Another Garage /Shop Lighting question

[mrramsey]

So I am now trying to figure out a good lighting plan for my workshop. Its approximately 21x21x10. Currently just two fixtures like you would see in a typical garage.

I was thinking like (9) 4' 2 bulb fixtures. I would prefer to use LED's if the budget allows. Thoughts?

 

[bczygan]

Make that 20 fixtures and you'll be good.

My slightly less than 10x20 has 8.

Use daylight color.

Bill

 

[Jlbc212]

I have fifteen three bulb flourescent lights in my 36 x 28 garage. They provide plenty of light and I got all the fixtures for free. However, by far the best light i have is a Zebralight that i wear on top of my head. I have two rechargeable lithium batteries for it. The best thing about it is that it directs the light exactly where I'm looking. I can comfortably work in my garage without having all the flourescent lights on. The only issue i have with it is the battery will last only about three hours with the light on the brightest setting. i should buy a third battery.

 

[jav]

I'm not a lighting expert but I am finishing up my 25 x 42 garage after living with a 21 x 21 garage for many years with just 2 fixtures (like your used to). I think for you - just going to (4) 4' LED shop lights (4400 lumens each) will be a big improvement. 15 would be overkill (IMHO)? I'm starting with 8 in my 25 x 42 and will evaluate the need for more once I see how they look.

There's a link to a decent lighting calculator somewhere in one of the lighting threads and, I found a table with suggested "luminescence levels" for different activities on line. With 8 (4400 lumen) fixtures, my plan put me right in the middle of the range the table suggests. Many on here shoot for much higher light levels than the table suggests (perhaps rightfully so) but given where we came from (2 fixtures in a 21x21)... I think I'm going to be pretty happy with only 8 but if not- it's easy enough to add more fixtures (with the plug in ones)

Now- Which fixture to buy is proving a bit of a hassle. I can get the Lights of America units at my BJ's for about $38 each. I preferred the ones on the BEST LED light sticky on here, but one source has the fixtures but not the lamps. Another has the lamps and not the fixtures -so I'm trying to find the best solution from a cost, versatility, lead time & problem resolution stand point(s). I'll probably just go local even though I don't think the light will be as good as the suggested ones... but - these have pull strings shut-offs on each light and plus so it's easy to change configurations and, if I have a problem, I'm dealing with a single local vendor.

 

[mrramsey]

I'm not a lighting expert but I am finishing up my 25 x 42 garage after living with a 21 x 21 garage for many years with just 2 fixtures (like your used to). I think for you - just going to (4) 4' LED shop lights (4400 lumens each) will be a big improvement. 15 would be overkill (IMHO)? I'm starting with 8 in my 25 x 42 and will evaluate the need for more once I see how they look.

There's a link to a decent lighting calculator somewhere in one of the lighting threads and, I found a table with suggested "luminescence levels" for different activities on line. With 8 (4400 lumen) fixtures, my plan put me right in the middle of the range the table suggests. Many on here shoot for much higher light levels than the table suggests (perhaps rightfully so) but given where we came from (2 fixtures in a 21x21)... I think I'm going to be pretty happy with only 8 but if not- it's easy enough to add more fixtures (with the plug in ones)

Now- Which fixture to buy is proving a bit of a hassle. I can get the Lights of America units at my BJ's for about $38 each. I preferred the ones on the BEST LED light sticky on here, but one source has the fixtures but not the lamps. Another has the lamps and not the fixtures -so I'm trying to find the best solution from a cost, versatility, lead time & problem resolution stand point(s). I'll probably just go local even though I don't think the light will be as good as the suggested ones... but - these have pull strings shut-offs on each light and plus so it's easy to change configurations and, if I have a problem, I'm dealing with a single local vendor.

Good info. Thanks Jav.
I am shooting for 75 lumens per foot. Which is something like (9) 2 bulb fixtures with 2200 lumen bulbs.

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[jav]

I was shooting for around 50 lumens @ 30" from the floor. According to the calculator, we've been living with less than 25 lumens so 50 should be a treat!

 

[cybrdyke]

Good info. Thanks Jav.
I am shooting for 75 footcandles. Which is something like (9) 2 bulb fixtures with 2200 lumen bulbs.

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I was shooting for around 50 footcandles @ 30" from the floor. According to the calculator, we've been living with less than 25 footcandles so 50 should be a treat!

(fixed it for ya)

It's kinda becoming a pet peeve of mine, I guess.....

reminder: You cant add up the lumens of the lights and divide it by the square footage of the space to figure light levels. Doesn't work that way.

Good luck,
CD

 

[Shiftless]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

to that!

 

[bczygan]

I'm not a lighting expert but I am finishing up my 25 x 42 garage after living with a 21 x 21 garage for many years with just 2 fixtures (like your used to). I think for you - just going to (4) 4' LED shop lights (4400 lumens each) will be a big improvement. 15 would be overkill (IMHO)? I'm starting with 8 in my 25 x 42 and will evaluate the need for more once I see how they look.

There's a link to a decent lighting calculator somewhere in one of the lighting threads and, I found a table with suggested "luminescence levels" for different activities on line. With 8 (4400 lumen) fixtures, my plan put me right in the middle of the range the table suggests. Many on here shoot for much higher light levels than the table suggests (perhaps rightfully so) but given where we came from (2 fixtures in a 21x21)... I think I'm going to be pretty happy with only 8 but if not- it's easy enough to add more fixtures (with the plug in ones)

Now- Which fixture to buy is proving a bit of a hassle. I can get the Lights of America units at my BJ's for about $38 each. I preferred the ones on the BEST LED light sticky on here, but one source has the fixtures but not the lamps. Another has the lamps and not the fixtures -so I'm trying to find the best solution from a cost, versatility, lead time & problem resolution stand point(s). I'll probably just go local even though I don't think the light will be as good as the suggested ones... but - these have pull strings shut-offs on each light and plus so it's easy to change configurations and, if I have a problem, I'm dealing with a single local vendor.

Good info. Thanks Jav.
I am shooting for 75 lumens per foot. Which is something like (9) 2 bulb fixtures with 2200 lumen bulbs.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

You may both fall quite a bit short. As mentioned above, my 19 1/2x9 1/2 foot single car garage, with a 9' ceiling and white painted brick walls has 8 of the 4' 2 tube fixtures with white reflectors. They are hung at 8 1/2 feet and the bulbs put out 2850 lumens each.

I just measured the foot candles at 42" above the floor in the brightest part of the room at 50.

Now, 100FC is recommended for detail work. I've worked as a draftsman, and you need that at your workstation, but not for general illumination. So the 50FC I have is great. And since I use the 6500K bulbs, everything feels bright and fresh, not yellow like the soft white bulbs.

Your plans won't give you this level of light. But maybe you just need enough illumination to walk through the garage, and not enough for detailed work,

Mine is good enough for general work anywhere in the space. If I needed additional light for very fine work, I would add a light at that workstation.

Here's a photo:

Bill

 

[mrramsey]

(fixed it for ya)

It's kinda becoming a pet peeve of mine, I guess.....

reminder: You cant add up the lumens of the lights and divide it by the square footage of the space to figure light levels. Doesn't work that way.

Good luck,
CD

Cybrdyke, I stand corrected. I used a formula from a lighting engineer that was as follows:
Info needed:
Square footage of the shop LxW
The Lumens per Fixture
Coefficient of usage (.65)
Light Loss Factor (.75)

SF x Footcandles required = Minimum lumens needed

Minimum lumens needed x 1.4 = Additional lumens required to obtain

Minimum Lumens Needed + Additional Required = Total Lumens

Total Lumens / Lumens per fixture = Number of fixtures

HEHE and I already see my mistake in my plan.

I will need about 14 fixtures to obtain 75 footcandles per SF @ 5700 lumens per fixture.

This is probably overkill for what I actually would actually need since I do have a good amount of natural light as well as task lighting.

 

[cybrdyke]

Cybrdyke, I stand corrected. I used a formula from a lighting engineer that was as follows:
Info needed:
Square footage of the shop LxW
The Lumens per Fixture
Coefficient of usage (.65)
Light Loss Factor (.75)

SF x Footcandles required = Minimum lumens needed

Minimum lumens needed x 1.4 = Additional lumens required to obtain

Minimum Lumens Needed + Additional Required = Total Lumens

Total Lumens / Lumens per fixture = Number of fixtures

HEHE and I already see my mistake in my plan.

I will need about 14 fixtures to obtain 75 footcandles per SF @ 5700 lumens per fixture.

This is probably overkill for what I actually would actually need since I do have a good amount of natural light as well as task lighting.

All of the above is still an attempt to divide square footage by lumens of a light source to determine foot candles. It doesn't work. Sorry to tell you that. No disrespect to the engineer.

Take a 1 foot by 1 foot space. (1 square foot). Now put a 100 lumen light bulb in the ceiling. Would you say that's 100 lumens per square foot?

Now raise the walls of that space by (hmm....pick a ridiculous number....) 100 feet. You still have a space that's 1 square foot, and you still have a 100 lumen bulb, although now it's 10 stories high. Do you still have the same amount of light on the floor? Nope.

Now, bring those walls back down to normal height again. But change the 100 lumen bulb to a spot light. It's still 100 lumens per square foot. Now you have a bright spot on the floor, but the rest of the floor is dark.

Now, change that bulb to an uplight and bounce the light off the ceiling. Do you still have 100 lumens per square foot? Yep. Do you still have the same amount of light on the floor? Nope.

I can go on, but you get the point.

The amount of lumens produced by a light source cant be used to determine foot candles in a space because you dont have any idea where all that light is going. It's bouncing all over the place. 50% off the ceiling, 80% off the walls, 20% off the floor (ymmv). Hopefully, some of it goes where it's wanted/needed. That's the job of the fixture engineer. The spacing and placement is the job of the lighting designer.

Of course, you can guesstimate it. To me, 14 fixtures that are 5700 lumens each sounds like too much in a 21x21. What you need to do to be sure is to have someone do a layout for you. How 'bout the person that is selling you those fixtures? He/she should know all about the photometrics and utilization of their own fixture.

Hope that wasn't rant-ish. Just tryin' to help....
CD

 

[mrramsey]

All of the above is still an attempt to divide square footage by lumens of a light source to determine foot candles. It doesn't work. Sorry to tell you that. No disrespect to the engineer.

Take a 1 foot by 1 foot space. (1 square foot). Now put a 100 lumen light bulb in the ceiling. Would you say that's 100 lumens per square foot?

Now raise the walls of that space by (hmm....pick a ridiculous number....) 100 feet. You still have a space that's 1 square foot, and you still have a 100 lumen bulb, although now it's 10 stories high. Do you still have the same amount of light on the floor? Nope.

Now, bring those walls back down to normal height again. But change the 100 lumen bulb to a spot light. It's still 100 lumens per square foot. Now you have a bright spot on the floor, but the rest of the floor is dark.

Now, change that bulb to an uplight and bounce the light off the ceiling. Do you still have 100 lumens per square foot? Yep. Do you still have the same amount of light on the floor? Nope.

I can go on, but you get the point.

The amount of lumens produced by a light source cant be used to determine foot candles in a space because you dont have any idea where all that light is going. It's bouncing all over the place. 50% off the ceiling, 80% off the walls, 20% off the floor (ymmv). Hopefully, some of it goes where it's wanted/needed. That's the job of the fixture engineer. The spacing and placement is the job of the lighting designer.

Of course, you can guesstimate it. To me, 14 fixtures that are 5700 lumens each sounds like too much in a 21x21. What you need to do to be sure is to have someone do a layout for you. How 'bout the person that is selling you those fixtures? He/she should know all about the photometrics and utilization of their own fixture.

Hope that wasn't rant-ish. Just tryin' to help....
CD

All good I do not know the engineer. Even he indicated that the height of the ceiling was not in there and it was more of a starting point. I guess I look at it like any number of fixtures greater that the two I have is an improvement.

I will likely just do 5 or 6 spaced out over the actual working area of my shop floor. I also have 2 large windows that provide good natural light. There is a 3.5' wide walkway on the left from the exterior door to the house that I will add a couple of small lights on a motion sensor to just for visibility when entering the garage at night.

 

[cybrdyke]

6 should do it, especially if they're 5700 lumens each. Which fixture are you looking at?
CD

 

[bczygan]

Real world never matches these calculators.

 

[mrramsey]

6 should do it, especially if they're 5700 lumens each. Which fixture are you looking at?
CD

Just some typical 2 bulb t-8 strip light fixtures from Lowe's with SYLVANIA 32-Watt 6,500K bulbs. I'd do LED but cant seem to find any good high lumen tubes that don't require me to purchase a minimum qty of 30 lol.

I am open to suggestions though. Trying to watch the budget to some degree. The heating estimates I am getting are ridiculous.

 

[jav]

(fixed it for ya)

It's kinda becoming a pet peeve of mine, I guess.....

reminder: You cant add up the lumens of the lights and divide it by the square footage of the space to figure light levels. Doesn't work that way.

Good luck,
CD

Thank you for that Cybrdyke AND for taking the time with the detailed posts!

As far as what foot candles to shoot for, having read so many opinions of what "right" is, I considered several things. 1) what I had in my old shop (estimated), 2) the opinions posted here, and 3) the document in this link:

http://www.bristolite.com/interfaces/media/Footcandle Recommendations by Guth.pdf

I also relied on this calculator (also linked form this forum):

http://www.visual-3d.com/tools/interior/default.aspx?id=14782

Just to quantify these numbers in a way I could relate to, I entered my old old garage layout into the calculator to estimate what I had for foot candles before. My best guess is around 15- 25 (not sure exactly which bulbs were in my old fixtures). I knew that wasn't enough.

Using the first linked table - I figure my tasks/lighting requirements were closest to: industrial machine shop, repair garage, hand painting which put me around category"D" (20-30-50FC) or "E" (50-75-100FC)... which seemed like a HUGE range (20-100FC). So figuring I had somewhere around 15-25FC before, 50FC seemed like a decent upgrade?

I then used that lighting calculator to get a rough layout and fixture count. The problem is my garage isn't a rectangular box (like in the calculator)- there's stairs, closets and a beam hanging 12" down from the ceiling right down the middle- the long way and a 16' tall section where my lift will go. I'm sure the right thing would be to get a lighting designer but when you're pressed for time and money AND you yourself aren't sure what the "right" amount of light is... you do your best with the tools you have. This forum being one of my favorite tools!

 

[cybrdyke]

Just some typical 2 bulb t-8 strip light fixtures from Lowe's with SYLVANIA 32-Watt 6,500K bulbs. I'd do LED but cant seem to find any good high lumen tubes that don't require me to purchase a minimum qty of 30 lol.

I am open to suggestions though. Trying to watch the budget to some degree. The heating estimates I am getting are ridiculous.

So, about those lumens....

Those tubes are "rated" at 2850 lumens (x2 = 5700). But you wont get that out of them. First, the ballast in there is only an 88% ballast, which is standard. 5700 x .88 = 5016. Strip fixtures, mounted on a ceiling will only deliver about 70% of the lumens. 5016 x .70 = 3511 total delivered lumens per fixture.

So, knowing that you'll get 3511 lumens, you might consider getting a few extra of those fixtures.

If you're at the orange big box store, you can look at the LED tubes from Philips that are there. They're under $10. 17 watts each. 2000 lumens including the ballast factor, and all lumens delivered, so...4000 total delivered lumens per fixture.
CD

 

[mrramsey]

So, about those lumens....

Those tubes are "rated" at 2850 lumens (x2 = 5700). But you wont get that out of them. First, the ballast in there is only an 88% ballast, which is standard. 5700 x .88 = 5016. Strip fixtures, mounted on a ceiling will only deliver about 70% of the lumens. 5016 x .70 = 3511 total delivered lumens per fixture.

So, knowing that you'll get 3511 lumens, you might consider getting a few extra of those fixtures.

If you're at the orange big box store, you can look at the LED tubes from Philips that are there. They're under $10. 17 watts each. 2000 lumens including the ballast factor, and all lumens delivered, so...4000 total delivered lumens per fixture.
CD

Thanks for the additional info. I will go check those out.

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[bczygan]

If you're going to Lowes, do this.

Order online for in store pick up, and use a coupon code for at least 10% off.

Bill

 

[Redwolf947]

In my 22'x22'x11' garage I'm running 16 T8 fixtures 2 bulbs per. Configured like..

View media item 60328
I dont recall the lumans but i think it is 4800 ish. Plenty bright..

 

[bczygan]

In my 22'x22'x11' garage I'm running 16 T8 fixtures 2 bulbs per. Configured like..

View media item 60328
I dont recall the lumans but i think it is 4800 ish. Plenty bright..

That's more like what the OP may eventually want to do.

Bill

 

[1940_dodge]

I have 4 Utilitech 48" LED fixtures in my garage and they work perfectly.


http://www.lowes.com/pd/Utilitech-Pro-Wrap-Shop-Light-Common-4-ft-Actual-5-932-in-x-48-49-in/4480261