Another mini split install!

[RKA]

RKA and All,

I have just finished the very complete write-up on your install and I wanted to see how things are going after a few years of running it.
I'm about to install my 1st ductless mini-split and thanks to you and many others sharing their experiences, I feel confident jumping into the fire.
A few questions if you can still remember

1. Was the service valve size on the outdoor unit the same as the Hi and Low?
2. When you performed the pressure test, did you connect the manifold to just the 'Low' or both Low and Hi?
3. How was the heating last winter? Long Island got hit with very low temps and I want to make sure it does what is says on the box!

Thanks again!

\\Mark

1. High and low pressure are standard 5/16".
2. I only fed Nitrogen into the low side because I only had one adapter on hand. It will flow through the system and pressurize everything, no need to feed through both.
3. If you scroll up to post #26 back in March, you'll see some feedback from this winter. I didn't use it much, however, like you, I wanted to see how it did at the extremes. I was pleasantly surprised how well it held efficiency from high teens down to near 0F. I'd say the biggest drop in efficiency is somewhere in the 20's and below that the curve flattens out and it maintains it's heat output exceptionally well. The lowest BTU spec is for 17F and I think it's safe to use for purposes of heat calcs all the way down to the minimum operating temp if you're sizing your unit.

Good luck! You'll love it!

 

[jsalzer1979]

I've just started the option of getting mini split systems for my vacation home. I am a DYIer and I am really looking forward to getting my hands dirty with a mini split system. I am all for paying a contractor to do the installation for me, if their prices weren't so outrageous!! I've had quotes of $8K-10K for installation alone of a condenser and 4 units!! I just don't see what is so complicated that would warrant such an outrageous installation fee.

I really enjoyed reading this post and gives me confidence to tackle this myself.

 

[CWO4GUNNER]

Congratulations on the DIY. I'm a landlord and got my Res/Com and EPA cert at the local community college to work on my own units and although the classes were comprehensive and very valuable being taught by an excellent teacher who had 50 years industry experience, everyone agreed in class as well as the instructor himself that the EPA test was nothing more then a memory test. In fact we had one class devoted to passing the EPA test. Having said that I think you did a great job. The only thing that stood out to me was the extra line set length coiled up behind the outside unit, something I would have had to shorted up or at least located the either or both the condensing unit and evap so that the provided lineset length was taken up and hidden behind the siding and insulation. Other then that if the system worked and my Delta-T looked good, there is no way my instructor would recommend doing time consuming superheat and sub-cooling calculations on a system that is working fine, a system that is obviously not cooling within perimeters yes. But even then there is only one way to accurately charge a system that is improperly charged and that is to evacuate and weigh in the manufacturers recommended charge, but in your case that had already been done.

BRVO-ZULU! you did a great DIY job...

 

[vmusch]

The law exempts the homeowner from EPA certifications, you are only required to have the certifications if you are performing HVAC work for compensation. This exemption does not allow you to vent refrigerant. So enjoy DIYers, just don't do it for others.....and yes beer is compensation.

I know folks will have a fit about this, find the law and read it, not what you are taught but the actual law.

 

[rlitman]

The law exempts the homeowner from EPA certifications, you are only required to have the certifications if you are performing HVAC work for compensation.

This is true, if you are working on your car with an R134a system. This is not true for your home AC with R22 or R410a. That is why small cans of R134a are sold in stores, but other refrigerants are not.

 

[Syberia]

They are, however, sold all over eBay with "no certification required" posted prominently in the listing. If this was not true, someone would have reported them by now and collected their EPA reward money, and eBay would also pull them for fear of being fined. Notice you don't see R22 and R12 ads willing to sell to buyers without certification.

Most likely the reason R410a is not sold in stores is because either there is no market for it, or (more likely) the manufacturers/distributors don't want you working on your own a/c, just like parts aren't sold via DIY channels either unless you go online.

 

[vmusch]

Purchasing refrigerants is different than working on a unit. So maybe the intent of the government was if you cannot purchase the refrigerant it will deter the home owner from working on the system. IDK just a thought.

 

[radioactiveboyscout]

Hi Folks,

I've been lurking reading many threads in preparation for a mini split install. I have a question on the install location I'd like to get some feedback on. I live in a high altitude mountain climate that gets plenty of snow in the winter and rarely needs a/c in the summer (maybe 1-2 weeks that's hot but tolerable). Based on my situation I'd like the install to optimize the unit for heating if possible. This brings me to a dilemma with the installation location. The choice of locations for the outdoor unit are as follows:

* directly on the other side of the wall and below the inner head unit by about 8 feet of vertical separation OR
* up on the roof above the unit and offset for a total line length of maybe 16 feet. The roof location would be a vertical separation of approximately 6 feet

The pluses and minuses of the each of the locations are as follows:
Outdoor unit below and near to ground level:
+ ease of installation and access
- more susceptible to damage from people/animals and fouling from dirt
- located on the north facing wall of house which is typically 5-10 degrees cooler than other areas around house. Never gets direct sunlight. Will this impact optimization for winter heating with the unit trying to pick up heat from the coldest side of the house?

Outdoor unit on roof 6 feet above indoor unit:
+ protected area with less likelihood of damage from people/animals
+ less fouling of unit from dirt/plants etc.
- in direct sunlight all day long (I've read direct sunlight should be avoided - is this for cooling reasons only??)
- difficult installation with hoisting unit to the roof and running line sets from a ladder

Optimization of heating is my real driver here. But I'm really not sure whether the unit being on the cool side of the house would really make that much difference? Am I over thinking it? I'd hate to do the roof installation only to find out it wasn't really an optimal solution. Any thought would be appreciated. Cheers.

 

[CWO4GUNNER]

Wow you should consider creating a new thread since your situation is a bit more complicated and priority being heat or heat pump. I suppose there is no NG at your mountain home as gas would make things so much simpler and efficient for heating. Sine I dont know the locations of the mountains I can only assume you get snow drifts that are in excess of 6 feet. And of course depending on how cold there are limitations with both operation and efficiency once the temperature starts dropping below low depending on the model. And of course the periodicity of use if its a mountain retreat used only a few times a year. Those variable are probubly as important as any when it comes to OD unit location.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

They are, however, sold all over eBay with "no certification required" posted prominently in the listing. If this was not true, someone would have reported them by now and collected their EPA reward money, and eBay would also pull them for fear of being fined. Notice you don't see R22 and R12 ads willing to sell to buyers without certification.

Most likely the reason R410a is not sold in stores is because either there is no market for it, or (more likely) the manufacturers/distributors don't want you working on your own a/c, just like parts aren't sold via DIY channels either unless you go online.

Purchasing refrigerants is different than working on a unit. So maybe the intent of the government was if you cannot purchase the refrigerant it will deter the home owner from working on the system. IDK just a thought.

There is no restriction on the purchase of eqquipment. The restriction is on the purchase of the refrigerant itself and there is NO reward for reporting illegal sales or illegal venting. There never has been.

The Montreal Protocol was not implemented to deter homeowners from servicing their own equipment. It's an international treaty aimed at protecting the environment.

Tommy

 

[CWO4GUNNER]

There is no restriction on the purchase of eqquipment. The restriction is on the purchase of the refrigerant itself and there is NO reward for reporting illegal sales or illegal venting. There never has been.
The Montreal Protocol was not implemented to deter homeowners from servicing their own equipment. It's an international treaty aimed at protecting the environment.
Tommy

Sounds about right...I recall our instructor reiterating the warning of EPA agents lerking at a distance or competing contractors ready to drop a dime on any minor infringement of the law with fines of over $200k per infraction per day....I can't remember the exact amount of the fines but he made it feel like you almost have to ware a cape to cover your diminimus release lol. As a USCG 1st responder and incident commander, I never ever saw EPA on sceen for a release until the crisis was wrapped up.

 

[Gerald O]

There is no legal restriction on the purchasing of R410a refrigerant in the US. Some sellers might impose their own restrictions.

 

[radioactiveboyscout]

Wanted to give an update about my project. I finished the install of a Fujitsu 15RLS2 a few weeks back just in time for some low late October temperatures. It was a lot of work since I installed on the roof and had to work off a ladder the majority of the time but I'm super impressed with the units output. Night time temps have dropped into the low 30s and it heats my ~750 sq ft house with no problem.

 

[Guitarcrazy]

RKA and other with mini-splits, can you tell me if mine is operating correctly? I had a Fujitsu Halcyon dual zone installed in my new garage with upstairs apartment. So far unit seems to be working great, but I am confused about why it never seems to shut down. When I set min-heat mode on the remote I expected that if the temp was above the set point of 50 degrees, the unit would turn off. Instead, it seems to go into really slow fan mode just moving ambient air. Wouldn't it be better to turn off and then turn on when the temp reaches the set point? Is my unit set incorrectly? The installer wasn't sure whether it should shut off or stay on in low-speed mode. Thanks.

 

[radioactiveboyscout]

Instead, it seems to go into really slow fan mode just moving ambient air. Wouldn't it be better to turn off and then turn on when the temp reaches the set point? Is my unit set incorrectly? The installer wasn't sure whether it should shut off or stay on in low-speed mode. Thanks.

I don't have a dual unit but that is exactly how my unit behaves. The fan on the inner unit never quits while the unit is on. I'm guessing here but it reasons that it continually circulates air across the temp sensor so it can get an accurate read on the whole room temp and not just a single spot in the room. I also suspect that the energy needed to run the fan at low speed is very minimal. Again this is my speculation but I don't think your unit is acting odd based on mine doing the same. Hope this helps.

 

[RKA]

He's exactly right. Mine is close to 10 ft up, so I don't really hear it or feel the air when it's in that state. You may be in closer proximity and that might be why you noticed.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

RKA and other with mini-splits, can you tell me if mine is operating correctly? I had a Fujitsu Halcyon dual zone installed in my new garage with upstairs apartment. So far unit seems to be working great, but I am confused about why it never seems to shut down. When I set min-heat mode on the remote I expected that if the temp was above the set point of 50 degrees, the unit would turn off. Instead, it seems to go into really slow fan mode just moving ambient air. Wouldn't it be better to turn off and then turn on when the temp reaches the set point? Is my unit set incorrectly? The installer wasn't sure whether it should shut off or stay on in low-speed mode. Thanks.

That's normal.

Tommy

 

[Guitarcrazy]

Thanks for the replies.

 

[bzinsky]

I sent RKA a private message a few weeks ago for some help understand the fundamentals of the mini-split install. He called me far faster than most people would call to help a stranger, he spent about 20 minutes on the phone with me in the middle of the day, had no idea who I was as I had just joined the forum, and he had nothing to gain from it. Helped me out a lot. Alright guy if you ask me.

 

[radioactiveboyscout]

I wanted to give another update on my 15RLS2 install. This is the second year and beginning of the second winter we've been on the heat pump. It has performed flawlessly since it's install. This winter we've seen a run of a two or more week nights in the low 20's and the heat output was decent. Likely the heat output was good and it's just that the heat loss of my old leaky home was at the limit of what the heater could keep up with. I continue to be amazed at the efficiency of this unit. We had our highest electric bill last month since moving into our mountain home and it came in at a whopping $115. Wow that's cheap! Glad I switched from propane. I expect this unit will pay for itself in just a couple of seasons. That's it folks. If you're thinking of installing one of these units here's a big thumbs up. Take a look at the newest specs on the latest units, they're amazing.

And one more thing. My wife came to bug me while writing this and read this post. She said I sound like a shill. For the record I'm not a paid employee of any heat pump company just a big fan.

 

[RKA]

That's great! I'm extremely impressed as well. Mine is now on year 4, no issues with my Fujitsu whatsoever. Last winter I turned it on one morning when the local weather indicated it was 2F outside. It's rated down to 5F. It kicked on and within 5 mins started kicking out heat! Coil temps were around 100F according to my infrared thermometer. Normally they don't go any higher than 120F or so. I would not want to depend on it as the sole source of heat at these temps for the reasons radioactive mentioned, but it's performance at these temps is certainly jaw dropping for a heat pump!

 

[walrus]

That's great! I'm extremely impressed as well. Mine is now on year 4, no issues with my Fujitsu whatsoever. Last winter I turned it on one morning when the local weather indicated it was 2F outside. It's rated down to 5F. It kicked on and within 5 mins started kicking out heat! Coil temps were around 100F according to my infrared thermometer. Normally they don't go any higher than 120F or so. I would not want to depend on it as the sole source of heat at these temps for the reasons radioactive mentioned, but it's performance at these temps is certainly jaw dropping for a heat pump!

yes it will produce heat but COP goes down so does heat output(BTUs). Some of the newer ones will work to -15 supposedly. I crank up the woodstove when it gets below 20 as performance starts to suffer

 

[sst1]

Thanks so much for that info, as I was preparing for the EPA lic. no need now since it my own home!

 

[aone]

Me too. I prepared for the test and realized I did not need it. It does not make you certified.

I was surprised that the HVAC companies the offers the test refused me because I did not purchase the study materials from them. They really have a grip on this industry.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

The law exempts the homeowner from EPA certifications, you are only required to have the certifications if you are performing HVAC work for compensation. This exemption does not allow you to vent refrigerant. So enjoy DIYers, just don't do it for others.....and yes beer is compensation.

I know folks will have a fit about this, find the law and read it, not what you are taught but the actual law.

This is true, if you are working on your car with an R134a system. This is not true for your home AC with R22 or R410a. That is why small cans of R134a are sold in stores, but other refrigerants are not.

They are, however, sold all over eBay with "no certification required" posted prominently in the listing. If this was not true, someone would have reported them by now and collected their EPA reward money, and eBay would also pull them for fear of being fined. Notice you don't see R22 and R12 ads willing to sell to buyers without certification.

Most likely the reason R410a is not sold in stores is because either there is no market for it, or (more likely) the manufacturers/distributors don't want you working on your own a/c, just like parts aren't sold via DIY channels either unless you go online.

Here's the skinny-

NOBODY is "exempt" from the EPA Section 608 & 609 laws. NOBODY.

There is no separate certification required under EPA Section 608 for R410A, but you are required by Federal Law to have an EPA Section 608 Type II or Universal certification license to service HVAC equipment or handle any refrigerant including R-410A, but no license is legally necessary for it's purchase.

Similarly, you cannot service MVAC equipment or handle any refrigerant including R134A without EPA Section 609 certification, but you can purchase R134A


Basically the laws allow the purchase of R410A or R134A as long as you are not going to handle it, which means doing anything with it other than selling it to someone else or just looking at the pretty can.

Tommy

 

[rlitman]

...Similarly, you cannot service MVAC equipment or handle R134A without EPA Section 609 certification...

This is incorrect. You CAN service R134a MVAC equipment without a 609 cert, but only to perform service that does not require recovery (actually, you may even be allowed to do that, but need certified recovery equipment). Venting an R134a system is not allowed, even though release of R134a IS actually allowed, so long as it is not released intentionally (except for the de-minimum exception) from an air conditioning system. R134a is sold for air dusters, quick freeze sprayers, "air" powered horns and other things where it is perfectly legal to release. It is simply the label "refrigerant" that makes it unlawful to release.

See what the EPA has to say about it here (emphasis mine):
https://www.epa.gov/mvac/epa-regulatory-requirements-motor-vehicle-ac-system-servicing

Technicians who repair or service MVAC systems for consideration (e.g., payment or bartering) must be trained and certified under section 609 ...

 

[LS6 Tommy]

This is incorrect. You CAN service R134a MVAC equipment without a 609 cert, but only to perform service that does not require recovery (actually, you may even be allowed to do that, but need certified recovery equipment). Venting an R134a system is not allowed, even though release of R134a IS actually allowed, so long as it is not released intentionally (except for the de-minimum exception) from an air conditioning system. R134a is sold for air dusters, quick freeze sprayers, "air" powered horns and other things where it is perfectly legal to release. It is simply the label "refrigerant" that makes it unlawful to release.

See what the EPA has to say about it here (emphasis mine):
https://www.epa.gov/mvac/epa-regulatory-requirements-motor-vehicle-ac-system-servicing

Technicians who repair or service MVAC systems for consideration (e.g., payment or bartering) must be trained and certified under section 609 ...

OK, cool! I see they updated Sec 609 with the "consideration" thing, but that is ONLY for 134A. That being said, when speaking of the "for consideration" guys, the EPA definition of the term "handle" covers doing ANYTHING on an MVAC with R134a that involves breaking the shipping seal on a cylinder, or even just hooking up gauges to a charged system and no uncertified person can service an R12 MVAC system as they cannot legally handle or purchase that refrigerant at all. In a nutshell, for MVAC, if you're not Sec. 609, all you can do is work on a previously legally recovered system, assemble/install a brand new system before it is charged or work on electrical or mechanical components that are not involving the refrigerant circuit.

I didn't even think to bring up the legality of using R134A as a propellant, so I have no argument on the part of my incorrect statement where I said you can't do anything except sell it or look at the pretty can.

Tommy

 

[rlitman]

OK, cool! I see they updated Sec 609 with the "consideration" thing, but that is ONLY for 134A. That being said, when speaking of the "for consideration" guys, the EPA definition of the term "handle" covers doing ANYTHING on an MVAC with R134a that involves breaking the shipping seal on a cylinder, or even just hooking up gauges to a charged system and no uncertified person can service an R12 MVAC system as they cannot legally handle or purchase that refrigerant at all. In a nutshell, for MVAC, if you're not Sec. 609, all you can do is work on a previously legally recovered system, assemble/install a brand new system before it is charged or work on electrical or mechanical components that are not involving the refrigerant circuit.

I didn't even think to bring up the legality of using R134A as a propellant, so I have no argument on the part of my incorrect statement where I said you can't do anything except sell it or look at the pretty can.

Tommy

Correct. R12 is forbidden without a license. For good reason.

As for what someone without a 609 license can do on an R134a system, it's a little broader than that. You could for example add refrigerant to a system that leaked out completely (say from a corroded evaporator, or stone damaged condensor, or from cracking hoses), but only enough to facilitate leak detection. Once you've repaired the leak, you could evacuate and then legally charge the system (since there was nothing to recover). I do not believe you are allowed to top off a leaking system, though we all know that the auto parts stores are allowed to sell cans with low pressure port adapters for just this purpose. I'm not sure if you can recover a system yourself, but I believe you should be able to. Technically an amateur would also need to use EPA certified recovery equipment, but only commercial shops have the requirement to provide proof of that certification. Makes for another strange loophole.

I saw some comments on the EPA site about CO2, though I have never seen that in a vehicle (but I know it is out there). That too would be open to amateur repair.

I know you didn't mention use of refrigerant gasses as propellants. I was just pointing out how nuts the law can be. Technically, a gardener cannot legally pour vinegar on a weed to kill it (even if they held a pesticide applicator's license). It would be an illegal off-label use of a pesticide.

 

[Artfrombama]

Installed a Fujitsu 24K BTU system in my house ten months ago and regret not getting a dual zone for the back part of my house. I still may do this in a year or so.
First winter and has worked great. Cooled last Summer like a dream.

OK, love the mini split in the front part of the house now I want to put an air handler in the back part of the house (bedrooms).
Is it possible to use two air handlers with one compressor? Like only use one air handler at a time?

 

[walrus]

OK, love the mini split in the front part of the house now I want to put an air handler in the back part of the house (bedrooms).
Is it possible to use two air handlers with one compressor? Like only use one air handler at a time?

Yes you can get multizone units, efficiency drops and its almost the same price as getting multiple units.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Correct. R12 is forbidden without a license. For good reason.

As for what someone without a 609 license can do on an R134a system, it's a little broader than that. You could for example add refrigerant to a system that leaked out completely (say from a corroded evaporator, or stone damaged condensor, or from cracking hoses), but only enough to facilitate leak detection.

Certified or not, you can't use straight 134A to leak check. It's not considered a "de minimis" release. It's supposed to be added to a dehydrated nitrogen charge to allow the use of electronic leak detection equipment.

That being said, uncertified (and many certified) people just do whatever they like. It's only illegal when you get caught.


Tommy