Another Porcelain Tile Floor

[dmeadow]

Alright, after all the praise singing for porcelain tiles, I decided to see if it would work for me.

I found some tile that will fit the bill for about $0.81 per square foot.

The garage is 1178 sq ft, so it is a fairly big job, one too big to take on myself, particularly since I have never tiled before.

This is a brand new house, so there is not a lot of prep that would need to be done for tile. It is basically just a big, flat square, so not a lot of cutting, either.

I'm getting some quotes and the first one was $2.75 per square foot ($3240), including thinset, but not the grout. He wants another $3.00 per square foot to do about six inches up either side to where the sheetrock starts and the concrete ends (about 80 linear feet or $240).

Although I'm buying the grout, he added a charge of $400 to "mix sealant into the grout" which I can't imagine is necessary, since I can seal the grout later pretty easily.

So, I'm at a total of about $5000, including the tile purchase (including waste), taxes, grout, labor, everything, or about $4.24 per square foot. Maybe not a bad price for tile, but I can have someone else install epoxy for about $3.65 per square foot, which is now looking more attractive. Heck, I could install the epoxy myself in a few days (less work than tile) for probably about ~$2400 in materials.

I thought I could get the tile labor between $1.50 to $2.00 per square foot here in the Houston area, but maybe I'm dreaming. Can anyone else give me an idea as to what would be a reasonable rate? I'm getting a couple more quotes, but I'm beginning to think I'm wasting my time going down this road.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

No pictures. Did this really happen?

 

[dmeadow]

No pictures. Did this really happen?

Pictures of what? Nothing has happened, yet.

 

[4everRS]

It is titled and sort of written like you did something.

Obviously your still deceiding what to do.

 

[bdamico]

Alright, after all the praise singing for porcelain tiles, I decided to see if it would work for me.

I found some tile that will fit the bill for about $0.81 per square foot.

The garage is 1178 sq ft, so it is a fairly big job, one too big to take on myself, particularly since I have never tiled before.

This is a brand new house, so there is not a lot of prep that would need to be done for tile. It is basically just a big, flat square, so not a lot of cutting, either.

I'm getting some quotes and the first one was $2.75 per square foot ($3240), including thinset, but not the grout. He wants another $3.00 per square foot to do about six inches up either side to where the sheetrock starts and the concrete ends (about 80 linear feet or $240).

Although I'm buying the grout, he added a charge of $400 to "mix sealant into the grout" which I can't imagine is necessary, since I can seal the grout later pretty easily.

So, I'm at a total of about $5000, including the tile purchase (including waste), taxes, grout, labor, everything, or about $4.24 per square foot. Maybe not a bad price for tile, but I can have someone else install epoxy for about $3.65 per square foot, which is now looking more attractive. Heck, I could install the epoxy myself in a few days (less work than tile) for probably about ~$2400 in materials.

I thought I could get the tile labor between $1.50 to $2.00 per square foot here in the Houston area, but maybe I'm dreaming. Can anyone else give me an idea as to what would be a reasonable rate? I'm getting a couple more quotes, but I'm beginning to think I'm wasting my time going down this road.

check craigslist. i paid around that for labor ($1.50 ish with the baseboards) but you're basically looking at the bottom of the barrel type people. If you can put up with the hassle, should be a potential labor rate.

 

[SapesOfIndia]

My recommendation is to pick the products & materials yourself and that way you can control quality of materials. Just take quotes for the labor. Labor will account for about 50% of the total cost. Do all the planning. Review it with friendly people here and on John Bridge tile forum.

I highly recommend epoxy grout. That stuff hardens like a rock. You will need less of it for smaller grout lines. I used 1/8".

See my thread in the signature for my very recent install. I have been fortunate to watch the installation and ensure install quality as well.

 

[Dakota00]

I highly recommend epoxy grout. That stuff hardens like a rock. You will need less of it for smaller grout lines. I used 1/8".

Which will put the labor and material cost through the roof. The OP wants the floor done as cheap as possible, you pay for what you get.

 

[Fredartic]

Well, for me I would go at Home Depot, take a workshop on how to tile floors or check some video on youtube and I would buy knee's protector or cushion for knees and I would tell to myself, I can do it like anyone can do it! I would buy a good tiles saw and than I will do it by myself! The good thing with tiles is that you can do a little at a time... Just an idea... Good luck!

 

[BRIANBB]

I think a guy at work here paid $1 a foot. I'll ask for the guys info.

 

[6t7gto]

When I was planning my floor I knew of a guy that was out of work.
He came to my house and bragged he could do 600 sq.ft. a day.
My garage is 1200 sq.ft.
I asked him how much to do my garage and he said $3.50 @ sq.ft. That's for 2 men.
I supply all the material.
No way.
I did it myself for a total of about $1.00 sq.ft. Tile, thinset and grout.
Tile was on sale @ $.54 sq.ft.
Tile has been installed for 5 years now.

 

[dmeadow]

I think a guy at work here paid $1 a foot. I'll ask for the guys info.

That would be great! Thank you.

 

[dmeadow]

When I was planning my floor I knew of a guy that was out of work.
He came to my house and bragged he could do 600 sq.ft. a day.
My garage is 1200 sq.ft.
I asked him how much to do my garage and he said $3.50 @ sq.ft. That's for 2 men.
I supply all the material.
No way.
I did it myself for a total of about $1.00 sq.ft. Tile, thinset and grout.
Tile was on sale @ $.54 sq.ft.
Tile has been installed for 5 years now.

How long did it take you? I'm not afraid of DIY, I just don't have a lot of time.

 

[SapesOfIndia]

If you do it yourself get 12" tiles instead of larger tiles.
I am able to lay 12" tiles without much problems but 18" wasn't easy for me (first timer). With 18" I was able to lay max 35 sq ft a half day and that would take lot of days to lay tiles, and then the mixing, cleaning every day you do tiling.

Pro tiler did 425 sq ft in a day but he had people for him cutting tiles, mixing thinset, back buttering tiles, cleaning etc. This is just my experience but others on this board have done a great job for DIYers.

 

[dmeadow]

With 18" I was able to lay max 35 sq ft a half day and that would take lot of days to lay tiles, and then the mixing, cleaning every day you do tiling.

That's kinda what I thought. The tiles I'm looking at are 20x20, so it would take me a month of Sundays trying to lay them myself. And this is while I'm trying to move into a new house with all that entails!

Re: Craigslist-- there are a couple of guys that advertise, but I'm loathe to get involved with anyone that I don't have a good reference for. I'm not interested in funding somebody's meth habit!

 

[bdamico]

That's kinda what I thought. The tiles I'm looking at are 20x20, so it would take me a month of Sundays trying to lay them myself. And this is while I'm trying to move into a new house with all that entails!

Re: Craigslist-- there are a couple of guys that advertise, but I'm loathe to get involved with anyone that I don't have a good reference for. I'm not interested in funding somebody's meth habit!

that's kind silly. craigslist has come a long way and a lot of people advertise there for services as they would any other medium. the guys I see advertising down here for things like tile install and residential tint advertise lots of other places. ebay used to have the same stigma but has come leaps and bounds. for instance, many car dealers advertise their new and used cars there as they would any other outlet. in any event, the reality is at a buck or so a sq ft, you're not going to get a mona lisa--you're looking at subs looking to make a little extra on the side. you're gonna find guys that cut corners on things like insurance for instance.

edit -- and i went with a rec from a general contractor and got a total flake sub -- he got the job done cheap but was a pain in the *** -- so you never know what you're going to get anyway.

 

[SapesOfIndia]

I found my installer on Craigslist.
I was wary when I started looking for one but eventually it all went very well. I paid as the work got completed.
Get estimates from ones that provide free estimates. You will know from your conversation if it is going to go uphill or downhill.

 

[BRIANBB]

Sent you a PM with the contact info. Let us know how it works out. IMO doing it yourself should not take more than a couple of days for the install then another couple of days for the grout and cleanup.

 

[dmeadow]

Sent you a PM with the contact info. Let us know how it works out. IMO doing it yourself should not take more than a couple of days for the install then another couple of days for the grout and cleanup.

Thanks, Brian. I'll give that contact a call. I've got another guy out there this morning that is going to give me a quote, as well.

 

[Dakota00]

IMO doing it yourself should not take more than a couple of days for the install then another couple of days for the grout and cleanup.

Really.... So a single person with NO experience is going to mix the thinset, apply the thinset, back butter the tiles, set the tiles, clean the tiles and have no problems doing 600sq.ft a day properly? That's not including removing tiles from the boxes and placing them in reachable spots to lay or even cutting the tiles!!

Yeah, sure....

 

[SapesOfIndia]

Really.... So a single person with NO experience is going to mix the thinset, apply the thinset, back butter the tiles, set the tiles, clean the tiles and have no problems doing 600sq.ft a day properly? That's not including removing tiles from the boxes and placing them in reachable spots to lay or even cutting the tiles!!

Yeah, sure....

To add to that...lifting tiles from time to time and make sure there is 100% coverage, lift tiles and add additional mortar if floor is not level, wonder about how previously laid tiles now moved and try to push them back in their place.

An ambulance must be called in advance if a newb if planning to lay 600sq ft in a day. Back may get detached from the body.

To give you a context...I had 5 people for 2 full days and two people for half day to do 600 sq ft. I know not everyone was at their 100% and only one person was laying the tile but if pros take that much time then a newb should multiply all that by at least 2.

 

[swiss]

Pros only take that much time when they are being watched!

 

[mayday0017]

Standard tile layer labor rate in Houston is $100-$150 per day. If you are paying more then that you are paying to much.... I had real hardwood floors installed here in Houston and only paid $150/day, there is PLENTY of cheap labor to be had here!

 

[wesalexleft]

My new favorite saying...Good, Fast, Cheap...pick two. You can save good money if you shop around, are in no hurry and find someone supplementing their income during nights and weekends. If you want it done right away, and with quality, you'll pay for that. I just completed 400 sq/ft myself, and did it to the best of my ability. It took me the better part of three weeks of nights and weekends. I saved some money and am proud to say I did it. However, you wouldn't get me to touch that for $150.00/day at 8 hours per day as it's actually work. If you can find that, you're not hiring a legal or a professional in my opinion which means results may vary.

 

[duneslider]

Seriously, anyone that will lay that tile for 150 a day or 1-1.50 a foot would have me seriously questioning them. I know good tile setters in texas and I know good setters in most areas of the country and you aren't going to get a good licensed and insured contractor for that kind of money. We do all this BS talk on here about only buying $300 dollar american made ratchets to put in our $10000 american made tool boxes but then we are cool hiring illegal questionable labor to do work for us?

This is why I sold my business and don't do flooring anymore. I got tired of having to justify why I was charging more than the other guy. Ask me how many call backs I had for problems with my work, zero in 15 years. Never an unsatisfied client, never a problem with the quality of work, and never a job for 1.50 a foot either. I made a good living replacing 1.50 a foot floors. Tile has always been a premium floor option and it should be at a premium price. You get what you pay for.

Sorry for the rant but come on guys, can you even live out of the back of a car for 100 a day? You expect a guy making $100 a day to have thousands of dollars worth of tools, insurance, and the ability to do a good job?

 

[RallyRoad]

Seriously, anyone that will lay that tile for 150 a day or 1-1.50 a foot would have me seriously questioning them. I know good tile setters in texas and I know good setters in most areas of the country and you aren't going to get a good licensed and insured contractor for that kind of money. We do all this BS talk on here about only buying $300 dollar american made ratchets to put in our $10000 american made tool boxes but then we are cool hiring illegal questionable labor to do work for us?

This is why I sold my business and don't do flooring anymore. I got tired of having to justify why I was charging more than the other guy. Ask me how many call backs I had for problems with my work, zero in 15 years. Never an unsatisfied client, never a problem with the quality of work, and never a job for 1.50 a foot either. I made a good living replacing 1.50 a foot floors. Tile has always been a premium floor option and it should be at a premium price. You get what you pay for.

Sorry for the rant but come on guys, can you even live out of the back of a car for 100 a day? You expect a guy making $100 a day to have thousands of dollars worth of tools, insurance, and the ability to do a good job?

I couldn't find the "LIKE" button here, so I'll just say that I whole heartedly agree with you!

 

[uppster]

Seriously, anyone that will lay that tile for 150 a day or 1-1.50 a foot would have me seriously questioning them. I know good tile setters in texas and I know good setters in most areas of the country and you aren't going to get a good licensed and insured contractor for that kind of money. We do all this BS talk on here about only buying $300 dollar american made ratchets to put in our $10000 american made tool boxes but then we are cool hiring illegal questionable labor to do work for us?

This is why I sold my business and don't do flooring anymore. I got tired of having to justify why I was charging more than the other guy. Ask me how many call backs I had for problems with my work, zero in 15 years. Never an unsatisfied client, never a problem with the quality of work, and never a job for 1.50 a foot either. I made a good living replacing 1.50 a foot floors. Tile has always been a premium floor option and it should be at a premium price. You get what you pay for.

Sorry for the rant but come on guys, can you even live out of the back of a car for 100 a day? You expect a guy making $100 a day to have thousands of dollars worth of tools, insurance, and the ability to do a good job?

From one floor installer to another.....AMEN

 

[Dakota00]

Well said duneslider!!

The work I do is mostly high end jobs, thankfully those bottom feeders don't affect me. Over here in my area, a good professional tile setters can make a great living. I can't believe the cheap labor rates you guys have in the States, even if they are illegals. If I had to compete with those low rates, or justify my rates I'd be looking for different type of work.

Like I said in the beginning of this thread. You get what you paid for, it's that simple!!

 

[mayday0017]

Just want to start off saying I typically agree that you get what you pay for... Not always, but most of the time...

So lets think about that $150/day

$150cash per day times a 5 day work week (they work weekends too but we wil go low) is $750wk multiply that by 1.2 (20%) to add taxes that weren't paid back in. We are now at $900/wk. Multiply that by 52 wks we are at $46,800 per year they are making off the rate of $150/day.

Quick version: 150day x 5days = $750 x 1.2(tax) = $900wk x 52wks = $46,800yr

So as mentioned above people can't live off $150/day.... $46,800 a year is EASY to live off of, plus these guys normally work weekends and often their work doesn't take a full day so they squeeze even more $$.

Now I'm not sure why you would want to pay more then $150/day to have flooring installed. Yes the person doesn't have insurance but who really cares, there is little risk for you or them involved. Well maybe you are worried about the quality of work... I can teach a highschool kid how to remove, install, and deal with most common problems in a day. So now we have the requirements to be a good installer, a kid about 18ish years old with a free day to listen, help, & learn. This kid can now make more then most people do their first year out of college, only making $150/day.

I guess my point is how much do you think it is worth $300/day? You really think a tile layer should make $100k a year doing a job that can be taught in a few hours? Everyone on here says you can do it yourself and many people on here have with great results. Yes some flooring can be more difficult, or you can run into situations where the person wants an exotic design or something very specific. These situations require someone with a little more experiance in dealing with the situation. You will most likely pay extra for that person, but many of these $150/day guys have done 1,000's of jobs and can do that exotic work as well no problem.

I guess my point is, maybe you should think about that $150/day ($47k yr) and think about what you make and what your time is worth. You might find that guy makes more then or close to what you do. I personally can't justify paying someone 100k a year to install tile. Just seems foolish.... Many familys in America live off that same $150day no problem.....

Anyways the whole point is $150/day isn't a ton of money, but is a good living for someone with no degree, and no boss to put up with.

 

[duneslider]

Wow! So glad I sold my business. Still trying to figure out how 150 magically turns into 180 because the bottom feeder isn't paying taxes? So, you pay me 150 under the table and it turns into 180 when I slip it in my pocket? Sign me up for whatever that is! I can't even consistently make 20% on the stock market.

So, 150 a day take home is 39000 a year. Kind of ***** if you ask me. Break my back for pennies. Pay all my own medical insurance, if I could afford it. Have not workers comp if I get hurt. I have to replace tools as they wear out. Etc. Etc.

I can't even believe you are promoting using illegal workers who don't pay taxes. No wonder our country is so screwed up! Its people like you, hiring dishonest people that create the mess we have. Oh, sure, you are just one person and one little old tile guy isn't gonna screw up the economy. Unfortunately, there are thousands of them.

Insurance not needed? What happens if he leaves the hose running and floods your house, or the neighbors. Or his cheap harbor freight saw shorts out and burns your house down, or the neighbor kid comes over and plays with his grinder while he isn't watching and cuts up his leg? You gonna pay for all that? What about when the fly by night bum steals your tools and disappears while you are inside sipping your coke watching tv?

I wish I would have been able to find a helper that could have been trained in a couple hours! I would be lucky to get a helper to mix a bucket of mud right after a whole summer. Sure, every now and then I would run into a kid that had a little construction experience and he would pick it up pretty quick but those were few and far between.

Anybody can do anything their self. Nothing wrong with that. I can guarantee after a couple hours you CANNOT do it as good, or as fast as me! I spent years as an apprentice learning a trade, not a couple hours at the class at home depot. I have spent hours and thousands of posts helping people help themselves, I am all for that, I do it on here too.

I don't know the rules in Texas, I am guessing they don't require tile guys to be licensed but I am pretty sure they have to be set up as a business, pay taxes, and carry liability insurance. If you hire someone who doesn't fit that bill you and they are breaking the law.

Off my soap box now.

 

[bdamico]

IBTL -- first for flooring forum!

 

[duneslider]

Yeah, this thread was pretty much destroyed.

 

[mayday0017]

You are pretty close Duneslider... 150cash turns into 180 taxable... If someone MAKES 80k a year they don't have 80k in their pocket they get taxed, so the 20% converted it back to what we talk about whenever people talk about how much they make, which is their TAXABLE income.

Also I didn't say it is good or bad to hire people who arn't legal, just would guess most of them arn't that are here in Houston doing this work.

All of that being said the whole point is, if you live in Houston the day rate for the people who do it is $150/day which is the same as a person who is a high paid teacher at 46,800 a year. IF you are paying over $150/day in any part of the country you could do better white/black/hispanic legal/illigal doesn't matter.... $15+ an hour is a lot to be paying for a laborer for installing tile in your garage!

 

[gte718p]

Let look at this another way. Min wage were I live is $7.45. At $1.00 a square foot you need to lay 8 12x12 tiles in an hour to beat min wage. Min wage is not idea, but at $1 a foot your doing better then working at McDonalds.

I'm not saying a a killed craftsman is not worth the money they make. I've always done my own tile work. My parent had a skilled guy do their house. It's beautiful, offset paterns perfectly, and diagonals that are perfectly straight. It took some skill.

I made $100 dollars a day for the first two years I worked. I wasn't driving a Porsche but I lived comfortably. The median wage in the US is only 33k. Just perspective.


Keep looking and find a $1.50 guy to do a basic patern in the garage and don't feel bad about it.

 

[dmeadow]

Yeah, this thread was pretty much destroyed.

Yeah. Thanks.

I'm not trying to promote indentured servitude or illegal immigration here, just trying to get some work done at a reasonable cost. Perhaps by cutting out the contractor slavemasters and putting my money directly in the hands of the downtrodden and oppressed workers. Sheesh.

FWIW, the local Lowes will install for $1.99 per square foot if you buy tile and grout from them, although I couldn't find a tile there that suits my purpose. My quotes (all from what appear to be from legit businesses) have ranged from $2.25 to $4.75.

I'm buying the tile next week. I'll start a new thread to show the progress, since this one seems to have gone off the rails.

 

[Angelfire]

Dune, couldn't agree with you more. And the thought that a kid could learn to lay tile in a day is on par with a skilled craftsman? Ludicrous. I guess it all comes down to ones expectations. If you're happy with uneven grout lines, non level tiles, crappy cuts, cracked tiles down the road,etc, then go hire the kid that trained for a day. Personally, I have higher standards. As for hiring Lowes or HD to do it, I'd be leery. They are simply sending the lowest cost contractor they could find to your house. I've seen some of the work they've done and its atrocious. So be sure to view as much of their work as possible before signing them up.

 

[Consaka]

Interesting! So just because he is an "illegal immigrant" he is also dishonest? Sorry but most of those guys work harder than anyone I know. All they want is enough to live on and send a little back to their relatives who think a 100 bucks is a huge amount of money. Meh I got nothing against those guys. With a little time and experience many of them turn into first rate craftsmen.

What I do have a problem with is the drugs coming over the border and those peddling those drugs. Fortunately though the skin color may be the same they are a different type of people.

I agree when it comes to insurance you are taking your chances. I am self employed and guess how much health insurance I can afford? nada. While I make a tiny bit more than the suggested 40k a year it doesn't pay for much insurance or expensive speedy craftsmen. If I had to choose between supporting you and your brand new cars and 400k house, or a 150 dollar a day worker, or doing it myself what do you think I'm going to do?
option one will never happen if I cant afford you. So right there you haven't lost a thing but my quality of life hasn't gone up either. Option two I cant really afford either but I might be able to on a good year with some savings. Most likely it will be just me but some of these guys actually have more experience than me on projects like this. So if I did hire them I would be working right alongside them.

Now if my rich aunt wants me to coordinate a flooring project to get done while she is on a cruise I probably would give you a call and cross my fingers and kiss a clover that you are actually as good as you think you are.

Sadly there is another reason I usually do stuff myself. And that is because on almost every occasion when I have had professional craftsman come do work it has ended up subpar. I do like a job done right even if it takes me 4 times longer to do it right myself. I always used licensed and bonded craftsman for doing work on my grandmothers houses.

Now I got wood floors that don't touch the subflooring and squeak and sag because the installer didn't level the concrete slab.
I found 2x4s behind casings that didn't go all the way to the header.
I have an outside door with the hinges set twice to deep in the casing then they are supposed to be and yes the door does hit the casing and tweak the hinge everytime the door is shut.
I got door casings that are fat in the middle and narrow top and bottom. I got some casings 1/2 narrow at just the bottom with doors that had to be custom cut crooked to fit.
Short list of all the jobs done by expensive professionals. Not counting the tile work or the mason work on another house.

In short my decision doesn't hurt you in the slightest and it shows your argument to be somewhat weak. It also shows that not all expensive professionals do all that great of a job despite their "speed". My soapbox is discrimination. I have no tolerance for it.
Cheers on retirement though.
Here is your Tide box back.

Wow! So glad I sold my business. Still trying to figure out how 150 magically turns into 180 because the bottom feeder isn't paying taxes? So, you pay me 150 under the table and it turns into 180 when I slip it in my pocket? Sign me up for whatever that is! I can't even consistently make 20% on the stock market.

So, 150 a day take home is 39000 a year. Kind of ***** if you ask me. Break my back for pennies. Pay all my own medical insurance, if I could afford it. Have not workers comp if I get hurt. I have to replace tools as they wear out. Etc. Etc.

I can't even believe you are promoting using illegal workers who don't pay taxes. No wonder our country is so screwed up! Its people like you, hiring dishonest people that create the mess we have. Oh, sure, you are just one person and one little old tile guy isn't gonna screw up the economy. Unfortunately, there are thousands of them.

Insurance not needed? What happens if he leaves the hose running and floods your house, or the neighbors. Or his cheap harbor freight saw shorts out and burns your house down, or the neighbor kid comes over and plays with his grinder while he isn't watching and cuts up his leg? You gonna pay for all that? What about when the fly by night bum steals your tools and disappears while you are inside sipping your coke watching tv?

I wish I would have been able to find a helper that could have been trained in a couple hours! I would be lucky to get a helper to mix a bucket of mud right after a whole summer. Sure, every now and then I would run into a kid that had a little construction experience and he would pick it up pretty quick but those were few and far between.

Anybody can do anything their self. Nothing wrong with that. I can guarantee after a couple hours you CANNOT do it as good, or as fast as me! I spent years as an apprentice learning a trade, not a couple hours at the class at home depot. I have spent hours and thousands of posts helping people help themselves, I am all for that, I do it on here too.

I don't know the rules in Texas, I am guessing they don't require tile guys to be licensed but I am pretty sure they have to be set up as a business, pay taxes, and carry liability insurance. If you hire someone who doesn't fit that bill you and they are breaking the law.

Off my soap box now.

 

[Consaka]

Actually it depends more on a persons mechanical inclinations. Some people just have more fine and gross motor skills with mechanical inclinations then others. Some people you could train and train and train to lay tile and they will never get it to look nice.
I know kids that could be trained easily in one day to do basic tile laying and do a better job then at least one example I have of "a professional job". The biggest issue with new tile layers is to have them take their time and do the job right.
I'm sorry guys, but tile laying is not a medical science. The biggest thing "professionals" have over a new person is experience which most often equates to speed. And possibly an idea what to do with floors with uneven cracks and uneven walls. How many days do you think it should take to teach someone how to spread thinset? So if you have the time, or should I say, if I have the time then I should teach some kid everything I know. The inverse is true as well. If it needs to be done fast, then we can hire you and help you pay your tile laying university school bills.
funny you should mention Lowes and HD. I have talked to many guys there with over 20 years of experience in their fields. Some used to own their own companies. Most were better with the work then they were with the business aspect. Granted they don't come do the work if you hire HD for an install job.
Be careful how you leer at them though because most of their contractors have many years of experience and would be here agreeing with you and Dune.

Dune, couldn't agree with you more. And the thought that a kid could learn to lay tile in a day is on par with a skilled craftsman? Ludicrous. I guess it all comes down to ones expectations. If you're happy with uneven grout lines, non level tiles, crappy cuts, cracked tiles down the road,etc, then go hire the kid that trained for a day. Personally, I have higher standards. As for hiring Lowes or HD to do it, I'd be leery. They are simply sending the lowest cost contractor they could find to your house. I've seen some of the work they've done and its atrocious. So be sure to view as much of their work as possible before signing them up.