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Another what chrome sockets to buy thread

richfinn

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This is a Snap On video about how sockets are made:

It only takes a couple of steps to form a socket into functional shape. The rest is basically cosmetics. I think cheap sockets might have skipped some steps to save cost. I doubt the metal forming machines are all that different from each other, but the steps to refine the socket might be the key differences in terms of "quality". Basically, cosmetic detail/workmanship is quality.

I have a fair collection of Snap-On/MAC/Facom/Beta and older Britool they are all very good sockets

However, I can get Koken faster and cheaper, quality wise no issues whatsoever close up and in use you can tell they are a quality product, I wouldn't say they are better or worse than Snap-On just an alternative

cosmetics and warranty aren't a primary concern for me as a jobbing mechanic, fit/design and performance are more important, I would try the Koken Zeal range if the finish bothers you, that said I kind of like the satin finish as its not as slippery with greasy hands
 
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WordMan

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Sk - I've had some QC issues too, like off center broaching and shallow or non-existant detents. Unacceptable in my book. That said I have a set of Sk 1/4" deep impacts that I use almost on a daily basis, even if they fall off the anvil sometimes.

Was this before or after they were bought out by Ideal?
 

Samuel D

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The great thing about Koken is the quality/range and being able to replace individual sockets
What do you mean by replacing single sockets? I ask because all brands sell single sockets, as far as I know. Certainly all the big ones. And if anything, Koken are harder to find than most. Maybe not in Kyoto.
 

richfinn

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What do you mean by replacing single sockets? I ask because all brands sell single sockets, as far as I know. Certainly all the big ones. And if anything, Koken are harder to find than most. Maybe not in Kyoto.

Easy to get Koken in the UK, I dont buy sets of anything really anymore

I only order exactly what I need as I am already fairly well equipped and dont want the extra weight of stuff I dont actually use

Tend to find lots of tool vendors in the UK sell complete sets which is understandable, Koken I can just get the part numbers for what I need and find it online

I can do the same with Snap-On and MAC but not having a local dealer service makes RRP poor value for money

When I was in the workshop it was worth paying Snap-On prices but not so much when your buying online
 

Samuel D

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I only order exactly what I need as I am already fairly well equipped and dont want the extra weight of stuff I dont actually use
I’m increasingly doing the same. For sockets, for example, ‘no-skip’ sets of everything are a waste of space and money for me.
 

TuxThePenguin

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Skip sets are stupid unless you're buying duplicates. (Edit to note: I am mostly referring to basic tools such as sockets/bits, wrenches, etc. and not so much specialty stuff)

You want to go wrench shopping because a car shows up in your garage you don't have the tool for? Because you didn't feel like buying the 18mm or whatever? Ugh.

You do you... but to the rest of us, that's an insane waste of time and we want to have the proper tools handy before we need them. There is absolutely nothing worse than needing a tool immediately. You'll wind up having to buy some junky brand for way too much money (unless you're a professional, in which case you might hop on a tool truck and buy a GOOD tool for way too much money, but at least you'd be getting a quality tool).

I've bought skip sets so many times, and every single time I have regretted it. There is literally no size that is safe to skip. For every single size of wrench or socket, there are cars out there that need it. I used to buy wrench sets that skipped 16mm and 18mm. For a little bit that didn't matter, but I've owned a couple of Audis since. I had to buy some new stuff. I doubt I'll ever buy a German car again, but I'm also never buying a wrench set that doesn't include 16mm or 18mm again.

I saw some hex impacts on Harry Epstein's site last night when I was searching other stuff, and I have socket hex drivers but not impact ones, so I was like hmmm... maybe I'd like these. But then I clicked it and they skipped 7mm, a size that Ford uses. Umm... Sorry, not buying that, Wright. WTF? I find it insulting they'd even waste my time with sets that skip NECESSARY SIZES of things.
 
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M6erfan

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If they're just going to sit them in a tool box drawer, full sets are fine. For my tool cart and mobile kits I buy individuals and make sets in only the sizes I need. No reason for less space and more weight.
 

shawhite

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They'll be biased towards brands they can get replaced on the tool truck when something breaks. (This doesn't mean their responses will be incorrect, but it does mean that none of them are going to say Koken, regardless of the actual quality of Koken). A home user doesn't have the ability to go on a tool truck to get replacement parts, so the reasoning behind what a home user buys isn't going to be the same as the pros.

Proto is nice.

Why do people believe because you do not work at a shop that the snap-on/Mac/Matco/etc man will not service you. Sure he may not drive to your house but he will surely tell you where the closest place you can meet him.
 

richfinn

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Skip sets are stupid unless you're buying duplicates.

You want to go wrench shopping because a car shows up in your garage you don't have the tool for? Because you didn't feel like buying the 18mm or whatever? Ugh.

You do you... but to the rest of us, that's an insane waste of time and we want to have the proper tools handy before we need them. There is absolutely nothing worse than needing a tool immediately. You'll wind up having to buy some junky brand for way too much money (unless you're a professional, in which case you might hop on a tool truck and buy a GOOD tool for way too much money, but at least you'd be getting a quality tool).

I've bought skip sets so many times, and every single time I have regretted it. There is literally no size that is safe to skip. For every single size of wrench or socket, there are cars out there that need it. I used to buy wrench sets that skipped 16mm and 18mm. For a little bit that didn't matter, but I've owned a couple of Audis since. I had to buy some new stuff. I doubt I'll ever buy a German car again, but I'm also never buying a wrench set that doesn't include 16mm or 18mm again.

I saw some hex impacts on Harry Epstein's site last night when I was searching other stuff, and I have socket hex drivers but not impact ones, so I was like hmmm... maybe I'd like these. But then I clicked it and they skipped 7mm, a size that Ford uses. Umm... Sorry, not buying that, Wright. WTF? I find it insulting they'd even waste my time with sets that skip NECESSARY SIZES of things.

Different culture I think, I want the lightest smallest tool kit I can get away with to be honest, I really dont like any duplication of tools, if a tool can do more than one thing I'm interested

I love to marvel at some of the mega tool kits I see on youtube where the 22 year old lube tech works in a tire and oil change shop but has every special tool
 

qqzj

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I would buy GearWrench or Tekton anytime. They work well and have easy warranty. TBH, guys who have a strong opinions won't bother to ask. If one asks, GW or Tekton IS the answer.

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TuxThePenguin

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You can go on Youtube and see how much Tekton ***** (unfortunately the answer is NOT that it doesn't ****, because it does, or at least some of their basic tools which need to have strength do ****). Had some other guy on another thread tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm "not a pro" and I'm "losing the forest for the trees" because I care about how much strength a tool has. The koolaid is strong with some people. I, too, want to get through jobs without having to go warranty a tool out. If you aren't buying tools because they are well-made and reliable, what ARE you buying them for? The trendy brand name that people are talking about online? Please.

Like here's one of many videos from various people you can find showing that Tekton ***** (this isn't my video):

He tests a bunch of underwhelming brands and Craftsman came out the best. Now, I've owned plenty of Craftsman and have personally experienced the open ends on those wrenches (USA made ones to be clear) slipping on bolts that better brands haven't. I consider Craftsman - literally every single thing they EVER sold - to be garbage, and Tekton is below it. Worse than garbage. Like I used to have Craftsman for just about everything, I'd use like their flare nut wrenches and I pretty much never got anything off without damage, whereas I have yet to have my Snap Ons fail at that, literally not even once.

So, yes, Tekton is the answer... to the question "What brand would I never, ever, EVER consider buying?" I wouldn't even buy Tekton for a tool I intended to literally use only once.
 
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JP Chestnut

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Why do people believe because you do not work at a shop that the snap-on/Mac/Matco/etc man will not service you. Sure he may not drive to your house but he will surely tell you where the closest place you can meet him.

Depending what you're buying, an expensive tool box for instance, they will even come to your house.
 

richfinn

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Why do people believe because you do not work at a shop that the snap-on/Mac/Matco/etc man will not service you. Sure he may not drive to your house but he will surely tell you where the closest place you can meet him.

It's not that I dont like Tool truck stuff, but the warranty is worthless to me and I dont require the personal service
that the target consumer would benefit from

If they let me buy industrial stuff online without dealer backing at 50% off, I would buy that most probably

1. If it breaks I dont want another, I buy something better

2. Dont need updates/trade in/finance

3. I dont need any salesmen, I know what I'm doing and
what tools to buy

4. The whole point of using GJ for me is to break out of
the traditional USA tool truck model and find a better
way of getting good quality tools globally at a better
price point (I dont live in the USA btw)
 

Al Borland

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How can they be the same socket when ones made 100 miles away in a different country and has different features? I don't see knurling on huskys metric sockets for example, and I've checked home depot probably 50 times, and not once found a Husky Ratchet or socket made in Taiwan :

The last gearwrench sockets i looked at were Chi-com, no knurling. There have been several versions/sources for APEX, who is currently making tools for Home Depot.
 

Downwindtracker 2

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The discussion is on chrome sockets for what I assume to be an automotive application. Not the wrenches, not the ratchets, nor the sockets cost or warranty.
 

lardy1

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It isn't just who is recommending it. It also involves who it's being recommended to. In the original post he's leaning hard enough toward Koken and Snap-On for me to think suggesting something like Tekton or Gearwrench is even pertinent to the thread. If he's aware of the premier brands, I'm going to assume he already knows about the popular imports. Earlier I made a brief comment about SK. But everything had already been said, really. In my opinion, anyway.
 

JP Chestnut

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Really, if you can afford Snap On there's very little reason not to go that way. Tool for tool, snap on does a great job across the board. The only downside is the price.
 

richfinn

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Really, if you can afford Snap On there's very little reason not to go that way. Tool for tool, snap on does a great job across the board. The only downside is the price.

I agree the chrome tools including sockets are top notch

Across the full range of tools not so much!!!

Just remember if your buying Snap-On online at retail your just buying the tools, not the full bells and whistles
experience that a franchised dealer provides

Unfortunately they can't lower the online retail prices to reflect that or their business model fails

Is it worth it to a tech in a dealership/indy = 100% yes

Is it worth it to a DIYer = not in my opinion
 
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Samuel D

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There are also subtle design differences that can get ignored in these conversations.

For example, I have some Facom sockets for the same fastener head size (e.g. 10 mm) that have different wall thicknesses in different drive sizes. The assumption seems to be that larger drive sizes should withstand greater torque while smaller drive sizes should fit into smaller spaces.

Some of my Facom sockets are ancient (pre-OGV) and some new, so hard to directly compare. But here’s how the company’s current 14 mm bi-hex (12-point) regular shallow sockets compare:

Facom R.14E 1/4" drive: 18.7 mm diameter
Facom J.14 3/8" drive: 19.5 mm diameter
Facom S.14 1/2" drive: 20.2 mm diameter.

See the progression?

Stahlwille does the same. All 14 mm bi-hex sockets again:

Stahlwille 40D 1/4" drive: 18.8 mm diameter
Stahlwille 45 3/8" drive: 19.4 mm diameter
Stahlwille 50 1/2" drive: 19.9 mm diameter.

Toptul sockets aren’t optimised in this way to quite the same extent. Their 14 mm sockets go like this:

Toptul BAEB0814 1/4" drive: 19.8 mm diameter
Toptul BAEB1214 3/8" drive: 19.8 mm diameter
Toptul BAEB1614 1/2" drive: 20.4 mm diameter.

I see Toptul’s 1/4" and 3/8" sockets are also identical in length. This suggests they start life as the same part until the female square arrives.

Does this matter? Not usually but occasionally. (Bicycle mechanics will be familiar with this example where it matters for 15 mm sockets.)

Not picking on Toptul. No doubt this is one reason Toptul sockets cost less than Facom or Stahlwille sockets … a lot less.
 

Samuel D

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While I’m at it, Snap-on seems to have an even bigger difference across drive sizes. Their 1/2" socket is nearly 2 mm wider than their 1/4" one! So the wall is nearly 1 mm thicker.

Snap-on TMMD14 1/4" drive: 18.8 mm diameter
Snap-on FM14 3/8" drive: 19.6 mm diameter
Snap-on SWM141A 1/2" drive: 20.6 mm diameter.

By the way, what if you wanted a really strong 1/4" drive 14 mm socket for some reason? Maybe Toptul’s your best bet. It wouldn’t surprise me. (Nor would it surprise me if the thick walls are pointless – except to save costs, a valuable merit – because the drive end fails first.)
 

Samuel D

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Since I’m on a roll here:

Koken 2405M 1/4" drive: 19.3 mm diameter
Koken 3405M 3/8" drive: 19.5 mm diameter
Koken 4405M 1/2" drive: 20.3 mm diameter.

This is only for 14 mm bi-hex shallow sockets. The story might be different for 10 mm, or External Torx, or comparing length, or knurling, or availability, or whatever.

My point is merely to highlight a small difference that sometimes matters. If you’re going to keep these sockets for decades you may as well choose carefully.
 

M6erfan

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Shoulder and undercut are other features that matter to me, some people couldn't care less though.
 
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Downwindtracker 2

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Thanks Samuel D Here's a couple of 3/8" drive

Craftsman USA, pre knurling 19.31mm late'60s or early '70s
Armstrong USA 19.85mm, likely one of the last to come out of that factory.

They are short and full depth broached with no shoulder.
 

ssdave

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Samuel D: Here's some more data points; all 14mm:

1/4" Proto Flex Socket: 18.6mm
3/8" Snap On Flex Socket: 18.4mm
3/8" Proto standard 12 point 19.9
3/8" Proto H 6 point 19.9
3/8" Proto deeps, 6 and 12 point are also 19.9
3/8" Snap-on impact 20.3
1/2" Proto 12 point 20.4

Interesting that snap on flex sockets are thinner; the weak point on them is the joint,not the socket.

Also interesting that people here have characterized Proto as thicker than Snap-on, and they are very similar, slightly thicker in 3/8, slightly thinner in 1/2.
 
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sk farmer

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sets that skip sizes? no thanks.

if you want to buy koken i guess you can but who sells it? who carries it? and who has actually seen it? the answer to all of them is hardly anybody.

with so many known brands why?
 

Skin

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Really, if you can afford Snap On there's very little reason not to go that way. Tool for tool, snap on does a great job across the board. The only downside is the price.

In sockets it really doesnt make sense. You can buy Williams in chrome or impact and get essentially identical sockets for substantially less. They quite literally roll off the same exact line, only the stamping changes depending on the day. All you're paying a premium for is the branding.

Its no secret the tool trucks are stupid expensive/overpriced but some things have their place. However, dollar for dollar basic socketry from Snap-on/MAC/Matco is terrible.
 

Skin

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I'd like to have some confirmation that Snap-on and Williams are the same, off the same line. That has not been in any way conclusive from the anecdotal evidence we've had on here. I'd like to believe that the only difference is marketing model, but I'm not entirely sure of that. There definitely seems to be a difference in the chrome/finish. The difference may extend even deeper than the cosmetics.

I've had quite a bit of new Williams tools over the past years. No USA sockets, but a lot of USA wrenches. I can definitely say that the Williams USA wrenches are much lesser quality than the Snap-on ones.

Williams wrenches are distinctly different. The sockets are not. The impacts and chrome are identical in every way except stampings. We've had members with both say they couldn't tell a difference and there have also been members who have had the oddball Snap-on socket mixed into their new Williams set purchase.

Snap-on doesn't hide the fact that Williams sockets are made in the same place. They'll tell you as much. I don't think the combos are, or were, but Snap-on consolidated a lot of manufacturing in the last 15 years. All the same, as I said, the combos are distinct where the sockets aren't.

I was once skeptical but honestly it makes little sense for Snap-on to reduce some random aspect of quality where everything else is the same. Financially it makes no sense either since it would actually cost more as opposed to a unified production spec. It's just sockets we're talking about which is about as basic as tool production gets.
 
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WittHay

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I cant answer your question OP. You've got to figure out what fits your needs. But you are going down a rabbit hole that I'm still lost in at times. Balance wants with needs and find a level a fit and finish you are happy with. Buy you mainline tools from there and fill in the rest with things that will work.

I can tell you this for a fact. Dont start farming as a hobby unless you enjoy working on worn out junk in the blazing sun and bitter cold. Even more so unless you are wanting to drive around in a full blown service truck

Ag and tools. Service truck, welding truck, pickups, flatdecks,. Triple bay box full of good tools for the stuff that the dealers wont touch and gets completely dissembled. Smaller boxes with medium grade tools for the guys that have no problem breaking 1/2 drive sockets and then there are the cheap tools that get lost out in the fields or rattle around in equipment boxes



They'll be biased towards brands they can get replaced on the tool truck when something breaks. (This doesn't mean their responses will be incorrect, but it does mean that none of them are going to say Koken, regardless of the actual quality of Koken). A home user doesn't have the ability to go on a tool truck to get replacement parts, so the reasoning behind what a home user buys isn't going to be the same as the pros.

Proto is nice.

The difference is not so much the trucks but the mail order. In a good economy with a variety of industries and businesses, There should be no need to order basic tools like sockets online. Parts stores, tool stores, industrial supply houses, equipment dealerships and tool trucks all have tools for businesses and mechanics to keep stuff rolling or maintained

Totally different than this thread where the OP wants to mail order some good tools to fill up the Hansen trays in his personal garage. My choice would be Koken for 1/4 and 3/8 metric. Hazet for 1/2 drive metric and hex, torx and funny European stuff like triple square

For the classic American SAE vehicles Snap-on 3/8 and Mac for 6 point 1/2 drive and Snap-on for any 12 point sockets needed for ARP fasteners. On a budget go with Williams or Proto. Even though Mac and Proto are made in the same factory Mac sockets are nicer with steps and slightly thinner.
 
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2ndGearRubber

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Samuel D: Here's some more data points; all 14mm:

1/4" Proto Flex Socket: 18.6mm
3/8" Snap On Flex Socket: 18.4mm
3/8" Proto standard 12 point 19.9
3/8" Proto H 6 point 19.9
3/8" Proto deeps, 6 and 12 point are also 19.9
3/8" Snap-on impact 20.3
1/2" Proto 12 point 20.4

Interesting that snap on flex sockets are thinner; the weak point on them is the joint,not the socket.

Also interesting that people here have characterized Proto as thicker than Snap-on, and they are very similar, slightly thicker in 3/8, slightly thinner in 1/2.


Depends on size. I have some Proto 1/2 deep chrome 12 points - and some of those are THICK. Like the 14mm, which makes it useless for head bolts. Which is one of the reasons I bought a complete 10-32 12point set.
 

cherrybomb

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SSDave,
I want to thank you for the measurements and posting of the thickness, of Snap-on vs. Proto.Some people here are always quick to post ,where you actually put out numbers.Good stuff! I guess I will continue to use my Proto,not worrying about the warrenty,or the trip back on a Sunday ,to get a socket replaced.This is a great functionality stand point.I buy quality and enjoy wrenching with good tools.But each of us has to figure,what works for you might not work for the other guy.
 

JP Chestnut

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In sockets it really doesnt make sense. You can buy Williams in chrome or impact and get essentially identical sockets for substantially less. They quite literally roll off the same exact line, only the stamping changes depending on the day. All you're paying a premium for is the branding.
.

Everyone knows Williams sockets are made on the same line as Snap On. What I've never once seen confirmed is that the heat treating processes are identical. A common blank can produce two wildly different quality tools, even if they look the same.

Perhaps you know, or are, a metallurgist who looked at both Williams and SO sockets and found them to be genuinely identical. If not, "they look the same" isn't a very convincing argument.

Outside of forum conversation, most sockets will do the job just fine. I've never once had a mid 90's craftsman socket fail to do its job. Additionally, the broaching is a lot more consistent than some of what modern SK is putting out.

I was once skeptical but honestly it makes little sense for Snap-on to reduce some random aspect of quality where everything else is the same. Financially it makes no sense either since it would actually cost more as opposed to a unified production spec. It's just sockets we're talking about which is about as basic as tool production gets.

Of course it makes sense. If they can save 10 minutes in the heat treating it increases production capacity with no impact on cost. What you're intimating is economies of scale, which is typically due to the cost of line changes. There's no cost associated with a Williams specific program in whatever software controls their heat treating process.

It's also a very classic example of price discrimination.
 
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visionguru

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Koken is so much nicer than Gearwrench that that post is almost kind of insulting. Like I'm not even saying Gearwrench is **** (I actually think they're fine). But dude. You're not going to get any agreement from anyone who has owned/used Koken stuff, and whatever photos you were looking at, you were suffering from confirmation bias i.e. you went into your image search already knowing you were going to recommend against Koken.

If you ever get the chance to check out Koken in person, they are so nice. The machining lets you grip them easily. You can pull them off the socket easily. They feel nice in the hand. They feel as skookum as any other quality chrome socket including Snap On (at least to me, and to most people that actually own some Koken sockets whose comments I have seen)

Pictures tell a lot. I can tell Koken is just a mid to low grade Japanese stuff, the finish is pathetic: cheap finish, rough stamping, and machine marks. It's rare in the U.S., few people have them, but that doesn't mean it's a premium brand like Nepros.
 

Mr_B

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^
i've used Koken socketry for 30 years professionally and can't really fault it in terms of durability, broach fitment .
certainly wouldn't call the finish pathetic, it good ergonomics and in general chrome holds up well, had a rail of 3/8 sockets which had swap some sockets as flaked bad but besides that bunch they hold up better than many big names, snapon chrome while may look great is a complete **** for ergonomics, chipping and scratching if you use them in the real world .
They do a lot of innovative socketry not available anywhere else, it pretty much an industrial socketry brand .
They not into mirror finish bling but they do great accurate broaching and good design and good durability at very reasonable pricing .
 

qqzj

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He is very likely to be brain washed by the posts he read here. For example, the koken he was so fond of was later trashed by a few other posts. I am not sure how he feels about it now.

Of all the brands, I feel like snap on is the only one with good reviews everywhere. SK, wright, etc I came across bad reviews from time to time. But one has to pay through his nose for snap on.

I think it is a very good idea to give GearWrench and Tekton a chance first. These tools never ever failed me once. So even if someone gives me snap on squared tools, they will make precisely zero difference in use, only hurt my wallet. Between a pair of kids with long lists of useless things to buy, and a wife who wants only one thing (a fancy house), snobish tools are the last place for me to get satisfaction from.
It isn't just who is recommending it. It also involves who it's being recommended to. In the original post he's leaning hard enough toward Koken and Snap-On for me to think suggesting something like Tekton or Gearwrench is even pertinent to the thread. If he's aware of the premier brands, I'm going to assume he already knows about the popular imports. Earlier I made a brief comment about SK. But everything had already been said, really. In my opinion, anyway.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using The Garage Journal mobile app
 

Rabid Badger

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Pictures tell a lot. I can tell Koken is just a mid to low grade Japanese stuff, the finish is pathetic: cheap finish, rough stamping, and machine marks. It's rare in the U.S., few people have them, but that doesn't mean it's a premium brand like Nepros.

It is astounding how much you can deduce about an entire brand from a single 322x157 picture of an O2 sensor socket. From that one image you have gleaned enough information to tell people that have been using the tools professionally for years that they don't know what the hell they're talking about.

Amazing!
 

Downwindtracker 2

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I would take issue with the suggestion to get Gearwrench as I have a couple of 3/8 metric. I'm sure their quality, as with most modern sockets is perfectly fine and strength wise, better than most. The problem comes in the internal broach, in order to increase strength and cut down on warranty claims they have shorter double hex backed up by a shoulder. On industrial machinery, it's a great design, in a tight engine bay, it's exactly the opposite . My Proto, SK and Gray all share that industrial tool design. My old Craftsman and Armstrong don't .
 
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