Another Waterpump Thread

[tealetm]

Hey all, I was just reading another thread about water pump issues and figured I'd toss my own out there. I know this isn't a plumbing forum but there is a lot of general figure-it-out yourselve kind of knowledge here.

We have a shared seasonal camp and I have come to take over some of the maintenance issues and am trying to troubleshoot our water pump.

I do not know what kind of pump we have other than it is 220v, it is submerged in the lake (about 4' deep, off the bottom, in a drum with holes) and has been installed for more years than I know (15+). Again, this is a seasonal use camp so the pump really only sees action in the summer during weekends when people are up there. The pump pumps water out of the lake about 75' through a buried plastic water line with probably 10' of head, into the basement where it feeds into a standard pressure tank and goes throughout the house from there. Nothing has changed in this setup in years and it has always worked well. In the winter we drain the house, open up a valve in the supply line which lets air into the buried line and thus drains it out to prevent freezing (would this mean there is a foot valve or not in the lake?)

So on to the problem. Last year, I noticed on a few occasions that when using the water all of the sudden the water would stop coming out of the faucets (almost immediately). I can not find any common themes when this would happen. Each time when it happens I have checked the breaker which has not been tripped. Switching the breaker on and off does not resolve the problem. After a few minutes and for apparent no reason, there would be water all of the sudden again at the faucets and everything would be back to normal.

Last fall I put on a mask and swam down to check out the pump as i thought maybe there was something blocking the intake. The intake appeared clean. However, and this is where I'm out of my expertise, when I placed my hand within a few inches of the pump I could feel a slight tingling, like I was getting slightly shocked underwater.

Does anybody have any clues? I'm assuming the tiny "shock" I felt isn't normal and may or may not be the cause of the random and occasional shut off?

The camp is several hours away and I'm trying to prep myself for what to bring up to continue troubleshooting.

 

[Milton Shaw]

Water and electricity and swimming is a death waiting to happen. Replace the pump before someone is killed. That happens a lot at boat marinas with leakage of electricity from bad wiring on dock and houseboats. Do not get in the water with the power on anymore.

 

[firebirdparts]

There is no footvalve in the lake. Not appropriate with a submerged pump. However, you do have a check valve to keep the pressure tank holding pressure. That's probably in the basement.

You probably would benefit from having a pressure gauge at the tank and also be ready to check power going to the pressure switch to the pump. It's pretty hard to see how water flow could stop "suddenly" with a pressure tank, but you could at least watch how this system operates and convince yourself that there is or is not air in the tank. If there's no air in it, then some of its behaviors are more troublesome.

 

[tealetm]

Agreed, I should have been clearn and stated that I don't plan on being anywhere near the pump with its power on again. Thanks for the blunt and helpful reminder. The pump is several hundred feet from the nearest "active" area in the water, this is a large lake.

Theoretically wouldn't the breaker trip if something was shorting to the water? Any thoughts as to what could be wrong with the pump? If I'm going to pull it (which will be a project in itself without a scuba tank) I may look it over to see if its fixable instead of replacing it.

 

[dcg9381]

• You have a pressure tank. Is there a gauge on it? To test it, you want to run the pump with the water off, then turn the pump off (at the breaker) - you should retain pressure and be able to get about 1/2 the volume of the pressure tank out of it even with the pump off. Pressure tanks go bad, causing rapid pump cycling.
• Does this pump have a control unit with capacitors or is it a simple on/off motor?

With above, major caution is necessary when servicing submerged pumps.

 

[tealetm]

There is no footvalve in the lake. Not appropriate with a submerged pump. However, you do have a check valve to keep the pressure tank holding pressure. That's probably in the basement.

You probably would benefit from having a pressure gauge at the tank and also be ready to check power going to the pressure switch to the pump. It's pretty hard to see how water flow could stop "suddenly" with a pressure tank, but you could at least watch how this system operates and convince yourself that there is or is not air in the tank. If there's no air in it, then some of its behaviors are more troublesome.

I didn't think there would be a footvalve- otherwise the line wouldn't drain as it does. It is constantly being mentioned by other family members who have been involved for years which is why I brought it up.

Yes, there is a check valve in the basement on the line before the pressure tank (the valve to let air into the line and drain it is between the pump and that check valve). There is a gauge at the pressure tank, which does function and everything seems to operate correctly when working properly. When the water "shuts off", the pressure gauge reads zero.

When you say that there is or is not air in the tank you are talking about the bladder in the pressure tank or stuck air in the water portion of the tank? I checked the pressure with a regular air gauge at the tank and the air pressure was within spec for the shutoff switch value.

Thanks again

 

[tealetm]

• You have a pressure tank. Is there a gauge on it? To test it, you want to run the pump with the water off, then turn the pump off (at the breaker) - you should retain pressure and be able to get about 1/2 the volume of the pressure tank out of it even with the pump off. Pressure tanks go bad, causing rapid pump cycling.
• Does this pump have a control unit with capacitors or is it a simple on/off motor?

With above, major caution is necessary when servicing submerged pumps.

When you ask if there is a guage on the pressure tank, are you talking to measure the air pressure within or the water pressure? No for air pressure (although I've checked it with a regular tire gauge) and yes for water pressure.

Pump does not have a control unit remotely at least, 220 comes from breaker, to the pressure switch, and then underground to the pump (no clue what is at the actual pump).

 

[tealetm]

duplicate post

 

[dcg9381]

When you ask if there is a guage on the pressure tank, are you talking to measure the air pressure within or the water pressure? No for air pressure (although I've checked it with a regular tire gauge) and yes for water pressure.

I'm asking about water pressure. I guess you've determined that the pressure tank is still functional?

The other thing to check, next time water stops, is to go out to the pressure switch and make sure it is closed (you can do this by removing the cover and viewing the contacts).

 

[tealetm]

Go

I'm asking about water pressure. I guess you've determined that the pressure tank is still functional?

The other thing to check, next time water stops, is to go out to the pressure switch and make sure it is closed (you can do this by removing the cover and viewing the contacts).

Thanks, yes the water pressure gauge is functional- when the water stops there is zero pressure. The tank air pressure is OK when last checked so I believe the tank is functioning properly.

I believe I checked the contacts on the switch and they were closed when the water stopped- meaning the pump has power going to it.

Leading me to believe its something on the pump end?

 

[PCustoms]

How the hell is it acceptable to have a submersible pump in a lake?

Get rid of that and switch to a shore mounted pump and suction line. This sounds dangerous as hell, nevermind the performance issues.

 

[dcg9381]

How the hell is it acceptable to have a submersible pump in a lake?

Get rid of that and switch to a shore mounted pump and suction line. This sounds dangerous as hell, nevermind the performance issues.

It's common practice around here for steep shore lines and a lake that has a substantially variable water level. It's way easier to get a pump to prime "pushing" water than it is to get it to suction 40' (that's about our lake water level drop this year). Lakes that are constant level, shore mounted suction is the way to go.

 

[PCustoms]

It's common practice around here for steep shore lines and a lake that has a substantially variable water level. It's way easier to get a pump to prime "pushing" water than it is to get it to suction 40' (that's about our lake water level drop this year). Lakes that are constant level, shore mounted suction is the way to go.

I've never seen a submerged lake pump in 30 years and various lakes.

Last winter the lake and river fluctuated 6'. All the pumps are on shore.

 

[couch67]

For steep shores, I've typically seen the pump either in a boathouse (if there is one) or in a small pump house close to shore. Never seen a submersible.

OP, I suspect the pump has a fault but not enough to cause the breaker to flip. This could also be a bad breaker which would be very dangerous.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

First things I would check.
A) when you loose flow / pressure. Is the pressure switch supplying power to the pump?
- simple non contact voltage sensor on feed wire to pump
B) If the pump wires do have power, then likely there are thermostats in the pump shutting it down.
- these are simple bimetalic switches in motor windings that open up if they overheat essentially shutting the pump down until it cools off.
- If this is the case, pump (or your barrel) is either clogged up or motor is going out
- I suppose it could also be the barrel is plugged and the pump is dewatering it

 

[dcg9381]

For steep shores, I've typically seen the pump either in a boathouse (if there is one) or in a small pump house close to shore. Never seen a submersible.

OP, I suspect the pump has a fault but not enough to cause the breaker to flip. This could also be a bad breaker which would be very dangerous.

Here, the boat houses "float" - so you can't keep a pump on them as the boat house may move (substantially) as the water level changes. Yesterday alone, the lake lost .12'. Swings of 40' are possible and swings of 20' or more have happened quickly. The lake here is 61% full.

I agree that the pump is probably faulting and still drawing current, but best to check to make sure the pressure switch is doing it's thing too if everything else is functional.

 

[tealetm]

Thanks for the advice all. I think I have a good basis on what to check next time I'm up there. Breaker panel and all breakers are only 3 years old so I doubt that the breaker is faulty but I can swap it to make sure.

Regarding the pump in the lake vs. on shore: This is located in upstate NY and the cold does a number on things. I assume the theory of having the pump submerged below ice level in the lake is 1) it is protected from the elements and doesn't require a roof of sorts to protect it and 2) it allows for the whole line to be drained relatively easily without the need to re-prime it every time. Its worked for many many years until we had a these recent few shut offs last year.

 

[firebirdparts]

When you say that there is or is not air in the tank you are talking about the bladder in the pressure tank or stuck air in the water portion of the tank? I checked the pressure with a regular air gauge at the tank and the air pressure was within spec for the shutoff switch value.

It doesn't matter. I don't think you personally can tell the difference. The less air there is in there (I don't care if it's in a bladder or outside of the bladder), the faster that going-to-zero process will happen. You can influence the time it takes by changing the amount of air, if you want to.

 

[firebirdparts]

Get you something that allows you to check whether power is on. This is super easy to do. It would be stupid honestly to start swapping out components when you haven't determined what's on and what's off.

 

[PoorUB]

It is possible the pump is running, but worn out and not pumping enough head to push the water up the bank to the house.
I might try unhook the plumbing as close as you can to the lake shore and run the pump and see if and how much water shoots out. NP

 

[Uncle murph]

How the hell is it acceptable to have a submersible pump in a lake?

Get rid of that and switch to a shore mounted pump and suction line. This sounds dangerous as hell, nevermind the performance issues.

This x1000,with 10’ of lift I definitely don’t get the submersible.

 

[TractorJeff]

You guys (some of You) have submersible pumps in the Well in your yard.
According to a number of responses above, this would be "Dangerous" as the pump is in the water!
A large number of Fountain Pumps are floating submersibles.
If the OP has leakage current and the pump stopping, then it is time to replace it.
During COVID, a neighbor had the same Pump symptoms. Run for a while, then mysteriously quit. He did the whole parts change routine according to his Buddies (local No-It-Alls). Finally, he had the pump tested at the local Plumbing Supply. They told him the seals were breaking down allowing water to get into the electrical areas which caused the leakage current issues. Bought a new pump and his Fountain has run fine ever since!

 

[RPH]

Work on induction systems. You quickly learn that water and electricity can mix. Lot’s of copper tube utilized as water cooled wire.
I don’t know the number of times I have been asked about “electrified” water leaking out. Had RF systems that reached 15 kV and still used copper tube as wire.

 

[Innovate1]

Agreed, I should have been clearn and stated that I don't plan on being anywhere near the pump with its power on again. Thanks for the blunt and helpful reminder. The pump is several hundred feet from the nearest "active" area in the water, this is a large lake.

Theoretically wouldn't the breaker trip if something was shorting to the water? Any thoughts as to what could be wrong with the pump? If I'm going to pull it (which will be a project in itself without a scuba tank) I may look it over to see if its fixable instead of replacing it.

If there is leakage current there is a big difference between what can kill you and what will trip a standard breaker. GFCI breakers detect the small difference in current that is leakage and shut off. What can cause a dangerous shock is over 1000 times smaller than the rating of most breakers.

 

[PCustoms]

Work on induction systems. You quickly learn that water and electricity can mix. Lot’s of copper tube utilized as water cooled wire.
I don’t know the number of times I have been asked about “electrified” water leaking out. Had RF systems that reached 15 kV and still used copper tube as wire.

Deionozed water and isolated loops though correct?

 

[dcg9381]

We have people that have died in our local lake as something electrifies the water around the floating boat house.. Usually a frayed electric cable. No way I'm doing anything around the lake that isn't covered with a GFI breaker. Unfortunately, around here, you can't get away from using a submerged pump due to highly variable water levels and shorelines that have steep grades.

 

[RPH]

Deionozed water and isolated loops though correct?

Distilled is preferred but deionized will work. It’s aggressive with materials. Hardest part for customers to understand is water maintenance paid off.
Both ac and dc potentials are applied to the water. Water column was part of design resistivity to stop leakage current. Many parallel water cooling paths but an interesting mix in the end. You get a chance to see weird electrical properties under water flow. Carbon tracks and arcing inside the water hoses is common. But no water flow, no current flow. It’s that critical for cooling.

 

[PCustoms]

Distilled is preferred but deionized will work. It’s aggressive with materials. Hardest part for customers to understand is water maintenance paid off.

Brain fart, meant distilled.

The HT machines used to scare the **** out of me, especially knowing our maintenance record and our (lack of) understanding of the technology.

Got an eye opener and a hell of a parts bill the day the thing blew up. Suddenly the company started seeing the benefits of proper PM.

EDIT: now that I think about it, when I became involved they were filling the damn thing from the mineral water meant for the fountain....I questioned it and was told "same difference"

 

[RPH]

Brain fart, meant distilled.

The HT machines used to scare the **** out of me, especially knowing our maintenance record and or (lack of) understanding of the technology.

Got an eye opener and a hell of a parts bill the day the thing blew up. Suddenly the company started seeing the benefits or proper PM.

Yup, expensive repairs with lost production time that they so desire. Yet flushing the water system twice a year was too expensive and time consuming. Yet, when it goes bad, all that power goes somewhere and it usually isn’t good.

 

[Valveman]

Sorry I just saw this. It is very common to have submersible pumps in lakes. A GFI like used for swimming pools can make it safer. They say with a GFI you can hold one hot wire in your hand, drop the other in the water, and the GFI will trip before any shock when you jump in the water. Not gonna test it, but that is what they say.

The pump going off and magically coming back on is the common failure mode for a submersible pump. The overload in the motor is tripping. It will auto-reset after it cools off and makes you think the water just magically came back on. You have got as many cycles out of that pump as it was designed for. You are going to need a new motor/pump.

With the pipe drain back system I also do not think you have a bladder tank. The old air over water tank does not have a bladder and uses the bleed back system to force air into the tank every time the pump starts.

Cycling on and off too many times is what destroys nearly every pump. There are ways to eliminate the cycling by using a Cycle Stop Valve. There are also ways to make the system drain back after switching to a bladder style tank. I can help if you would like?

 

[pcmeiners]

"OP, I suspect the pump has a fault but not enough to cause the breaker to flip. This could also be a bad breaker which would be very dangerous."


If the pump had a fault it would not cause an electric shock unless there is no proper ground. Bad breaker could not cause a shock. Most likely the electric connection to the pump or the power line is not waterproof; count yourself lucky you were not dealing with salt water . You should install a GFI breaker on the pump line, after finding/repairing the fault.

 

[tealetm]

Just as a followup- I replaced the pressure switch, no change and it still malfunctioned. I replaced the submersible pump with a new pump and it solved the problem. The old pump was made in 1992, so we got a solid 30 years of service out of it before having to replace it.

Problem solved! Thanks for all of the input