Also, teaching economics in school is not a solution to loss of domestic manufacturing. I've been teaching high school for twenty years and my opinion of school, public and private, gets lower every year. Teachers are pressured to teach general required courses at a low level so most students can pass. Meaning the course is worthless.
Also, most American students are too lazy to really study and especially to study something as dry as economics. My first generation foreign students work rings around my American students. Many have quite limited English but still make better grades because they work three times as hard.
So many American kids have so much and have it so easy that they aren't "hungry". They know they'll be taken care of and feel no urgency to work hard. When your "middle class" 17 year olds are driving $25,000 cars to school and the "poor" kids have cell phones, jewelry and $100 jackets/jerseys, it's nearly impossible to get them to learn economics or anything else.
At our Lowes, the Chine/Kobalt is slightly cheaper than Channellock, but not much. Plus the store has a big selection of Kobalt pliers but very limited Channellock and Klein. I would wager that Harbor Freight does more tool business than Wally World and Lowes put together.
I work with people that yap about the "greedy politicians" and "greedy CEO's" sending jobs overseas, then they spend their Saturday morning at HF buying tools made in China and India. When I ask them if they see any irony in that, the usual response is along the lines of "HF stuff is good enough and it's cheap."
I don't like going to WalMart, not so much because of the company, but because it is so crowded. And another poster was right in that Wally sells the same things as our local True Value, just at lower prices. Why does someone take a job at WalMart if the pay and benefits are so bad? They take the job there because it is the best option they have. If there was a better job available, they would take it.
I hate buying Chinese anything, but in some cases I have to buy Chinese or buy nothing.
China is, in some ways, where America was at the turn of the century. Americans manufactured many things for low wages under bad working conditions. Companies moved to China because labor was way cheaper, governmental regulations were less, environmental regs were less etc. As China has starts to enact more environmental/labor regs, companies will start moving to other countries. Actually I understand some already have.
There is simply no way that an American manufacturing company can afford the cost of governmental compliance, environmental, and labor unions and remain competitive in a low margin business unless they have a niche like Channellock, Craftsman, Vaughan, SnapOn etc.
Also, teaching economics in school is not a solution to loss of domestic manufacturing. I've been teaching high school for twenty years and my opinion of school, public and private, gets lower every year. Teachers are pressured to teach general required courses at a low level so most students can pass. Meaning the course is worthless.
Also, most American students are too lazy to really study and especially to study something as dry as economics. My first generation foreign students work rings around my American students. Many have quite limited English but still make better grades because they work three times as hard.
So many American kids have so much and have it so easy that they aren't "hungry". They know they'll be taken care of and feel no urgency to work hard. When your "middle class" 17 year olds are driving $25,000 cars to school and the "poor" kids have cell phones, jewelry and $100 jackets/jerseys, it's nearly impossible to get them to learn economics or anything else.
At our Lowes, the Chine/Kobalt is slightly cheaper than Channellock, but not much. Plus the store has a big selection of Kobalt pliers but very limited Channellock and Klein. I would wager that Harbor Freight does more tool business than Wally World and Lowes put together.
I work with people that yap about the "greedy politicians" and "greedy CEO's" sending jobs overseas, then they spend their Saturday morning at HF buying tools made in China and India. When I ask them if they see any irony in that, the usual response is along the lines of "HF stuff is good enough and it's cheap."
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OP
eschoendorff
Well-known member
Same here. The clientèle at Walmart creeps me out.
I am currently a teacher (instrumental music) and the **** that passes for effort in other classes does not translate into good performances (concerts) in my class. My biggest challenges with my students are: FOCUS (read: pay attention!) and QUALITY of work.
My point in posting this thread is that if something's going to be sourced from a country like China, than the price for that product should reflect this. The prices for Chinese/Indian/Taiwanese goods are coming very close to their American counterparts.
This may sound crazy, but based on costs of items beyond labor and other variables involved, I would not be surprised if we are not getting close, a few years from a point, that quality = quality that a number of the outsourced items will cost MORE than the items made here!
It was school shopping time and interestingly a number of items that were pure China the last two years moved back to the countries where the resources required to make them are this year. I some cases this included the USA.
It was school shopping time and interestingly a number of items that were pure China the last two years moved back to the countries where the resources required to make them are this year. I some cases this included the USA.
idoine in toronto
Well-known member
Chrysler signs China manufacturing deal
The Boston Globe
BEIJING --Chrysler Group signed a deal Wednesday with China's biggest automaker, Chery, to produce cars for export to the United States and elsewhere in the first attempt by a U.S. automaker to use China as a manufacturing base for world markets. The first cars will be exported within a year to Latin America or Eastern Europe, and models should reach the United States and Western Europe within 2 1/2 years, said Chrysler Chairman and CEO Tom LaSorda. "As of today, we're committed to building vehicles here for export," LaSorda said at a signing ceremony held at a Chinese government guesthouse. "We will combine Chrysler's research and technology and global...
More at http://article.wn.com/view/2007/07/...n=RegionSAmerica&template=worldnews/index.txt
The Boston Globe
BEIJING --Chrysler Group signed a deal Wednesday with China's biggest automaker, Chery, to produce cars for export to the United States and elsewhere in the first attempt by a U.S. automaker to use China as a manufacturing base for world markets. The first cars will be exported within a year to Latin America or Eastern Europe, and models should reach the United States and Western Europe within 2 1/2 years, said Chrysler Chairman and CEO Tom LaSorda. "As of today, we're committed to building vehicles here for export," LaSorda said at a signing ceremony held at a Chinese government guesthouse. "We will combine Chrysler's research and technology and global...
More at http://article.wn.com/view/2007/07/...n=RegionSAmerica&template=worldnews/index.txt