Wakefield
Well-known member
While looking at the Snap on site hoping to see the new breaker bar I notice that there is a 10(!) point socket that apparently fits something on a Honda--I guess 12 point and 6 point and 8 point aren't good enough?
Another obscure strange fastener? Why?
- Thread starter Wakefield
- Start date
General Geoff
Well-known member
Typically, new and incompatible fasteners are intentionally used to keep end users from disassembling whatever the fastener is holding together. This is widely evident in modern small electronics devices like nintendo game systems, which use triwing fasteners.
It doesn't seem like something Honda would do, though.
It doesn't seem like something Honda would do, though.
tjmonsen5
Well-known member
I believe the 10 point bolts have been used on clutch pressure plates and torque converters for dodge for a few years now? Probably to stop people from dissasembling a throw away part.
devoncoolman
Well-known member
I belive that socket is for the seat track and or seat belt pretensioner. Its to avoid users from dissasembling something they have no need or reason to remove. Its to try and prevent lawsuits.
There is the problem. It is to prevent people from removing something that MOST people have no need or reason to remove. Then when it brakes and needs to be replaced, the DIY guy goes to his local tool store and wants to get the correct socket but they don't carry it because there isn't enough demand. So now you have to find a tool truck and hope they have it or go online and order the tool. All the while you are stuck not fixing your broken car.
I've had several legitimate reasons to remove both my seats and my seat belts from my various cars over time. If I had to buy another set of sockets to do so I guarantee you I would be swearing up a storm.
It's nothing new. My 23 year old BMW 535i uses internal allen type 5 point bolts on the
ABS hydraulic module. I would agree that these bespoke fasteners are generally
used on assemblies that should only be taken apart by Uber specialists.
If, however, I find 10 point bolts holding my wheels on... That would be when
I start having words.... and they would be very colourful ones...
ABS hydraulic module. I would agree that these bespoke fasteners are generally
used on assemblies that should only be taken apart by Uber specialists.
If, however, I find 10 point bolts holding my wheels on... That would be when
I start having words.... and they would be very colourful ones...
warmpancakes
Well-known member
just had to rebuild a Hyd cylinder it used interal 10 point , allen wrench made quick work of them
Murphy4570
Well-known member
Last time I had to remove seat belts, I was installing a new carpet on a '92 Mustang. It used T55 Torx bolts I believe.
Using proprietary fasteners is asinine, IMO. If someone wants to disassemble something, they WILL.
Using proprietary fasteners is asinine, IMO. If someone wants to disassemble something, they WILL.
metaleltr
Well-known member
http://www.vehicleservicepros.com/p...ols-10-point-mistubishi-dodge-socket-no-v10pt
If you have 10 point you wont the need 5 point for utilities.
devoncoolman
Well-known member
Honestly it ***** because its one more tool i have to buy to do my job. But i dont blame the manufactures for doing this. Because people these days are so sue happy. And these pos people file b/s lawsuits and it was clearly their fault but they still win and get millions for their stupidity. Using propritary fasteners just gives the manufacturer more ammo if somebody tampers with the unit and kills someone and somebody descides to sue over it.
wafrederick
Well-known member
It is to prevent theft too,the Honda seat tracks are not cheap at all and get stolen from 2 Honda models.
NHBandit
Well-known member
Yeah it's nothing new. My first exposure to tamper proof Torx was several years ago when working in an auto salvage yard. Mostly used back then on air bag components. I took apart a bunch of stuff by simply knocking the pin out of the center of the bolt with a punch & using regular Torx sockets before I finally broke down & bought a set of tamper proof sockets.
You're talking about torx right?
If you ever plan on owning a BMW and doing DIY then a wide set of both torx and e-torx is a wise investment. Same goes for any VW/Audi/Merc..hell just about every modern car I guess. From what I've seen torx and torx plus can't really even be considered a specialty fastener anymore. They're everywhere when it comes to automotive.
No.... Not torx. I am well and truly loaded with torx and e-torx and tamper torx stuff.
They are a five sided pentagon shaped internal fasterner. Basically an allen head bolt
but instead of a six sided hex, they are a five sided pentagon. weirdest fastener I have
ever seen. They really didn't want people poking about in there.
I can validate that these exist. We had some computer chassis mounts that used these and someone threw away all of the allen keys that the mounts came with. My friend had to dig through a dumpster to find a few so we could remove one or two PCs that were DOA. I looked all over and couldn't find a US supplier for these. Apparently, in the UK they are used as antitheft fasteners for bicycles or something.
On another note... what the hell is a torx plus ?
ChevyEFI
Well-known member
Torx Plus has a different tooth shape / profile.
If you're familiar with a T47 seatbelt bolt, you've seen the more "daisy" than "star" shape of it.
My experience with Plus was unfortunately due to bolts installed by OEM with thread lock and a "loose" female opening on the bolthead. I was able to tap in a plus where a regular torx should have worked but failed.
Long story short? Apex bit inserts are awesome and solved that problem in the long run.
jjjrmx5
Well-known member
Yep.
Ford uses them on thier truck bed-to-frame-rail fasteners and Chevy for seat belt and SRS componets.
Just another way to thwart "average Joe's" from accessing or reparing/replacing components.
The std. Torx patent ran out some time ago and Torx Plus just keeps the mfgr. and the Torx name and exclusivity still in the game.
Happens all the time.
This thread has gone off track horribly... sorry OP.
That being said, do the new torx plus fasteners have a better life span where the tool is concerned ? I know that BMW/Benz switched to torx from allen because they got a significantly longer life out of the tool itself over the course of large scale production.
That being said, do the new torx plus fasteners have a better life span where the tool is concerned ? I know that BMW/Benz switched to torx from allen because they got a significantly longer life out of the tool itself over the course of large scale production.
ChevyEFI
Well-known member
T-Plus should have better tool life; the failure point on torx bolts is usually the tool. The teeth are simply under-sized for stuck fasteners; the torque twists the tool or breaks teeth off it.
I would prefer regular external hex bolt heads over Torx-Plus over Allen if it were up to me. But Germans like Allen so whatever.
I think Snap-On and other truck brands team up with the auto manufacturers just to come up with specialized fasteners just so you HAVE to buy their tools. Yup.
I've ran across a few specialty fasteners on my vehicles. I use the tools I have to remove it, then run to the hardware store to match the threads up with something more common (standard hex, allen, etc...)
I've ran across a few specialty fasteners on my vehicles. I use the tools I have to remove it, then run to the hardware store to match the threads up with something more common (standard hex, allen, etc...)
S2000 and what else?
The 8th Gens and the EP's have popular seats, but not S2K popular... And ITR Recaros... People take the whole ITR.
For you non-Honda guys:
8th Gen = 2005-2011 Civic, Si has "nice" seats
EP = 2001-2005 Honda Civic Si, also has "nice" seats
S2K = S2000. Cut the top and open and you have seats.
ITR = Acura Integra Type-R. Holy grail of the Honda world.
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sorry, Rusty i call ********.....
you can't power FEED Torx fasteners out of a Syntron ******** bowl, for rapid installation on an assembly line
Allen head and hex head fasteners feed perfectly in automated wrenches
Torxes don't, the end is too square and the features require almost perfect alignment
that aside, the life of the tool tip doesn't matter when the more expensive tool slows the entire assembly line down
Torx wrenches are individually headed.....you can buy Allen wrench stock by the reel (mile)
and yes, i worked in the installation tools section of the Engineering Department of HiShear Corp, an aerospace fastener company
the Chief Engineer's job is to make sure stupid stuff doesn't get designed/built.....
obviously they don't do their job very well
Ign
Well-known member
This! Ford used tamper-proof Torx on '92+ Ford Broncos because of the third brake light (CHMSL). And how many '92+ Broncos do you see running around *******?
The efforts are futile, as stated before if someone wants to remove something, they will. And in my case, I'll replace with a more standard fastener if at all possible.
JB Enterprise
Member
Funny but kind of relevent, a buddy called me over to his shop to look at a fastener that he had never seen before, I took a look at it and laughed, I asked him if it was in the 50's he said yes, so i went to my toolbox and got my clutch driver set so he coud finish the job. Just goes to show manufacturers have been doing this for awhile.
Cheers
Justin B.
Cheers
Justin B.
I ran into this a couple of days ago trying to remove a ABS hydraulic module. It drove me up a wall trying to figure out what kind of fastener it was.It's nothing new. My 23 year old BMW 535i uses internal allen type 5 point bolts on the
ABS hydraulic module. I would agree that these bespoke fasteners are generally
used on assemblies that should only be taken apart by Uber specialists.
If, however, I find 10 point bolts holding my wheels on... That would be when
I start having words.... and they would be very colourful ones...
I ran into a fastener on an old SAAB ignition switch bracket that I've never seen before or after, and can't find **** on the internet about it. They were nuts with three lobes, looked like the end of a Roots blower impeller.
I got them out by taking a deep 10mm socket and grinding out three sides, leaving three sides to go in between the lobes.
I got them out by taking a deep 10mm socket and grinding out three sides, leaving three sides to go in between the lobes.
Flatintoone
Well-known member
On the Honda seats, is it really an anti-theft measure or more of an anti-tamper feature to keep people out of the pretensioners? I have a hard time believing a manufacturer would spend money on preventing theft of seats...
Lotek
Well-known member
I have always felt that some changes made by mfgs were made soley to justify some engineer's paycheck. Oddball bolt heads, O2 sensors with shields that require a specific socket on Aveos and Hyundais, peanut sparkplugs and midget fuel line service port fittings on Sparks, Fuel line disconnects that take 2 hands in areas where one hand won't fit. You can't make something foolproof, fools are so ingenious.
wafrederick
Well-known member
Honda Odysseys and Pilots too.The seat tracks are known for going bad and they are not cheap,Highest price is $800.00 a piece from Honda.Snap On does sell the sockets for these, DPTM8 and DPTM10.Found out on Snap On's facebook page.One person said it was for theft issues. More info on these sockets claiming saving time too. http://www.vehicleservicepros.com/p...mm-and-10mm-10-point-sockets-nos-dptm8-dptm10
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jjjrmx5
Well-known member
Hahahahahahaha.
Anti-theft for seats???????.
Hahahahahahaha.
No.
Not a chance.
But Honda fanbois always love to feel special like that "unique" snowflake.
SRS, seat belt reels and seat systems often use special headed fasteners to keep liablility low and ensure the system stays in place and in tact for accidents.
It's a legal thing and CERTAINLY not a theft issue.
People stealing S2K seats and Civic Si seats. Ha.
They're NOT $2000 Recaro CF racing seats folks.