Another mini split install!

[RKA]

Just wanted to throw up my experience as a newbie to any form of HVAC work. After receiving quotes of $5-10K to install a mini-split heat pump in my garage, I searched on here and other forums to learn as much as I could about the process (many thanks to those that documented their experience on this forum, seeing the process through a DIYer's eyes made me feel much more confident), took a leap of faith and put the order in. Last weekend the stars aligned...warm weather, a week off from work, and my neighbor was available to help me through the process.

Day 1 - Mounting the brackets and punching the hole through the back wall. We used 3 Hilti chemical anchors to affix the outdoor bracket to the wall (don't worry, it had nearly a week to cure before we set the condensor on it). It was overkill, but I wasn't sure if I would hit hollow or solid substrate and wanted to be sure I was good either way.

Day 2 - A whole lot of electrical (most of the time spent re-doing a 220 line that the previous owner left unprotected).

Day 3 - Run the linesets, mount the indoor unit, connect everything and pressure test. Most people skip the pressure test...I'm glad I did it! No issues, but the next day the vacuum gauge drove me crazy and the pressure test was enough to keep me sane.

Day 4 - Vacuum and release the charge and make final connections in the electrical panel.

I still have some clean up items to take care of, all cosmetic, but it's working great! Mostly I just want to say, if you're considering it but you're unsure, do it!!! Most of the big manufacturers have instructions available online. I read through the instructions on the LG, Fujitsu, Mitsubishi and Sanyo. Any detail left out from one set of instructions was usually covered in the other. If you don't have the time, Sanyo and LG probably had the best instructions, the rest were redundant info.

 

[rlitman]

Nice install. I've got a Freidrich, which I found out afterwards was made by Fujitsu. It is a GREAT unit.
Any reason you hung the unit on the wall, instead of putting it on the ground? I put mine on two 18x18 concrete tiles. Getting it 18" from the wall (instead of more like 6") helps the efficiency some.

 

[cajunfirehawk]

What do these systems run in cost? VERY Cool, no pun intended!

 

[RKA]

I put it on the wall mostly because of snow. I don't want to go back there to clean it out and I typically pile snow at the end of my driveway which makes access a bit of a pain when we get a few good storms. The manual stated 4" of clearance behind and it's got over 6" (but with the linesets partly obstructing). I think it will be okay...I pushed the unit as far out on that bracket as it would go. Worse case the heating capacity is impacted, but I oversized anyway, so it might take a little longer to bring the garage up to temp. And in the summer it has more than enough capacity, so I'm not really concerned.

Cajun, the units vary from just under $1K to $2K online. Final cost will depend on capacity you require, brand, efficiency rating and whether you want the heat pump option. Add in approx. $500 in misc supplies/tools. Don't forget to check with your local state and utility company for energy efficiency rebates. In my case they were offering $500 which more than offset the price increase for the higher efficiency unit (and for mini splits a DIY installation was allowed and the manual J requirement was waived). I know others here are also getting federal tax credits as well which are due to end this year (unfortunately I'm no longer eligible for those, otherwise it would have been another $500 in my pocket).

 

[rlitman]

WOW! Kudos on a $500 rebate! I wasn't able to get anything on mine for a self install.

I didn't think about the heat. Mine is cool only. That makes lots more sense now.

 

[Jackfre]

I represented Fujitsu for 12 yrs until selling my business this last summer. While Friedrich units are in fact manuf by Fujitsu they do not get the top of the line equipment offered by Fujitsu, or up until '11 they did not. You want to get your ms off the ground to improve the performance in the heat side. As well, it reduces the cleanings necessary. i went out on a new install wit ha contractor last spring on a new Fujitsu unit. He had placed it on a condenser pad and the rainwater coming off the roof had landed approx 1' in front of the unit and the dirt splashing onto the coil had effectively blocked 40% of the face of the coil. The unit was less than 1 wk old. As well, when ou are mowing the grass or blowing leaves you are not impacting the debris into the face of the coil. Finally, I can't kneal for very long. Much better to work standing up
One other thing. Given the performance of the inverter ms. NEVER buy a cooling only unit. Put in the heat pump and run the bejeepers out of it in heat and your savings will pay for the system in a few years.

 

[rlitman]

Yes, the heat is VERY efficient. Especially at temperatures above freezing, but at over 20c/kWh on Long Island, it's not really worth running when I have natural gas heat (maybe if I had oil).

Anyway, you make some VERY good points here. Splashing rainwater would be a big problem. Something you don't think about much (and isn't mentioned in the manuals).

 

[Jackfre]

$.20 a kwh. Ahhh, the Island. Had a lot of fun out there once upon a time. Generally, the savings for you would come in not heating the whole place all the time. MS' are kinda zone control. Just for grins go to miniheat.com and run the numbers. I was going to try but do not know the cost of ng. If I had the choice of gas or oil I would go gas every time. I would expect gas to be much more stable price wise than oil.

 

[some zilch]

could you describe the vacuuming/releasing the charge portion of the install?

i just instlled a mitsubishi unit, to suppliment my woodstove, and to have something that can come on if we are not home w/the stove; plus the a/c will be nice as we dont have any. i have the unit totally installed/wired, but cant seem to find anyone who will come out and do the vacuum/release of the charge for a reasonable cost (less than $400ish).

i cant imagine its all *that* hard to do if you have a vacuum pump, right? the refrigerant is in the unit already, its just a matter of pulling a vacuum and opeing the release valves, right?

how did you pressure test?

 

[RKA]

The following assumes that the line set length conforms to the limits stated in the manual. If you need to remove or add a charge, call an HVAC tech.

Before you pull the vacuum, pressure test it with nitrogen. A lot of people skip that test and assume the vacuum gauge will tell you if anything is wrong. What I found is the pressure test can be done over a period of time to see if it holds. That's not entirely true with a vacuum gauge (see following paragraph on vacuum). I had a gauge set that gave me 0.1 resolution of pressure (psig), so I let it sit for only 3 hours and I was happy it was tight and leak free. With less resolution, I would let it sit overnight, but realize you will see some pressure drop as temp drops, so record start and stop temps and run your high school physics calculations to make sure the pressure drop is only related to temp and not leakage. Optionally you can also spray some fluid (fancy more viscous form of soapy water) to check for small leaks. Some people will skip the nitrogen test altogether and pull the vacuum, then release *some* refrigerant and quickly check for leaks. I don't like this because you end up releasing refrigerant into the atmosphere if you do have a leak and possibly depleting your charge depending on the amount you used for your "pressure test" and the size of the leak and whether you had to disassemble to correct the problem or just tighten a flare fitting. Supplies for nitrogen test: 1/4" - 5/16" adaptor (your service valve is probably 5/16 and your hose set will likely be 1/4"), gauge set and hoses to read system pressures, nitrogen tank and regulator for the nitrogen tank (plus one hose to connect regulator to gauge set). Cost is about $100 for the gauge set and hoses, adapters are inexpensive and found on ebay, and the nitrogen tank and regulator are about $150 which is why homeowners will pass on it.

Pulling the vacuum: Many homeowners will skip on the gauge, and just put a pump in overnight and call it a day. That's up to you, but I'm glad I got the gauge so I could see what was going on. With a fresh quart of vacuum pump oil, I got the system down to 750 microns in 15 mins and down to 350ish in about 1 hour (the equipment I used sped the process, most homeowners should expect at least double the times up to this point). The pump continued running for a while without much more progress, so I shut off the valves closing off the system and watched the gauge slowly rise unhindered. After 1/2 hour I turn the pump back on, and it pulled a deeper vacuum eventually hitting another point of resistance. I closed it off and shut off the pump and the microns slowly crept north again. I repeated this cycle about 5 times, each time I pulled a deeper vacuum (the entire process consumed the better part of a day). When I got under 100 microns, I closed everything off, pulled the hoses and disconnected all the vac equipment. Now there will be a slight bit of air leakage anytime you're fiddling with blank off valves or hoses, so before you disconnect the vac equipment, you could open the king valves to release a small amount of refrigerant to put the system under very slight pressure, then disconnect the vac equipment if you want to avoid possibility of air getting into the system. Note that some refrigerant will travel up the hoses to the vac guage and pump, but it won't be much if you're just opening the king valves for 5 seconds and close them off. Cost is about $150 for vac gauge and $150 for vac pump and $10 for vac oil at your local NAPA (might be a special order). You can use the hoses from the pressure gauge set to pull the vacuum as well as the adapter. Some people skip on the vac gauge to save on cost, but you're flying blind. Leaving the pump on overnight isn't the solution imho. Some manufacturers will state you need to pull 500 microns, mine said 200 microns (I think). 500 is almost universally accepted as a standard based on what I've read.

Once you've got the vacuum equipment disconnected, you can fully open the king valves to release the refrigerant. When it's done, turn the valves 1/4 clockwise, put the caps back on, and torque them to spec (should be around 20-30 ft lbs).

It's really not too bad and having the right equipment on hand makes it painfully easy, but it costs a bit of money. There are shortcuts I've mentioned, so it's really up to you. How complete and thorough do you want to be and how much more do you want to spend on tools you'll probably use once?

If you're near NJ, PM me, maybe we can work something out so don't need to buy the tools.

 

[Jackfre]

It is much easier to pull a vacuum after the nitrogen purge and pressure test. Blow nitrogen thru the system and then pressure test with it. the evaporator has no internal controls. It is just an open pipe for refrigerant, so there is nothing to be harned by blowing the line out. The micron gauge is important to you.

 

[cajunfirehawk]

Thanks for the info, this has given me new hope for our master bedroom which is always the warmest room in our home and directly next to it is our master bath which is always the coldest, heat pump version here we come!

 

[Markwithak]

Nice install but as a licensed HVAC/R tech there are a few things about this that jump out at me. Assuming that your charge is correct because you stayed within the recommended lineset run can be asking for future issues, the charge needs to be accurate to provide the correct amount of superheat. This will effect the efficiency of the system. Not enough and the compressor will not receive enough cooling, too much and you run the risk of bringing liquid refrigerant back to the compressor and slugging it, both could lead to compressor failure.

The other main thing about this is that unless you have the proper EPA license it is highly illegal. I know that people often complain about the costs of a qualified HVAC technician but there is a reason for it.

 

[RKA]

1. Superheat and subcooling will be confirmed with a testo 550 (if possible), but I am within the manufacturer's recommendations on line set length. If reclamation is required, an HVAC tech can come in and do that for a fraction of the cost. What I have read so far (from HVAC techs) is that accurate superheat and subcooling can't be determined because the TXV is inside the compressor (?), however I've read just as many posts claiming they can check superheat and subcooling. Almost universally, everyone says charges need to be weighed in on mini splits if you want it done accurately, which means if one follows the manufacturer's guidelines for line set length (and additions or subtractions per foot) you are fine. What's interesting is the manufacturer lists charge by weight and line set length on the unit and in the instructions, but doesn't reference PT charts or SH/SC anywhere. So in the interests of furthering DIY knowledge for those that wish to do it right, what is the truth here?

2. What exactly is illegal as determined by the EPA (and their $19 license test that anyone can take online)? I didn't reclaim, release or add charge to the unit. My interpretation is it might be illegal to connect a gauge set or open the king valves without that $19 license.

I don't mean to be argumentative, however, please understand, if someone walks into my house and wants to overcharge me for work, I'm going to say "no thank you". When I ask whether they will charge and set up the system after I have all the installation work performed, the answer is "absolutely not", and if asked over the phone, they will not even make a site visit. IMHO, the people I've had contact with (and local refrigeration supply houses) regarding this project have used the EPA rules as a form of extortion and our government has made that possible. So what I'm saying is...if you wish to add clarity, I'm sure I and many others on this forum would appreciate it, but if your end game is to promote the industry, there is no discussion.

 

[Markwithak]

Well let's look at the TXV comment. TXV stands for Thermal Expansion Valve, it is your metering device located at the evap coil NOT in the compressor. And any tech that tells you that you cannot adjust the superheat or subcooling is either lying to you or they have no clue what they are doing. Assuming that this is an R410 unit there should be a manufacturer specified amount of subcooling on the name plate and it is there for a reason. Exceeding this will cause damage to the system and possibly void the warranty. Likewise most warranties can be deemed void if the system was not installed by a qualified contractor.

In regards to your concerns that the manufacturer doesn't list P/T charts, superheat or subcooling is because these are not meant to be installed by the laymen and any level of HVAC/R tech is going to know to check the pressures and adjust based upon the current conditions. The manufacturer stating that X amount of refrigerant is good for Y feet of line run is simply a base and should not be considered to be the correct charge. I have installed more pre-charged systems then I care to think about and that factory charge was never correct. Whoever told you that mini-splits should have their charge weighed in is 100% correct and that applies to any mechanical refrigeration equipment.

Your line set looks to be a pre-charged line but whether it is or not, the way that you have it coiled up behind the condensing unit can cause oil traps and any oil trapped in the line is oil not getting back to your compressor. That is a condition any experienced technician would have known to rectify.

Now as far as the EPA licensing comment, that I will take some issue with. Just because it only costs $19 to take a test doesn't negate the importance of the test itself. Granted that those tests (there are a total of 4 for the Universal Certification) do not guarantee that someone is proficient, or even competent for that matter, but it does prove the knowledge of handling/recovery/reclaiming refrigerant and the environmental ramifications of mis-handling them. You have to have a license to buy the stuff and you have to have one to work with it. That is the law and whether or not you agree with it is a mute point. The bottom line is that what you done, and encouraging others to do, is currently considered illegal and subject to hefty fines which last I read were in the 70-80,000 range with a rather substantial reward to those reporting these to the EPA but I digress.

Now if I sound argumentative then I apologize but this what I do for a living. And you can bet you last dollar that I will promote the industry that has provided for me and my family until the day they drop me in a hole.

 

[RKA]

Here's one article that suggests the metering device may be on the outdoor unit (however they added in parens the plural which leads me to wonder). I've found many others that has led to my confusion on the subject.
http://www.achrnews.com/articles/ten-keys-to-successful-mini-split-installations

Here's some more information on charging by superheat or subcooling. If you can add any more clarity, I'm all for it!
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Heating-Air-Conditioning-696/2011/5/charging-mini-splits.htm

Unfortunately, I have not seen subcooling parameters on the nameplate and I have looked (unless they are printing electrical parameters in one place and refrigeration parameters somewhere else?). I've scoured all the literature that came with the unit, nothing. When/if I find it and get more clarity on the process, then I can check. Meanwhile, I followed the manufacturers recommendation not to go shorter than 17 ft on the line set. It said this was to prevent noise from the outdoor unit from being transmitted to the indoor unit, but that's all it said. Maybe their intention was so you didn't have too much charge in the system...and if that's the case, checking subcooling and adjusting the charge is my answer. This was the reason for the coiled lineset for now...yes, I agree it's an oil trap, but it's easy to rectify later if I can find the information I need.

We'll have to disagree on the purpose/benefit of the EPA test, but suffice it to say, I will need to get it when I decide to service my other HVAC equipment. I'll let you know if I feel any smarter.

 

[Jackfre]

Actually, the metering device on the inverter minisplits is in the condensing unit. While the trade continues to reference them as liquid and suction they are both gas lines. From the service valves on the condensing unit to the evap. You have no more than an open pipe. The evaporator has sensors, pcbs, the coil and the fan.

You are correct on the coiled line set behind the unit. That MUST be changed or you are going to be looking at a new compressor. You do trap oil in this configuration. What model is this and how long is the line set from condenser to evap. You need to recover the refrig, re-install the line set properly and recharge. Fyi, the min line set for the 9,12, 15 is 9'. Larger units have a min of 16'. If your line set does not meet the min you may lay off the line set in a serpentine fashion across the back of the unit. If you have sufficient lineset you may cut the tubing to the proper length. That is desirable. I NEVER use the manuf flares on the tubing. I always do my own. With the 410a refrigerant you are operating at higher temps and pressures and Over the years I've seen to much problem with the line set manuf flares. A couple years ago I bought a new Ritchie flaring tool. The first flare I did with that, I went over to my tool box, took my old flaring block out and threw one piece in one trash barrel and the other in another trash barrel. I didn't want anyone to think they had a find. Ridgid also makes a good tool. These are not inexpensive, but what does one leak cost you?

 

[RKA]

It's a 24RLXFW and the line set is about 21 feet at this time. So you're saying orient the the tubing left and right behind the condensor to meet the min length?

I do like that flaring tool as well...it's pretty idiot proof. My first practice flare came out nice and clean.

 

[Jackfre]

Yes, lay it off in a climbing pattern across the back to the left,while facing the unit. Get a tubing bender and bend a 180to go back to the right. Do this as many times as you need to to achieve at least the minimum line length. It may require another flare fitting as it can be a pain trying to swing that much tubing around and you do not want to crimp it. The problem is that the first time you pick up soft copper it bends like cooked spaghetti, but it work hardens and can get really unfriendly. After recovering the refrigerant and correcting the line set you will have to weigh in your refrigerant charge based upon # of ft of line set. That charge info is in your manual. You cannot charge with superheat on these units, only weight!

Have you registered your install at www.fujitsugeneral.com? Do so!

 

[RKA]

What does registering the install do for me? If I purchased over the internet, my understanding is that the warranty is void, correct?

What you're confirming about "charge by weight only" is interesting when combined with some statements in the installation manual (which vary from many other manufacturers).
1. Min line set length is 17 ft (you say 16 ft - but close enough)
2. Max line set length without adding more charge is 66 ft. (most other manufacturers state 25-30 ft).
3. Unit is pre-charged with 4 lbs 10 oz. of R410a.
4. Superheat and subcooling are the most accurate way of adjusting charge to maximize system efficiency (in most conventional refrigeration systems).
5. You can't adjust charge for these systems by superheat/subcooling (still not 100% clear on why due to my lack of knowledge on how inverter mini splits are designed to operate).

So how is it possible that a fixed charge would work for a line set differential of 50 feet and still attain the efficiency set forth in Fujitsu's printed marketing? It probably isn't, but based on what I'm seeing, there is no way to charge to achieve maximum efficiency, is that correct?

 

[Jackfre]

You have a variable speed piece of equipment. The compressor, condenser fan and evaporator fan are all variable speed. The PCB is sensing the temp of the room air, evaporator temp and others and making the decision to run at X speed, on each of those components. Pretty cool technology really. Pardon my mistake on the line set length. The manual rules! You do have an accumulator that allows the unit to handle the pre-charge. Once you disconnect the line-set you will have had to recover the refrigerant. Once the system has been opened and you know the line set length just weigh in the proper amount of liquid 410A.

Charging with superheat as noted in previous posts is the standard method of charging conventional single stage equipment, IF the metering device is located in the evaporator. With the inverter mini-splits the metering device is in the in the condensing unit and as such you have two GAS lines. There is no liquid line as in a conventional system.

Line set length varies by manuf. Fujitsu has, I believe, the longest line set capability. They get away with this by their ability to control the various components. I cannot give you any more detail. I simply do not know. If I understood Japanese as well as the Japanese understand what we call English, I could get better info out of the Japanese engineers, but I can't.

The optimum refrigerant charge is as noted per foot in the manual. Congratulations, you have discovered the method of achieving optimum efficiency

 

[RKA]

I just want to follow up on rlitman's post about Friedrich and Fujitsu. I was a little skeptical at first, knowing full well many industries just sub out the manufacturer to another party and slap their label on it, but that doesn't make the product equivalent to the product line produced by the third party. Well, in this case, I've yet to find any evidence that would suggest the Friedrich units are anything less than a re-labeled Fujitsu (Friedrich only offers up to 18K BTU I think). I looked through the installation instructions, manuals, and AHRI efficiency ratings and output numbers. The Friedrich units appear to be identical in every way I've been able to tell. If I could do it all over again, I'd save the 20% (online prices) and go with the Friedrich units. Wished I had known earlier, but hopefully this helps someone else looking to save a few bucks.

 

[Jackfre]

I just want to follow up on rlitman's post about Friedrich and Fujitsu. I was a little skeptical at first, knowing full well many industries just sub out the manufacturer to another party and slap their label on it, but that doesn't make the product equivalent to the product line produced by the third party. Well, in this case, I've yet to find any evidence that would suggest the Friedrich units are anything less than a re-labeled Fujitsu (Friedrich only offers up to 18K BTU I think). I looked through the installation instructions, manuals, and AHRI efficiency ratings and output numbers. The Friedrich units appear to be identical in every way I've been able to tell. If I could do it all over again, I'd save the 20% (online prices) and go with the Friedrich units. Wished I had known earlier, but hopefully this helps someone else looking to save a few bucks.

The Friedrich units are in fact private label manuf by Fujitsu. Generally, they are previous year models and typically lack some features. That will vary year to year and model to model. As the Fujitsu rep it used to drive me crazy that I would meet myself coming around the corner with a Fried. unit. As time went by I learned that they are not the same, do not have the support and were not a threat to me in the market. You have the best unit money can buy. Yes, you can save 20%, but in this case, you got what you paid for I guess the right way to say it is you got the best VALUE for your expenditure.

In my opinion if I was selecting a mini-split in order of preference I would buy a Fujitsu, Mitusbishi, Daikin (distant third) and never an LG. I competed head to head in a six state area for 12 years in this catagory and that is what my experience showed me. F & M are both excellent! I say never an LG because their support was abysmal and did not improve over the years. You want a company that has a dedicated HVAC dept so when you do call you don't end up talking to the coffee pot guy. It drove contractors crazy and I took that business

 

[RKA]

We had our first really cold night last night. I thought I would update with some real world results on how these do for heating garage spaces. I had a hard time finding info like this before deciding to purchase. Reminder, this is about 600 sq ft garage with 11 ft ceilings and a 24K BTU Fujitsu heat pump.

Just for sh*ts and giggles, I turned the unit on this morning to see what it could do. Garage at 40F and it's 15F outside. Once it got up and running, temp at the coils measured with an IR therm was around 95F-100F, which is a solid 15F lower than it would be if ambient temps were 50F. It took 2 hours just to bring the garage temp up ~15F to about 55F. It probably would have taken another hour to get up to 65F, but I had to leave for work.

During the 2 hours it was chugging along using ~3.7kwh (with exception to the periodic defrost cycles). At $0.15/kwh, that's just under $0.60/hr, which isn't too terrible considering it's running full bore. Once it hits the target temp the electrical consumption drops to about half by my guesstimation (still not sure as I haven't logged and graphed it yet).

These weren't designed to handle large temperature swings, so all things considered, it does the job admirably and economically. The remotes can be programmed with a turn on time if you know in advance when you'll need it running the next day, so this helps somewhat. I'm still amazed that it can generate 100F air when the outside temps are 15F! If I could do it all over, I'd do the exact same thing if you can live with the length of time it takes to warm up a cold space. If not, you'd need to combine the heat pump with some other heat source (fuel or 240v based) that could kick out heat for the first hour to jump start the whole process...or...a mini split for heating just isn't for you.

Another thing worth mentioning if you have a day job and just need this to heat your garage on nights or weekends is that these observations were first thing in the AM (6-8AM) before solar heat gain has a chance to take effect. If you would be turning this on around 3-4PM where the outside temps are a little higher and the sun is still up, my guess is the garage could go from 40F to 65F inside the 2 hour window and easily maintain that when the sun goes down (provided of course the space is well insulated).

 

[Centex Hokie]

Just curious if the unit held up after the DIY Install?

Thanks.

 

[RKA]

Not only has it held up, it's exceeded expectations. We've had an abnormally cold winter this year. On one morning it was 2-4F outside depending on which reading you believed. I forget the garage temps, but I suspect it was between 30-40F, likely on the lower side of that range. My unit is rated to operate down to 5F ambient. I flipped it on, and in under 5 mins it started kicking out heat!! I measured the temp at the coils using an infrared temp gun, and they were 100-105F, which is pretty close to what they are when the temps are in the high teens. For a heat pump, that blew me away! I'm not sure exactly how much heat capacity was lost between high teens and minimum operating temperature, but from my casual observations, it wasn't much (there is some loss in heat output around 20F which is documented in their literature).

So, highly recommended!

 

[Centex Hokie]

Not only has it held up, it's exceeded expectations. We've had an abnormally cold winter this year. On one morning it was 2-4F outside depending on which reading you believed. I forget the garage temps, but I suspect it was between 30-40F, likely on the lower side of that range. My unit is rated to operate down to 5F ambient. I flipped it on, and in under 5 mins it started kicking out heat!! I measured the temp at the coils using an infrared temp gun, and they were 100-105F, which is pretty close to what they are when the temps are in the high teens. For a heat pump, that blew me away! I'm not sure exactly how much heat capacity was lost between high teens and minimum operating temperature, but from my casual observations, it wasn't much (there is some loss in heat output around 20F which is documented in their literature).

So, highly recommended!

Thanks. The contractor I spoke to about my garden room acted like installing these was some type of Voodoo, but looking at the videos online it looked pretty straightforward as long as you were diligent. Thanks for the information.

 

[Jackfre]

Just an FYI, but Fujitsu has terminated their deal with Friedrich. Friedrich are now using LG or Samsung

 

[Centex Hokie]

Just an FYI, but Fujitsu has terminated their deal with Friedrich. Friedrich are now using LG or Samsung

Thanks.

 

[JakeKohl]

...

In my opinion if I was selecting a mini-split in order of preference I would buy a Fujitsu, Mitusbishi, Daikin (distant third) and never an LG. I competed head to head in a six state area for 12 years in this catagory and that is what my experience showed me. F & M are both excellent! I say never an LG because their support was abysmal and did not improve over the years. You want a company that has a dedicated HVAC dept so when you do call you don't end up talking to the coffee pot guy. It drove contractors crazy and I took that business

I have a limited experience but I installed two LG units and had to contact their service group because my thermostat settings were not accurate (the only display was on the remote...no display on the wall unit). The issue was a pretty easy one - they had a known issue with a particular series of remotes that would not send the correct signals to the unit (or displayed the wrong temp or something). They sent me two new remotes without any hassle. The people I spoke to were in the US and although they weren't terribly friendly, they were expedient in handling my issue. Granted, this wasn't a complicated technical issue.

The indoor units can be pretty ugly and I think LG makes some of the better looking units out there with their artcool series (that's what I have). The units have performed very well and I've been really happy with them. I'm considering installing mini-splits throughout my house but am kinda waiting for the next generation Mitsu or LG hoping that they'll do some things with wifi and connectivity and allow me to schedule the units without having to leave the remote somehow pointed at it.

 

[RKA]

Thanks. The contractor I spoke to about my garden room acted like installing these was some type of Voodoo, but looking at the videos online it looked pretty straightforward as long as you were diligent. Thanks for the information.

Run, don't walk, from that contractor. I think there are some contractors out there that just don't install these very often for whatever reason. They are happy installing the same equipment they have been installing for the past half century. It's not rocket science, but when something doesn't work, you don't need the guy that's afraid of them. You want the guy that works with them day in and day out. That's what you're paying for. And the last thing you want is the installer setting you up for an "I told you so" down the road.

 

[yeldogt]

RKA: Wondering where you picked up the equipment? I see various Pumps and Gauges advertised .. but confusing. Also, the filled Nitrogen tank.

I have not made the final decision regarding my shop's HVAC ... but I have another spot that I have to work on and a mini would be perfect. My friend just paid $5k for a 12k unit ... I could not believe how sloppy the install ... it works well .. but what a mess. I have a LG Artcool unit that is a couple years old that was never installed .. and it may be just the ticket .. and a good test case.

I'm in the New Hope/ Lambertville area and Napa was no help (or did you just use Napa for the oil?) .. Thanks for any info

 

[RKA]

Off the top of my head...
Gauges, lines and vacuum pump: http://viot.us/
NO2 tank and regulator: http://www.weldfabulous.com/ (fill at your local gas supply place
Vacuum gauge: http://www.trutechtools.com/BluVacLTE?gdftrk=gdfV26224_a_7c2772_a_7c10009_a_7c1806&gclid=CIm2maL0v70CFaLm7Aodc3EALw (I also got my manifold and gauge set here instead of viot. I wanted a digital gauge set.)
ebay member jsphilly is Johnstone Supply in Phila. They won't deal direct with walk in homeowners, but they will sell to you via their ebay store. I think I got a yellow jacket flaring tool from them, which was a bit expensive, but made flares idiot-proof.

Make sure you get adapters for the line sets running out of your gauge. They will be 1/4", the condenser on mini splits is usually 5/16" and sometimes the vendor will throw them in the box with the purchase, so check.

That's what I can remember. I'll be out in Newtown on the morning of the 13th if you want to talk. Otherwise I'm only an hour east of there. If you promise to return equipment in pristine condition, I've saved all the tools and would be happy to lend you what you need. PM me if you need anything or would prefer to talk.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I don't know where my post went.

Anyway, my $.02...

There's some minor misconceptions here.

First off, if you a buy a Fujitsu online, or from any unauthorized dealer or reseller, the warranty is void.

You can get the EPA cert online, but make sure you're testing for Section 608, not 609. Section 609 is for MVAC only. Proctored tests allow a 70% passing rate, online tests are 84%. You must pass the Core exam to be eligible to pass any other sections of the exam. Once you do, if you only pass Type I & III, you can't legally install your ductless split. You must get a minimum Type II or Universal cert.

You can't use vacuum to leak test, period. If you have a leak, you're pulling atmosphere into the system, exposing it to moisture. That's why you test with dehydrated Nitrogen with a trace of refrigerant.

The line set on a ductless mini split is a little different than a regular split system and the metering device is in the condensing unit, not at the evaporator inlet, that's why you can't always take superheat/subcooling measurements. The "small" line is not a liquid line, it's a low pressure saturated vapor line & the "big" line is a regular suction line (low pressure, superheated vapor). You can sometimes test for superheat/subcooling if it has a service port on the liquid line and you'll have to partially disassemble the condensing unit to install your temperature probes because the metering device is in the condensing unit, then you may have to completely reassemble it to get it to operate properly.


Tommy

 

[yeldogt]

RKA: Thanks for the information .. I will use your links to do some more searching/ information gathering.

And your offer is very generous ... I'm a bit of a tool nut ... ... well .... a bit more than a bit ... so I understand .... I actually have tools to lend out! People don't respect .. or understand the cost.

I am still a month or so from starting the smaller project .. will update.

 

[Artfrombama]

Installed a Fujitsu 24K BTU system in my house ten months ago and regret not getting a dual zone for the back part of my house. I still may do this in a year or so.
First winter and has worked great. Cooled last Summer like a dream.

 

[sevenzeronova]

Figured I would give a few tips.

I install 3 to 4 mini splits a month for the company I work for. I am Mitisubishi M, P, Citi Multi certified and HVAC/R licensed/EPA universal Certified.

Always pressure test to 600 psi with nitrogen ONLY!.
410a systems can easily reach this in high outdoor temps and in defrost modes occasionally.

Always elevate the condenser off the ground if in snow or freezing climates. This gives the defrosted water run off a place to go. If left on the ground it will build up and impede fan operation from ice dam build up or crush the coil. Warmer climates keeps debris away from coil, stays cleaner.

Evacuation, triple evacuation will speed the process and remove all moisture from the system. The oil in the system is very hygroscopic.

Use only the flare nuts supplied with equipment, they are rated for the system pressures.
Alway coat flare faces with the systems type oil and torque to proper specs.

Hope this helps some of guys out!

 

[stretchhenry]

RKA and All,

I have just finished the very complete write-up on your install and I wanted to see how things are going after a few years of running it.
I'm about to install my 1st ductless mini-split and thanks to you and many others sharing their experiences, I feel confident jumping into the fire.
A few questions if you can still remember

1. Was the service valve size on the outdoor unit the same as the Hi and Low?
2. When you performed the pressure test, did you connect the manifold to just the 'Low' or both Low and Hi?
3. How was the heating last winter? Long Island got hit with very low temps and I want to make sure it does what is says on the box!

Thanks again!

\\Mark

 

[theoldwizard1]

Evacuation, triple evacuation will speed the process ...

What is "triple evacuation" ?

 

[sevenzeronova]

Triple evacuation*@#$— A method of evacuation that initially pulls the vacuum down to between 1,000 and 2,000 microns. Then a small amount of inert gas such as nitrogen is introduced into the system. The object is for the gas to absorb moisture from the system. The gas is then purged, and this process is repeated two additional times.