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Another really old business is no longer

Steinmetz

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"...Depending on sources…"

Which means, there is no authoritative report on this issue, and none that suggest that it's due to a torpor that develops in successive generations, unless that's what you want to believe.
 
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Brad54

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My grandfather was the VP of a bank in Chicago in the early part of the last century, and he was also a real estate developer. Third generation ended with my dad, and I have seen ALL the mistakes a family can make. We never had money, but there was a trust in place that took care of my grandmother and her spinster sister for their entire lives. For all intents and purposes, that's gone.

My grandfather owned a construction business (which was sold off after he killed himself). An uncle owned his own trucking company and retired from it. A couple of my cousins started their own.

One of my relatives founded The Frank Cotterman Ladder Company--if you work in a warehouse and have climbed portable steps, or have been in a book store and saw the ladders on rollers along the shelves, that's him. He was a distant relative that I never met, but I have many incredibly fond memories of his widow--"Aunt Do-Do," my grandmother's aunt.

My parents were always dead set against being self-employed. I remember my dad wanting to be... both my dad and my mother have told me my mom didn't want him owing his own business, she wanted the security of a steady paycheck, predictability, etc. etc.

My brother started a limo service in Ohio with a friend, and quickly grew it to the point where they had a full-time secretary, another driver, and he had to make the decision to either be full-time self-employed with his partner, or sell his half. My parents and his wife convinced him to sell. He's had a good career in mass transit, has been VP at a couple of metropolitan mass trans companies, so he's certainly successful. His friend's limo service now has several full-time mechanics, an over-the-road bus, several huge party-busses, a fleet of town cars and SUVs, etc. etc.

My son has grown up watching me build the swap meets while working other jobs, and has been a part of it. Eight years ago I quit my full-time job to become a full-time freelance writer, and run the swap meet. Did that for 5 years, and three years ago left writing and have been doing the swap meet full-time since.

When I was in 5th grade, I remember telling my dad "I don't know what I want to do for a living, but I don't want to wear a tie to work every day, and punch a clock for someone." He was an engineer for American Motors at the time, and nearly came unglued.

Later, when I launched the swap meet, his words of advice were "If it was such a great idea, someone else would already be doing it."

My son is 19, doesn't know what he wants to do for a living, but knows he will be self-employed. He's working his way through college, and taking business classes. He's struggling with life, like all teenagers/20-somethings are. He's trying to figure out what he can do now, and make his own money, while working for someone else and going to school.

Over Easter, my mom was visiting and we were talking about what he wants to do for a living, and he said he didn't know, but whatever it was, he'd be self-employed. She started telling him about all he advantages of working for someone else: regular hours, not having to worry about every little thing, a steady paycheck, you know how much you're going to make..."
He cut her off and said "and you know how much you AREN'T going to make."

The whole subject of family businesses, self-employment, etc. is very dear to me. I'm 44, and wish I'd have come to it much, much earlier, and I wish I'd have had encouragement from my family. Self-employment was NEVER something encouraged while I was growing up--in fact, just the opposite was always touted. I had no idea it could be done. I not only had to come to the realization of it on my own, I had to put up with constant discouragement for it.

Boy Wonder is going to do it on his own too... but instead of a family road-block, I'll be his cheer-leading section.

-Brad
 

Brad54

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"...Depending on sources…"

Which means, there is no authoritative report on this issue, and none that suggest that it's due to a torpor that develops in successive generations, unless that's what you want to believe.

2012 Harvard Business School study, for one source.
University of Connecticut Family Business Program, 2009, for another.
American Family Business Survey, 2007 for third.

I really don't feel like picking the flyshit out of the pepper with you over this.
If you have anything to say about the subject, post it up.
If you want to keep asking questions as a means of trying to prove me wrong, don't waste any more of my time.

-Brad
 

Askme42

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"...By the time it's 3rd generation, the founder was probably pretty well-off, the second generation was wealthy from it, the 3rd generation grows up spoiled…".

The Rockefeller brothers do not conform to your generalization.

Huh?

I think I just saw a special on them and at a family reunion of 100 or so there wasn't 1 millionaire
 

Brad54

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I would be interested in seeing that artic side by side with an article that addresses business age in general. I'm going to guess the numbers have more to do with longevity than with genealogy.

It's just a guess on my part though.
It's based on by the the third generation comes about the life of the plan has expired.
And Remove farms from the equation like they do for employment numbers.

Actually, there are several interesting factors, including not adapting to changing business environments, not embracing new technology, not being ahead of different curves, etc. etc.

What a lot of that boils down to is the second and third generations not putting the same efforts into keeping the business fresh, keeping it going, and overcoming challenges, creating innovations, etc. that the founder put in to build the business.

The companies that survive into multiple generations have that in common: they are constantly evolving, updating, advancing, reacting to changes in the environment. Seeing how the market is changing, and actively positioning the company to take advantage of that. Resting on your laurels is the surest way for a business to fold--whether it's 1st generation, or 3rd generation.

I think most 1st generation businesses that survive to be passed down, did not get that way by resting on their laurels, at any time in the company's history. If they did, they wouldn't have survived to be passed on.

I don't know a single successful businessman that isn't constantly working at building his business.

-Brad
 

Shadowdog500

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Typical third generation family business failure. Look it up, Only 30% of family businesses make it to the second generation! only 12% make it to the third generation, and only 3% of family businesses make it through the third generation. For some reason family wealth is usually gone in the third generation as well.

Chris
 

Shadowdog500

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So now post the number of years they used as a generation, and then most the failure years of a non family owned business that does not trade stock in multiples of yearly income.

I think you may find that the family businesses outlast the non family ones.

It isn't number of years, it's number of successors.

The way it works is
Generation #1 Dad starts the business, then retires or dies
Generation #2 Son runs the business then retires or dies
Generation #3 grandson runs the business then retires or dies.

The average family business only lasts 24 years which is usually in Generation #1

Chris
 

ducksface

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Generations have to be measured in years.
Decide on an acceptable number, fifteen years, twenty years, twelve years, thirty years: multiply it by three and tell us the percentage of non family owned businesses in business for those number of years.

If the article left out the comparison then It was just word sellers, or worse, doctoral students, selling words.
If the exact same nonfamily businesses are not included in the research, to what value is the information? Certainly not as a comparison... Which is what you're trying to do.


Monkeys live to be 30 years old.
I do not know how long parrots live.
Monkeys are obviously superior.

Unless you're saying, as I can read your last post this way:
There are no nonfamily owned businesses than can exist past the first generation... Which makes the article even more biased and stupid and self-serving.

That's how I'm seeing it until you provide info on nonfamilyl owned businesses. Because that's exactly what you're saying.

I can be easily swayed. It's just a post of the facts for comparison.
 
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Shadowdog500

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generations have to be measured in years.
Decide on an acceptable number, fifteen years, twenty years, twelve years, thirty years: Multiply it by three and tell us the percentage of non family owned businesses in business for those number of years.

If the article left out the comparison then it was just word sellers, or worse, doctoral students, selling words.
If the exact same nonfamily businesses are not included in the research, to what value is the information? Certainly not as a comparison... Which is what you're trying to do.


Monkeys live to be 30 years old.
I do not know how long parrots live.
Monkeys are obviously superior.

Unless you're saying, as i can read your last post this way:
There are no nonfamily owned businesses than can exist past the first generation... Which makes the article even more biased and stupid and self-serving.

That's how i'm seeing it until you provide info on nonfamilyl owned businesses. Because that's exactly what you're saying.

I can be easily swayed. It's just a post of the facts for comparison.

no in this case generation is father to son!!!!!!!

Look it up and prove me wrong!!!!!!!!!!
 

Shadowdog500

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no in this case generation is father to son!!!!!!!

Look it up and prove me wrong!!!!!!!!!!

Is it Bruce Wayne inherited at 12, or the guy someone here used to work for, that became company president and never had a job until he was thirty nine? Maybe it's the child king who inherited the throne.... Maybe it's the 'I killed all three of them guy' who is seventy two and awaiting to inherit the business....

Pick any number between Bruce and never worked guy.

I'm still waiting!:D
 
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Dick in Wisconsin

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Lots of stuff going on in this thread. A few of my observations.

First, any family business starts with one or two people who have an idea. They work hard to make a successful business out of that idea regardless of what it is. With a few exceptions, the idea often becomes antiquated and outdated and unless the there are a new stream of ideas, the business will slowly die as many ideas usually become obsolete eventually. If the family is lucky there is a steady stream of new ides, innovation, and the business continues to be successful.

But as time goes on, the family becomes larger and larger and larger. More and more family members in successive generations grow up and often want to be supported directly or indirectly by the family business. I questions becomes: Just how many people can eat off the same plate? Few if any family businesses become successful enough or large enough to fulfill the financial demands of successive generations. Then things start to fall apart.

Another observation comes to me after reading about the small town in Ohio with all the businesses that started in that town. Reminds me of the small town in Wisconsin I was born in 62 years ago. When I look back on the economic history of that small town I see a long list of successful entrepreneurs who all had good ideas and were successfully at building businesses. Some that lasted just one generation or some two. (I don't think that enough "economic history" is taught in high schools, tech schools, colleges, and universities.)

What kept the town successful (and this is what most people miss) is that the financial and economic success of any town or city or community is most often dependent upon the community having a steady pipeline of entrepreneurs with economically viable ideas. Without those fresh ideas (which become businesses in the community) the community will wither, be lethargic economically, and sometimes die.

I strongly believe this line of thinking is usually "lost" on both the part of local politicians as well and the schools. If there isn't a good political environment that allows the entrepreneurs to flourish and their isn't a workforce with the right education, the entrepreneurs will have an extremely difficult time being successful. If the entrepreneurs aren't successful, then the community will have a very difficult time being successful over the long run.

I'm not advocating that the local politicians have to roll over for the business community every time they turn around, but there is no reason to make things difficult and hard just to make them difficult and hard. I'm not advocating that the business community should be allowed to **** and pillage the environment, but regulations should be reasonable and founded somehow in science.

This works for large communities as well as small ones.
 
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Model A Fan

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Any industrial storage or shelving you can get from the company? A place like that may have some old industrial garage type items. Maybe your friend could get you some?
 

Brad54

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Lots of stuff going on in this thread. A few of my observations.

First, any family business starts with one or two people who have an idea. They work hard to make a successful business out of that idea regardless of what it is. With a few exceptions, the idea often becomes antiquated and outdated and unless the there are a new stream of ideas, the business will slowly die as many ideas usually become obsolete eventually. If the family is lucky there is a steady stream of new ides, innovation, and the business continues to be successful.

But as time goes on, the family becomes larger and larger and larger. More and more family members in successive generations grow up and often want to be supported directly or indirectly by the family business. I questions becomes: Just how many people can eat off the same plate? Few if any family businesses become successful enough or large enough to fulfill the financial demands of successive generations. Then things start to fall apart.

Another observation comes to me after reading about the small town in Ohio with all the businesses that started in that town. Reminds me of the small town in Wisconsin I was born in 62 years ago. When I look back on the economic history of that small town I see a long list of successful entrepreneurs who all had good ideas and were successfully at building businesses. Some that lasted just one generation or some two. (I don't think that enough "economic history" is taught in high schools, tech schools, colleges, and universities.)

What kept the town successful (and this is what most people miss) is that the financial and economic success of any town or city or community is most often dependent upon the community having a steady pipeline of entrepreneurs with economically viable ideas. Without those fresh ideas (which become businesses in the community) the community will wither, be lethargic economically, and sometimes die.

I strongly believe this line of thinking is usually "lost" on both the part of local politicians as well and the schools. If there isn't a good political environment that allows the entrepreneurs to flourish and their isn't a workforce with the right education, the entrepreneurs will have an extremely difficult time being successful. If the entrepreneurs aren't successful, then the community will have a very difficult time being successful over the long run.

I'm not advocating that the local politicians have to roll over for the business community every time they turn around, but there is no reason to make things difficult and hard just to make them difficult and hard. I'm not advocating that the business community should be allowed to **** and pillage the environment, but regulations should be reasonable and founded somehow in science.

This works for large communities as well as small ones.

AWESOME post. That's a fantastic point of view. And I see it very, very clearly in several of the communities around me.

:beer:
 

Lookin4'67Galaxieconv

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I strongly believe this line of thinking is usually "lost" on both the part of local politicians as well and the schools. If there isn't a good political environment that allows the entrepreneurs to flourish and their isn't a workforce with the right education, the entrepreneurs will have an extremely difficult time being successful. If the entrepreneurs aren't successful, then the community will have a very difficult time being successful over the long run.

Apply that to this country and the direction we're on course for and you see what our future is. :sad:
 

Dick in Wisconsin

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AWESOME post. That's a fantastic point of view. And I see it very, very clearly in several of the communities around me.

:beer:

Thanks Brad!

Apply that to this country and the direction we're on course for and you see what our future is. :sad:

Mr. Galaxie that is a very profound statement. I keep trying to see a glass half full ... but I struggle to see that. My view of the future might be a little dimmed because I live in the Milwaukee area and see so many rusting hulks of what had been industrial power houses: A.O. Smith (13,000 Milw jobs gone), Allis-Chalmers (9,500 Milw jobs gone), Kearney & Trecker (100's, maybe 1,000's of Milw jobs gone), American Motors (est'd 5,000 jobs in Milw gone), and the list goes on. Add to that the dozens and dozens (if not hundreds) of job shops that relied on those industrial power houses for work and you're talking a tremendous number of good paying jobs and economic prosperity.

Sadly this has been repeated across the nation. I don't know what the future will hold.
 

spongerich

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That *****.

I've got a drawer full of those and have been putting off buying some more because I don't use them all that often. Now all the ones on eBay are going to double in price because they're "Vintage" transfer screws.
 

Beenman

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Its not all doom and gloom in the US. There are people that are trying very hard to reverse the trends you see in business, especially the manufacturing industry.

See this website - http://www.americanmanufacturing.org/

And this video has an excellent interview with Scott Paul (President of above listed organisation). Interestingly, the interview is conducted by the owner of a machine shop (apparently he has his own reality show or something).

The video is long, but definitely worth the watch.

I envy you guys in the US as you still have smart people in the right places with enough muscle to make a difference. We can only but wish for this kind of thing to happen over here.....
 

LordPsychon

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In your basement...seriously, go look now!
Its not all doom and gloom in the US. There are people that are trying very hard to reverse the trends you see in business, especially the manufacturing industry.

See this website - http://www.americanmanufacturing.org/

And this video has an excellent interview with Scott Paul (President of above listed organisation). Interestingly, the interview is conducted by the owner of a machine shop (apparently he has his own reality show or something).

The video is long, but definitely worth the watch.

I envy you guys in the US as you still have smart people in the right places with enough muscle to make a difference. We can only but wish for this kind of thing to happen over here.....

Throw some Krugerands our way and maybe you'll get a bite.:bounce:
 
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