Another sub box question

[djd99]

I want to add power to my other shop beside my house witch is 65' from the house main. The house has a 100 amp federal pacific box with 5 spots left for breakers. Now I want to add a wood workshop to one end of my 30 x 40 witch currently does not have power. Like I said the run from the 100 amp federal pacific to the woodshop panel wood be 65'. I allready have 100' of #8 thhn could I possibly use this wire and also what size sub panel should I get for the woodshop. I need about 8 4 foot lights and 2 220 circuits for a air compressor, table saw. The room is going to consist of 1 220 floor standing table saw, 1 110 band saw and 1 220 30 gallon air compressor with future tools in mind also with 8 4' lights.

Any recommendations on what I should be using for this? ie what size with to run from the 2 boxes, what breaker should I use in the main box and what size sub box for the wood shop? Don

 

[djd99]

Here's a pic of the main panel, All the red wires is a relient transfer switch box mounted on the back of the house. I'm using a coleman 6500 to repower the house during an outage.

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

dj,

I think you might want to consider upgrading your service to the house before adding on the workshop panel. Most homes now have at least a 200 amp service and a sub-panel to an outbuilding of 60 to 100 amps. Given the saw, 220 air compressor and "future tools" in mind, your house panel would get overloaded in a hurry.

If you have a bare bones, minimal amperage draw from the house it might be possible but with a 220 compressor you will need a 30 amp circuit at a minimum plus (depending on the saw) another 15 to 20 amps for it plus lights and the future tools that will add to the load.

Hopefully one of the electricians on the board will hop in and help on this one and give you a better answer.

Edit: To answer your other question, I don't think a #8 will work for a 65 foot run and handle the compressor and both saws unless you use them one at a time. I will let wiser heads than mine answer that though...

 

[Falcon67]

Just me - I would not try to pull 100 out of that FP box. I would try to go back to the service entrance and maybe add something there and run to the shop. For 100amps @ 65', I'll bet you are looking at #4 minimum wire size. I use "100A" because I think a building that size would need that capacity. 60A is probably "good 'nuff" - but I still wouldn't pull that out of the house panel.

FWIW - my 20x24 has a 60A service to a 16 slot panel. In there is a lathe, will have a mill soon, 220V 3.5hp compressor, drill press, metal saw, misc bench tools, 10" table saw, A/C, 5KW electric heat. And at least one race car. I can't use all that at once (because I can't hardly walk in there now LOL) , but in the winter with the heater going there is a chance I can be in the 50A range for periods of time. The heater pulls 20A on each leg by its self. I'd run every motor I could off 220 also. Easier load balancing and the tools seem to like it. Don't cheese out on power.

 

[sberry]

What type of appliances in the house? Gas or electric?

 

[Aceman]

I'd recommend calling an electrician out to your house to do a load calc first. I'll bet the house lights will blink when the air compressor kicks on....

 

[djd99]

I was hoping that I could get away with using what I had being most of the time there would be only the lights and maybe 1 220 unit going at once. In my auto shop I have a 60 amp service running 12 4' lights, 20 cfm compressor with 7hp motor,millermatic 220 welder,hoist and never had a problem with overloading that as of yet being I only use 1 22o device at a time. My plan was to put a dp 50 amp breaker in the house box and run the #8 thhn through 1 1/4 plastic conduit into a 60 amp panel in the shop, but from the sounds of it you guys would advise against it. The house has natural gas for furnace and hot water heater and 220 electric stove and oven. My biggest problem in the house is 1 circuit is overloaded with kitchen accessory's and living room on 1 circuit. I've always wanted to add a breaker just for the fridge being you can't run the microwave,dishwasher and a vacuum at the same time without popping a breaker and it's been this way for years since the house was built. Maybe I better hold off as this probably should be done first but I've been getting antsy to have my workshop in place or light's without running an extension cord to run my 3 4' light's now. Money is a little tight so I have to expand wisely.

 

[djd99]

Wow I've been doing some research on federal pacific boxes and the info on the net is frightening to say the least, What would be a good estimate if I were to replace this 100amp box to say a 200 amp service? I wish I knew this sooner as I just spent $1500 on a new livingroom floor. Also what is the chance I could replace this box myself, would it pass inspection if your not certified. I feel it's fairly easy to as long as I know witch size wires to run to the meter. I'm thinking I could pull a permit, have the power company come pull the meter and I could take out the fp and replace it with something more reliable that's not a fire hazard. What size wire would be required to run into a 200 amp service? I don't think I need a huge box as you can see from the pic I don't have alot know. What would you recommend? Right know the whole house is run off 5 single pole and 3 dp breakers. Being this is the case Would I be required to run new lines to the kitchen or could I get away with just replacing the box?

The way I understand this being a homeowner I can replace my own box.
michigan code

Do you need a license to do electrical work?
To obtain electrical permits, an applicant shall be an electrical contractor or specialty contractor licensed by a municipality or by the State Electrical Administrative Board

or

a homeowner performing electrical work in a single family home and accompanying outbuildings owned and occupied, or to be occupied, by the person performing the installation.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

It Will take much longer than you think to change out a panel, especially with the rats nest of wiring in yours, and you will be without electricity the whole time.

You need to check with local inspectors (if any) and find out what permit requirements are, and what inspections will be needed and minimum requirements are. You may have to have a outside disconnect next to the meter (not required by code but many localities require it when you upgrade or modify or do a new install).

You need to spend alot of time thinking thru a plan, what new service entrance wire you will need, can you run it where the old cable is run, mounting a new panel, pulling all of your new wires back into it and connecting neatly. If you are having overload problems in the house now, you won't be able to fix that till you split up some circuits, which you may have to do later on, but the new panel will give you room to do that.

Electrical work is best well planned and thought thru, mentally rehearsed as to how it will be done, and carefully executed, or it will be a screw up of monumental proportions.

Charles

 

[Falcon67]

Electrical work is best well planned and thought thru, mentally rehearsed as to how it will be done, and carefully executed, or it will be a screw up of monumental proportions.

Charles

Amen to that

When we moved in, there were 4 boxes on the house, 2 small FP boxes with maybe 8 breakers total. One 20A controlled every plug in the entire house. Knob-and-tube+a bit of Romex here and there. No color codes, stuff running every which-way. The only clearly identifiable circuits were the run to the dryer and the run to the AC unit.

I see cloth covered wire in your panel, meaning you probably have many similar issues. It's no small job. I was fortunate that whoever did the outside wiring hack liked to use weather heads and each box had it's own cute little weather head. I pulled 10 new runs into the attic and was able to mount a panel and do a temp hookup to power that panel while I moved circuits over. The whole deal took maybe 3-4 months. We were only without power when I was done and I pulled the meter to run a permanent set of wires to the new box and tore off most of the others.

Depending on how wires enter your box, it may be possible to remove that box and replace with a 200. You'd have to guesstimate whether the existing wires will reach a new breaker location and I imagine you'll need a new feed in from the meter.

 

[djd99]

Amen to that

When we moved in, there were 4 boxes on the house, 2 small FP boxes with maybe 8 breakers total. One 20A controlled every plug in the entire house. Knob-and-tube+a bit of Romex here and there. No color codes, stuff running every which-way. The only clearly identifiable circuits were the run to the dryer and the run to the AC unit.

I see cloth covered wire in your panel, meaning you probably have many similar issues. It's no small job. I was fortunate that whoever did the outside wiring hack liked to use weather heads and each box had it's own cute little weather head. I pulled 10 new runs into the attic and was able to mount a panel and do a temp hookup to power that panel while I moved circuits over. The whole deal took maybe 3-4 months. We were only without power when I was done and I pulled the meter to run a permanent set of wires to the new box and tore off most of the others.

Depending on how wires enter your box, it may be possible to remove that box and replace with a 200. You'd have to guesstimate whether the existing wires will reach a new breaker location and I imagine you'll need a new feed in from the meter.

This is what I was thinking also, I had another idea that I want to talk to my neighbor about. I thought If I had him install a 100 amp disconnect by the meter I then could install a 125amp panel on my own time without going through all the hassle and not having to pull a permit. This is my house and personally I don't care what happens when I'm dead witch is when they'll no no permit was issued.
I will also want to add 2 more circuits and run a direct for my fridge and dishwasher at the same time. This was just a crazy idea I had last night thinking about all the hassle it would be to lose power for a few days. I will admit some of my ideas are well thought out and others well you no what I mean. lol

 

[Falcon67]

That sounds like a decent idea. I don't think the FP box is inherently dangerous and it does have a few spaces left for you to move things around in the house. You may have to take a pill or request some oxygen when you price the breakers. The disconnect off the meter is probably the cleanest and quickest way to where you want to go.

Personally, I think all my ideas are brilliant. I get tripped up in the execution phase where silly facts mess up the whole plan.

 

[His200HerScout]

The way I understand this being a homeowner I can replace my own box.

Correct

Do you need a license to do electrical work?

If it's your house, no license required.

That being said, I am a Michigan resident non-electrician DIYer and I've done a ton of electrical work on my house, and I'm about to do a 200A service upgrade and wire my new garage. But... 1) The electrical inspector for my township is a very nice, helpful gentleman and 2) I read (present tense) alot and ask lots of questions.

I'm thinking I could pull a permit, have the power company come pull the meter and I could take out the fp and replace it with something more reliable that's not a fire hazard.

That's my plan of attack, whenever I get to it. Disconnecting service at the meter is the safest way, IMHO.

I then could install a 125amp panel on my own time without going through all the hassle and not having to pull a permit

Remember the permit process is for your safety, and the inspectors work for you. I have left electrical, building, plumbing, and mechanical permits open for years while I do things whenever I feel like getting to them. There is no hassle. Once a year the tax assessor calls and asks "You done yet? Alright, no change in property value then. Talk to you next year." The inspectors never call. You should really consider coming up with a long-term plan and telling your inspector that you want a permit, you're trying to do the right thing, you're going to take a long time, and you're going to keep him in the loop. He should have no problem with that.

Where in Michigan do you live?

 

[mrb]

do this right, contact the power co to find out the requirements for a new service, pull a permit and do the work. You can coordinate this so you arent without power for more than a few min.

yeah, you can bootleg it and do what you want because its your house and you dont plan on moving from it -but what are you going to do when it burns down and your insurance company refuses to pay the claim because of your illegal electrical work (even if your work didnt cause the fire)? This happens more often than you think.