Another "how do i get power to my pole barn" thread

[cyberguypr]

Yes, another one of those. Long story short I built a new pole barn and looking to figure out how to get power to it, it is 150ft away from the house. Current situation is 200 AMP service to the house. The first building (garage) has the bigger subpanel. The second building (barn) has the 2nd panel pictured below which I assume is daisy-chained from the first subpanel in the garage.

I was hoping to be able to do 100 amp in the pole barn, but not sure If i can take that from the house. I am already in talks with the local power company to price out a second service or perhaps upgrading the meter base to 320 amps if that is an option. They are taking their sweet time so in the meanwhile I want to see what comments/ideas the experts here have.

Main panel:





Sub panel 1:


Sub panel 2:

 

[mm08822]

Both sub panels are wired wrong. Need grd seperated from neutral.

You would have to replace the feeders between mp to sp1 and also from sp1 to sp2 if you really want/need 100a at sp3 (pole barn).

 

[wyliesdiesels]

When were these sub installed? If after 2008, theyre wrong. Cant have a 3-wire feeder

Looks like the feeder is URD which is wrong wire

Also, you only have 50a going to garage and 40a going to the barn and i doubt either feeder is large enough for 100a

Panels might not be rated for 100a either.

As far as whether your service is large enough, you’d have to do a load calc. No way for anyone to tell otherwise

Another point, how did u come up with needing 100a in the barn?

EDIT: looks like both panels are same model and i can read the label on the second panel which says 100a. regardless, they are too small for my liking

 

[PCustoms]

@cyberguypr edit: I see the subs are in 2 separate outbuildings.

Seems they may need some work...

How did you come up with 100A for the barn? Very high estimate without a load calc.

 

[mm08822]

For certain the house panel needs a load calc. The other 2 existing probably not based on current apparent loading. However, the future of all 3 existing buildings should be considered. EV chargers? What loads could be simultaneous vs. intermittent/random?

What are the existing conduit sizes? How easily can old conductors be pulled out if in conduit all the way?

What about a new direct feeder to pole barn and leave existing feeders in place, just properly terminated?

Put in bigger than 6/12 panel.

 

[Codyboy]

Yeah I would look into a 320.

But what the heck is going on here? , may be the angle of the pic idk.
That double 30 has two wire sizes into it. Looks like an 8 or 6 and a 12 and the double 15 has the other 8 or 6 and a 12.

 

[Codyboy]

When were these sub installed? If after 2008, theyre wrong. Cant have a 3-wire feeder

Looks like the feeder is URD which is wrong wire

Also, you only have 50a going to garage and 40a going to the barn and i doubt either feeder is large enough for 100a

Panels might not be rated for 100a either.

As far as whether your service is large enough, you’d have to do a load calc. No way for anyone to tell otherwise

Another point, how did u come up with needing 100a in the barn?

EDIT: looks like both panels are same model and i can read the label on the second panel which says 100a. regardless, they are too small for my liking

Just curious , why would urd wire be the wrong wire?
What would be the correct wire if it left the panel going to the sub and it was direct buried?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Just curious , why would urd wire be the wrong wire?
What would be the correct wire if it left the panel going to the sub and it was direct buried?

URD if not dual rated w/ RHH or RHW, is not rated for use inside a building.

 

[mm08822]

not looking good......article 338.12 B1

 

[Toolmanjim]

Up it to 200 amp for the pole barn you will at some time be using a 220 welder.

 

[PCustoms]

Up it to 200 amp for the pole barn you will at some time be using a 220 welder.

What?

There's no logical reason to immediately link 200A service to a 220v welder...

OP needs to do a load calc for his new shop. Period.

 

[mm08822]

What?

There's no logical reason to immediately link 200A service to a 220v welder...

OP needs to do a load calc for his new shop. Period.

And the house to ensure a 200a service can provide for both loads simultaneously.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Up it to 200 amp for the pole barn you will at some time be using a 220 welder.

what?

 

[PCustoms]

And the house to ensure a 200a service can provide for both loads simultaneously.

Technically....

Not to get too sidetracked here, but I keep hearing about it the new energy code requirements in VT, one of them is tied to the electric code in that EV charging capability must be considered.

I haven't looked too far into it, but I've got to imagine it's driving costs sky high with the "what if" or "nice to have" requirements. If I build my planned shop, I believe per the code I would theoretically need 4 EVSE chargers.

 

[mm08822]

Technically....

Not to get too sidetracked here, but I keep hearing about it the new energy code requirements in VT, one of them is tied to the electric code in that EV charging capability must be considered.

I haven't looked too far into it, but I've got to imagine it's driving costs sky high with the "what if" or "nice to have" requirements. If I build my planned shop, I believe per the code I would theoretically need 4 EVSE chargers.

I guess you need to understand if an overhead door (that can fit a vehicle through) automatically defines that as a garage bay. A shop/shed/pole barn/bla bla, isn't a vehicle storage area for everyone. Might be easier to defend if the house contains the "garage". Then of course not everything will be electric. How many farmers are going to sell ole betsy for an etractor?

A 4 bay garage could possibly be load rationalized as 1 EVSE even there are 4 EVSEs. Software interlocks between controllers is in play and considered part of load management.

Dig in to the details.

 

[dcg9381]

OP needs to do a load calc for his new shop. Period.

I say bah an humbug to load calculators. Want to know what's going on in that panel, throw a $99 monitor on it.



I've never been able to outrun a shop that has 90A by myself, but I would want to know how much load is on that main panel.

 

[PCustoms]

I say bah an humbug to load calculators. Want to know what's going on in that panel, throw a $99 monitor on it.

Cool

How's that going to measure the load in his yet to be installed panel in his yet to be installed pole barn?

Are you supposed to build the barn, use some temporary wire and then fire everything up to get a reading?

Seems like a little math is easier

 

[dcg9381]

How's that going to measure the load in his yet to be installed panel in his yet to be installed pole barn?

I get it, but my general SWAG for a big-*** one man shop is 90A. I'm not saying a load calc isn't appropriate, but I'd want to know how much power I'm pulling from that 200A service before I start dropping new service lines which are gonna cost more than dropping a line to the shop.

Are you supposed to build the barn, use some temporary wire and then fire everything up to get a reading?
Seems like a little math is easier

Math is easier (and not a bad idea), but short of having an EV garage if you can pull more than 90A buy yourself, pretty impressive.

I'm mainly worried about the main to be honest.

 

[mm08822]

Cool

How's that going to measure the load in his yet to be installed panel in his yet to be installed pole barn?

Are you supposed to build the barn, use some temporary wire and then fire everything up to get a reading?

Seems like a little math is easier

It covers the house which is more likely to load up the 200a service. The new shop can be managed easily if it's the ubiquitous 1-man get-away place.

 

[PCustoms]

It covers the house which is more likely to load up the 200a service. The new shop can be managed easily if it's the ubiquitous 1-man get-away place.

Great.

Go back and read what I wrote, that was quoted.

"Shop"

 

[mm08822]

Great.

Go back and read what I wrote, that was quoted.

"Shop"

Gotcha.....now understand the total load on the service is the existing house PLUS the new building's "additional" load.

200a cbs don't care where the load comes from that passes through it. Knowing the house worst case load AND THEN imagined loads in outbuilding 3 is the determination for upgrading to 320 or seperate service.

 

[Codyboy]

Technically....

Not to get too sidetracked here, but I keep hearing about it the new energy code requirements in VT, one of them is tied to the electric code in that EV charging capability must be considered.

I haven't looked too far into it, but I've got to imagine it's driving costs sky high with the "what if" or "nice to have" requirements. If I build my planned shop, I believe per the code I would theoretically need 4 EVSE chargers.

Hmm. "Must be considered"

Doesn't sound too definitive to me if that's how it's written and sounds like a loophole.

Inspector: I can't pass it , you have no EV blah blah blah.

Me: Sir, is states to consider it. I considered it and decided I don't need it because I don't or will ever own an EV.
Thank you, please sign here and place your stamp.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I say bah an humbug to load calculators. Want to know what's going on in that panel, throw a $99 monitor on it.



I've never been able to outrun a shop that has 90A by myself, but I would want to know how much load is on that main panel.

Many PoCos and AHJs require load calcs before you can approved for a heavy-up/service upgrade

Good luck showing them your prosumer electronic meter readings

 

[dave*99]

Technically....

Not to get too sidetracked here, but I keep hearing about it the new energy code requirements in VT, one of them is tied to the electric code in that EV charging capability must be considered.

I haven't looked too far into it, but I've got to imagine it's driving costs sky high with the "what if" or "nice to have" requirements. If I build my planned shop, I believe per the code I would theoretically need 4 EVSE chargers.

Details are here.

Electric Vehicle Charging (Section R404.3) For residential properties, one electric vehicle (EV) charging—Level 2 capable parking space or one space with a Level 2 EV charging station is required for each new dwelling unit or the number of parking spaces provided, whichever is less.

https://www.driveelectricvt.com/uploads/media/Documents/Resources/VT-2024-EVSE-Building-Energy-Code-Overview.pdf

 

[mike93lx]

Up it to 200 amp for the pole barn you will at some time be using a 220 welder.

Terrible advice.

You will be 20 short (well, 40,but who's really counting?)

 

[cyberguypr]

Oh wow, didn't get any alerts so though n one responded. To answer some things:

• House was built in 2018. At least the house panel was inspected and passed, can't vouch for the other subpanels
• Load is just a guess. If someone can point me to a good writeup on how to calculate this in a more scientific manner, I'm all ears. Details on what I intend to run in the new garage:
  • 36k mini split
  • A
  • 4-post lift
  • 8 interior Hyperlite 100W high bay lights
  • 4 exterior LED lights
  • 65" TV
  • Stereo Receiver
  • Roku
  • 2 garage door openers
  • 1 fridge
  • A few Milwaukee/Bauer chargers
  • Also want to leave room to add a few laser printers in the future
  • Worth noting zero plans for welders or other things that pull a ton of power. No EVs unless all gas cars disappear from earth.
• House load: will do load calc once i get some pointers on how to do this. For reference, 1800 sq ft house, only power hungry things are HVAC, water heater, stove, fridge. Gut feeling is we are not using much even if running the bigger things all at once, but I could be wrong.
• Another point of reference, the two existing outbuildings rarely have anything pulling power. At their best, two lights and a few Milwaukee chargers. Maybe an electric saw once in a blue moon.

Let me know if I missed anything. Appreciate the input.

 

[PCustoms]

Oh wow, didn't get any alerts so though n one responded. To answer some things:

• House was built in 2018. At least the house panel was inspected and passed, can't vouch for the other subpanels
• Load is just a guess. If someone can point me to a good writeup on how to calculate this in a more scientific manner, I'm all ears. Details on what I intend to run in the new garage:
  • 36k mini split
  • A
  • 4-post lift
  • 8 interior Hyperlite 100W high bay lights
  • 4 exterior LED lights
  • 65" TV
  • Stereo Receiver
  • Roku
  • 2 garage door openers
  • 1 fridge
  • A few Milwaukee/Bauer chargers
  • Also want to leave room to add a few laser printers in the future
  • Worth noting zero plans for welders or other things that pull a ton of power. No EVs unless all gas cars disappear from earth.
• House load: will do load calc once i get some pointers on how to do this. For reference, 1800 sq ft house, only power hungry things are HVAC, water heater, stove, fridge. Gut feeling is we are not using much even if running the bigger things all at once, but I could be wrong.
• Another point of reference, the two existing outbuildings rarely have anything pulling power. At their best, two lights and a few Milwaukee chargers. Maybe an electric saw once in a blue moon.

Let me know if I missed anything. Appreciate the input.

Technically you should do a load calc at the house and the outbuildings, but based on what you described I personally wouldn't if this was my set-up, and I wouldn't run 100A to the new barn.

 

[mike93lx]

60a would easily cover the garage.

 

[dave*99]

There is a load calculator in here:

Electrical Toolbox

 

[Codyboy]

Oh wow, didn't get any alerts so though n one responded. To answer some things:

• House was built in 2018. At least the house panel was inspected and passed, can't vouch for the other subpanels
• Load is just a guess. If someone can point me to a good writeup on how to calculate this in a more scientific manner, I'm all ears. Details on what I intend to run in the new garage:
  • 36k mini split
  • A
  • 4-post lift
  • 8 interior Hyperlite 100W high bay lights
  • 4 exterior LED lights
  • 65" TV
  • Stereo Receiver
  • Roku
  • 2 garage door openers
  • 1 fridge
  • A few Milwaukee/Bauer chargers
  • Also want to leave room to add a few laser printers in the future
  • Worth noting zero plans for welders or other things that pull a ton of power. No EVs unless all gas cars disappear from earth.
• House load: will do load calc once i get some pointers on how to do this. For reference, 1800 sq ft house, only power hungry things are HVAC, water heater, stove, fridge. Gut feeling is we are not using much even if running the bigger things all at once, but I could be wrong.
• Another point of reference, the two existing outbuildings rarely have anything pulling power. At their best, two lights and a few Milwaukee chargers. Maybe an electric saw once in a blue moon.

Let me know if I missed anything. Appreciate the input.

No plumbing in new building for a sink and bathroom. Hot water heater?
Deep freezer?
What is the 'A' on the 2nd bullet point?
Is the house gas with no electric heat?

 

[dcg9381]

• Load is just a guess. If someone can point me to a good writeup on how to calculate this in a more scientific manner, I'm all ears. Details on what I intend to run in the new garage:
  • 36k mini split
  • A
  • 4-post lift
  • 8 interior Hyperlite 100W high bay lights
  • 4 exterior LED lights
  • 65" TV
  • Stereo Receiver
  • Roku
  • 2 garage door openers
  • 1 fridge
  • A few Milwaukee/Bauer chargers
  • Also want to leave room to add a few laser printers in the future
  • Worth noting zero plans for welders or other things that pull a ton of power. No EVs unless all gas cars disappear from earth.

Let me know if I missed anything. Appreciate the input.

Someone else provided load calcs.. They are probably "worst case".

I'm on 90A, I'm running:

• a hot tub (30A)
• 2 x 24K BTU splits
• Full kitchen (fridge, etc)
• Receiver, 2 TVs, my spouse has "band practice" there and they run 5 amps at once.
• Kegerator (now removed)
• Enough lights to make you wish you were outside
• 2 access points, transceivers
• 240V MIG welder
• "50A" RV with 3 air conditioners, 45k btu total
• 6 cameras
• Occasional EV charger at 30A.
• 4 battery maintainers
• Wood shop with several 240V @ 20A machines, 120V wood shop air filtration, 240V wood shop vacuum system
• 48A volt "battery charger / inverter" - 13A.

Course, none of this gets run 100% of the time. Being a 1 or 2 man shop, that sorta limits how much you can pull. I agree, you could get away with 60A (SWAG).

Nothing wrong with doing the calc, but the optimum cost per dollar is probably 60A or 90A. Go nuts if you want.

 

[cyberguypr]

No plumbing in new building for a sink and bathroom. Hot water heater?
Deep freezer?
What is the 'A' on the 2nd bullet point?
Is the house gas with no electric heat?

No plumbing, no freezer. A is... damn there was something there and now i got to go back and figure out what it was. House has gas for fireplace and heating.

 

[cyberguypr]

Use the calculator and house load is coming at 94 amps. I definitely see how my 100 amps for pole barn was way off.

 

[mm08822]

Use the calculator and house load is coming at 94 amps. I definitely see how my 100 amps for pole barn was way off.

Post a picture of that spreadsheet. I'm sure it has many loads as simultaneous. You should be able to pic the largest loads in descending order and check off which are likely to be running simultaneously.

I bet you come up with 50a max for the
house.

50/94 + new building load....you won't be tripping a 200A cb main. Even if it did trip by some rare occurance, just reset it.

So plan the feeder from the house for the new bldg.

 

[Codyboy]

Post a picture of that spreadsheet. I'm sure it has many loads as simultaneous. You should be able to pic the largest loads in descending order and check off which are likely to be running simultaneously.

I bet you come up with 50a max for the
house.

50/94 + new building load....you won't be tripping a 200A cb main. Even if it did trip by some rare occurance, just reset it.

So plan the feeder from the house for the new bldg.

Use the calculator and house load is coming at 94 amps. I definitely see how my 100 amps for pole barn was way off.

94 amps per leg or total of both? 47 per leg perhaps?

I've amped very large houses , some with 2 or 3 A/Cs and very seldom have I ever seen close to 100A per leg.

A normal house is usually about 25 to 35 per leg with everything running. The basic formula I'd use to size a transformer was 30A per leg for each house it would serve.

 

[cyberguypr]

94 amps per leg or total of both? 47 per leg perhaps?

I've amped very large houses , some with 2 or 3 A/Cs and very seldom have I ever seen close to 100A per leg.

A normal house is usually about 25 to 35 per leg with everything running. The basic formula I'd use to size a transformer was 30A per leg for each house it would serve.

No sure what this means, I sed this calc: https://www.kopperfield.com/load-calculator/

 

[Codyboy]

No sure what this means, I sed this calc:

It says 92 amps at 240 volts. So 46 amps per leg.

I would delete that link as it has your address on it.

 

[mm08822]

It says 92 amps at 240 volts. So 46 amps per leg.

I would delete that link as it has your address on it.

NOOOO! 92A @ 240v. 22125/240 = 92a per leg.

(46* 120= 5512
5512 *2 = 11024w 《》22050)

 

[mm08822]

No sure what this means, I sed this calc: https://www.kopperfield.com/load-calculator/

Why do you have 0 for ac and furnace.

Furnace blower will be at least 6a@120v when ac running.

 

[Codyboy]

Just at random today after reading this thread I pulled my covers and amped it.

2700 sq ft house middle of the day, hot 96° , AC WOT, two refrigerators, a deep freezer, two TVs, computer, some lights on here and there with 8 two bulb fluorescent lights in the garage, I don't think the dryer, washer or anything else at the time was on.
L1 15 amps, L2 21 amps.

As a side note , our smart meters will also display KVA usage. The kva usage is not reset monthly like a commercial account would be (due to billing) and always shows the peak kva ever used.

Middle of summer everything WOT and balls to the walls, AC, Dryer, a welder, dishwasher, TVs...
Around 10 years or so since thay meter was installed, I have a whopping peak of 15.54 kva.