Answer to Grounding Question Needed Before Inspection Tomorrow

[jtillery]

I will try to make this as clear as possible. I just purchased an 4700 sq ft industrial zoned building, when I tried to have the power turned on/transferred into my name the utility company said I needed a city inspection since it has been turned off for more than 12 months. The inspection is scheduled for tomorrow at noon, the inspector sounded like he was going to be a PITA. He gave me a list of what they check for, the one item he said is there must be two grounds, (1 at a ground rod and he said a cold water ground was acceptable for the second).

Here is a quick drawing of the layout:

Here is the setup:

There are a total of 3 meters (2) single phase and a three phase.

The #1 single phase load center has a ground going to the #1 cold water pipe and a ground going to the ground rod.

The #2 single phase and three phase disconnects have a ground wire running to the ground rod only.

The #1 single phase subpanel/load center, #2 single phase subpanel/load center and the three phase disconnect all have grounds running to the #2 cold water pipe.

Everything is run through metal conduit. The main water supply comes into the building right where the #1 cold water ground is.

The front part of the building was the original part, and the rear was added on later, there is no seperation between the buildings, they share the dividing wall.

The 1st single phase meter/subpanel clearly has 2 grounds, so I know I am fine on that. Both grounds are bonded on a ground bar in the load center.

My concern is the 2nd single phase meter/disconnect and the 3 phase meter/disconnect. The 2nd ground is tied in at 2 sources, through the conduit to the #2 cold water from the subpanels. It also would pull a ground to the #1 cold water from the wire running from the ground rod to the #1 single phase panel, since it is connected with the cold water ground on the ground bar in that panel. I just don't know if that is an acceptable ground code. Does anyone know? If so, do you know the section of NEC I could reference to argue my point if it gets questioned?

Everything looks like it was professionaly installed by electricians, so I don't want to mess with it, unless necessary. Even if there isn't 2 acceptable grounds, isn't existing construction grandfathered in? I do not plan on doing any new electrical work at all, the permit was only pulled as a requirement to get the inspection to have the power turned on. The building is in Cleveland, OH if it makes a difference.

Thanks

 

[buddyboy]

It passed once it should pass again, unless previous owners did uninspected work.

I personally wouldn't touch a thing on an industrial zoned building that I just purchased.

How much is the inspection going to cost? how much for a re-inspection? how much to hire a private company to come out and give it an evaluation before the inspection?

I'm sure a sparky will chime in with some good advice

good luck

 

[jtillery]

It passed once it should pass again, unless previous owners did uninspected work.

I personally wouldn't touch a thing on an industrial zoned building that I just purchased.

How much is the inspection going to cost? how much for a re-inspection? how much to hire a private company to come out and give it an evaluation before the inspection?

I'm sure a sparky will chime in with some good advice

good luck

I am much more worried about the timing then the cost. I have waited a week for this inspection since scheduling (it is tomorrow at noon). If I fail that inspection, it will be at least another week before they will reinspect it. I tried calling a few electricians, and they wouldn't answer the question over the phone, the quickest any of them could get out there was tomorrow late afternoon which is too late. I wish I would have noticed it sooner, when I checked it earlier this week, I thought there was 2 grounds at each location, but we hooked up some lights off the generator today and looked closer and noticed there may not be 2 acceptable grounds. I hate to add another and have the inspector question it if it isn't right, but I hate to do nothing and fail too.

Since it is a industrial building it is difficult to get permit/renovation records. The building went into forclosure in 2007 and the bank has owned it since early 2008. I have had no contact with any of the previous owners so I really have no clue what was inspected and what wasn't. There were a few equipment hookups that were hacked up, we took those out, and all the remaining stuff appears to be up to code with my knowledge, I am no electrician though.

 

[ddawg16]

I would consider the fact that he told you up front what he was expecting is a good thing....sounds like he cares about things being done right....

I'm inclined to agree with Buddy....let them inspect....I have always found that if you take the attitude that you want it to be right and don't try to 'challange' them on anything, they tend to be a lot more reasonable...

But we still need to hear from some of the experts....

 

[jtillery]

I would consider the fact that he told you up front what he was expecting is a good thing....sounds like he cares about things being done right....

I'm inclined to agree with Buddy....let them inspect....I have always found that if you take the attitude that you want it to be right and don't try to 'challange' them on anything, they tend to be a lot more reasonable...

But we still need to hear from some of the experts....

Right in the middle of my conversation with the inspector, he just started talking else in his office for 5 minutes. He didn't ask me to hold on, didn't apologize for the interruption, I thought it was rather rude. First thing he said when he got back on the phone was "are you an electrician?" I said no, I just purchased the building. Then for another 2-3 minutes it was going off in a rage about how he is sick of the building department issuing "homeowner" electrical permits to commercial building owners. He says it is a waste of his time since none of them know "jack sh*t" about electrical. I was so shocked by how unprofessional he was I didn't know what to say. I just said, I understand your concern and frustration, but I just want my electric turned on and this is what the utility company and building department told me I needed to do.

I know much more about electrical than your average homeowner, since I have spent close to 40 hours researching and reading the NEC for other projects, however that certainly doesn't make me an electrician and I haven't looked close enough at other installations to know what is typically done.

I was hoping one of the electricians on the board will see this thread before noon today and give me some good points to bring up if the inspector questions it (assuming it is safe the way it is). Hopefully the inspector is in a better mood today. I am not convinced that they can even require me to bring it to current code since no modifications are being made, the issue was strictly the power was off for 12 months. I'll post back what happens. Thanks

 

[Aceman]

I'm short on time, I'll throw out a few relevant code articles that may help you understand what you need:

250.52(A)1 and the exception
250.53(D)2
250.58
250.64(C),(D)

 

[walrus]

I am not convinced that they can even require me to bring it to current code since no modifications are being made, the issue was strictly the power was off for 12 months. I'll post back what happens. Thanks

I wonder ifs thats the case. Why would Power Company want an inspection otherwise?

 

[buddyboy]

with all the theft of copper lately, i can see why the power company is asking for an inspection. I'm sure they've seen/heard it all.

 

[tcianci]

I am not an electrician either, I'm a remodeler so that does make me somewhat of an expert, not on electrical issues but in dealing with inspectors... First of all, the inspector is ALWAYS right, you not being a licensed electrician puts you at a tremendous dis-advantage when it comes to dealing with him. You overheard his comments while you were on the phone, unfortunately you have gained a little insight into how muninciple offices function. These institutions generally have a culture all their own wrought from decades of being isolated from reality, responsibility and just plain courtesy. If he has such a problem in issuing permits and dealing with guys like you, (which, after all IS his job) maybe he should look for a new line of work (yeah right) you, after all are not looking to do anything but the right thing with respect to your situation. In his defense, if there are violations you will no doubt need to get a licensed guy in there to correct them even if you can legally do it yourself, you may save a bundle of time. I by no means want to lump all building departments into the same bucket, but I've had my share of experiences over the years. My usual reaction is to fire off a letter to the supervisor of the creep, after all there is no hard *** like a professional, courteous one so there is no need for the inspector to act like an idiot (well I can think of one....) but then I realize that his boss no doubt knows all about him, and how he conducts himself and just doesn't care. Besides it's doubtful that your or my comments to any building department will do more than make it even harder to do business with them the next time, and there's always a next time.

 

[jtillery]

Well, the inspector must have been in a bad mood when I talked to him on the phone. He was very pleasant and professional today. The first panel he looked at had 2 ground wires coming in, he commented on having both grounds, asked where the ground rod was at, I showed it to him, he just quickly looked at the other 2 panels/disconnects that I wasn't sure about and approved it. I should have power Monday or Tuesday next week.

I am still curious if all the panels are grounded right, but I wasn't curious enough to ask the inspector

I tried checking out the sections of the code that Aceman referenced, but someone checked out the NEC at my library, so I could only find a summary book which confused me even more.

My only other experience with the city inspectors was with my 3200 sq ft shop build (which was posted on this forum) but that was in a neighboring city. The electrical inspector there was clearly wrong on a few topics which would have added significant cost and hassle and I was able to argue my way out of doing them. Sounds like I was lucky though.

 

[tcianci]

Good for you!!!