Anti-seize on Lug Studs?

[Sumboodie]

No no no no... A guy I used to work for sayd yes,but he could not understand why he kept breaking lug studs on his wife's Volvo... Anti-sieze is a lubricant, and Lug Nut (and bolt) torques are dry, because people DO NOT put lube on their lugnits or lugbolts...

When I takes a 1" ugga dugga and a torch, I'm certainly anti seizing them!

 

[WWheeler]

Even if you don't use it on the lugs, it can be helpful to use around the center hub. This can keep the wheel from getting stuck.

I prefer to use a rust preventative oil spray like Fluid Film or WD-40 Gel Lube Spray & Stay and give the whole hub and mating surface a spritz. With antiseize I'd only do the hub as it's thicker and more likely to cause a vibration/balance issue, or so I've been told more than once.

As far as the studs go nope, but I don't live in the rust belt either. If I did I probably would even though doing so is said to risk overtightening at the specified torque

On that note, I wonder if it would be possible to test by just how much anti-seize on threads actually does cause an overtorque condition. Maybe the guys at YT's Torque Test Chanel could run a series of tests to show just how much it can affect things.

 

[Terra Nova]

On that note, I wonder if it would be possible to test by just how much anti-seize on threads actually does cause an overtorque condition. Maybe the guys at YT's Torque Test Chanel could run a series of tests to show just how much it can affect things.

That would be a pretty interesting study. In testing I've done on brake caliper banjo bolts we've seen over 40% reduction in yield torque when the banjo bolts are lubricated with brake fluid compared with them being dry. In a nut shell it takes 40% less torque to fail the banjo bolt just by adding brake fluid into the joint.

 

[Tools4Me]

That would be a pretty interesting study. In testing I've done on brake caliper banjo bolts we've seen over 40% reduction in yield torque when the banjo bolts are lubricated with brake fluid compared with them being dry. In a nut shell it takes 40% less torque to fail the banjo bolt just by adding brake fluid into the joint.

That makes total sense to me. Some posters in this GJ thread and others, think they are being safer by just using a little oil on their lug threads instead of anti-seize. I guess they are assuming oil on the threads will change the torque requirements less than regular anti-seize does so it's safer. That is usually a wrong assumption. Like I said before, the regular anti-seize I use has a K factor of 0.18 so I need to reduce torque by 10% to have equal clamping force compared to a dry thread torque spec when used on lug threads. Pretty much everywhere I look, it shows I would need to reduce the torque more if I used oil on the threads instead, which means oiled threads will usually have a higher overtorquing risk compared to threads with regular anti-seize on them.

Here are the standard torque reduction factors that I have come across, sourced from multiple reputable locations online (like anti-seize manufacturer websites, engineering toolbox, etc.).

Two of the source links I drew my results from when I did my original work are still working-

Lubricated Bolts and Reduced Torque

Lubrication effect on bolt tension and torque.

www.engineeringtoolbox.com

https://absupply.net/pdf/NeverSeez_Brochure2011.pdf

For K factor calculations, dry bare steel threads (similar to lug threads) are said to usually have a K factor of around 0.2.

-Loctite threadlockers (purple, red, or blue only)- 10-20% torque reduction is what Loctite used to recommend, but now they recommend no torque reduction, which doesn't make any sense to me. Loctite makes bolts and screws noticeably easier to turn, so I usually reduce by 20% but I also don't use loctite very often.
-Permatex regular anti-seize (K factor 0.18)- 10% reduction
-Never-Seez High Temp Stainless- 13% reduction
-Never-Seez Nuclear Grade- 15% reduction
-Permatex copper anti-seize (K factor 0.16)- 20% reduction
-Never-Seez Regular- 30% reduction
-SAE 40W oil (K factor 0.14)- 30% reduction
-Permatex Nickel anti-seize (K factor 0.13)- 35% reduction
-SAE 30W oil (K factor 0.13)- 35% reduction
-Grease (K factor 0.12)- 40% reduction
-Graphite (K factor 0.10)- 50% reduction

If KnurledNut is still reading this thread, pizza grease mixed 50-50 with tobacco spit has a K factor of around 0.14, so a 30% torque reduction would be recommended.

 

[zmotorsports]

I guess this is another place where I'm the odd man out. I have used and will continue to use anti-seize on lug nuts, as well as many other components on vehicles. I don't "slather" it on but use it sparingly but use it I do. The main thing to remember is to compensate for the torque when using a lubricant. I think this is why most manufacturers state to put them on dry is to avoid having to educate the public on the variables. I've been doing this for 35 years and never have broken a stud due to over-torqueing. Also, in my full-time job of industrial maintenance, anti-seize is imperative or components will never come off in some situations. MHE going from dry warehouse to freezer boxes and then dealing with wet rooms all create impossible scenarios for routine maintenance as well as repairs. Anti-seize allows us to be able to timely perform repairs and PM's.

When I first started back in 1988 the mechanics previously did not use anything on components and my first job was as a PM mechanic. Me and a couple of fellow mechanics got tired of spending hours on hours beating on axle shafts, drive axles, wheel lugs, fork bolts and about any other fastener on these things so we experimented with various lubricants, anti-seizes and methods until we found what works. Since then I've pretty much stuck with what I know and what works. Now I will admit when I pull something apart from another shop and I see the stuff oozing out everywhere I get frustrated because that is not necessary. When it comes to anti-seize, a little bit goes a long ways.

I sure hope all of my suspension doesn't fall out and the wheels don't fall off my RV while I'm driving down the road and I get dead because I used anti-seize.

 

[setfocus]

I didn't read through the whole thread but anti seize is a big no no for my company. Every month they make me watch a video about preventing wheel offs and take a short quiz

Wheel studs stretch when torqued and spring back when loosened unless they are over stretched. Like others have said, lube the stud and the torque value can go out the window, you can over stretch the stud

First hand example of mine
Had a newer chevy equinox (less than 50k miles 1-2 years old) a while back where the tire tech snapped a stud. I replaced the stud, snugged the lugs with 65 ft/lbs torque stick, went to hand torque the wheels to 100 ft/lbs. Probably swung the wrench about 180+ and no click. Didn't even feel like the lug was tightening up. Asked the tire guy how the stud snapped - while torqueing the lugs. I pulled the wheel back off, noticed the anti seize, cleaned, reinstalled the wheel. Only swung the torque wrench about 45 and she clicked

I personally won't anti seize threads on fasteners that hold **** together. I do anti seize things like tie rods ends and the bolt shafts on cam bolts used to make alignment adjustments so the bolt won't seize to the bushing inner sleeve.

If you really feel like you need some lube, I'd stick with a light oil. Shouldn't change the torque value as much and many replacement hubs come with a light coating of oil on everything

 

[dnschmidt]

If I ever decide to lube a bolt or stud (which I normally don't as I use Loctite mostly) I use ARP bolt lube.

 

[thool]

GUILTY. But I also don't re-apply! So on my bi-annual rotation, I'll wipe off any that worked its way out, which isn't much because I use a very thin amount to begin with. It's a must-have for my trailer tires that don't see rotations as much.

 

[mervyn]

I’ve never put anything on wheel studs. I may have squirted a shot of wd40 on rusted to hell nuts back when I Did Triple A roadside.

 

[wazzabie]

How about using WD-40?

 

[Steve_P]

I've used nickel based Never Seez on studs for 20+ years with no ill effects. I've been in tire shops where they also use it, or similar. It doesn't mean the nut will back off, just that it won't get seized. The friction reduction is something like 15% for the nickel product, but I don't bother to reduce the torque.

 

[roc_on_the_rocks]

Hi Everybody,

What is the general consensus; do you use anti-seize on lug studs/nuts, or not.

I do, done it for 30+ years.

 

[OGJordan]

I build cars….I’ve never met a single person that does, only the internet mechanics

 

[JradM]

I had no idea you could put anti-seize on lug nuts until I read this thread. I put it on hub all the time or else I will need to smack the wheel with something heavy, many times, to get it off.

I’ve never had trouble removing a lug I put on though. I bet a majority of the times someone struggles with a lug nut that It a supposedly “corroded stuck” it wasn’t properly torqued in the first place.

This part is pure speculation on my part, but I thought the reason you torque lugs, then drive a few hundred kilometres before torquing again, was because the lugs tend to set in a particular position. I.e. the microscopic surface Imperfections and bolt stretching going on when torqued would cause things to “settle” into a position. I assumed antiseize would tend to undermine that effect.

 

[Skiff Builder]

Been running saltwater boat trailers for 35 years. I run the nuts on dry and torque down. Than I spray the stud/nut with a generous coating of Boeshield T-9.
Next time, after breaking them loose they will spin of the clean stud by hand.

 

[Firebrick43]

Id like to know how one cross threads a lug nut? Do you not start it by hand a few turns first before using am impact? I worked at one shop once and the guy next bay over would put the nut in the socket and start the nut under power with gun. Well of course that is going to greatly up the chances of cross threading. I have NEVER in my 40 years of wrenching on something cross threaded a nut or bolt because I hand start each and every one first before I hit it with a power tool.

Never had either but worked with a guy that started every bolt with an impact. You could hear it when one, and there was at least one in every job, would be cross threaded.

everyone in the shop would yell at him and he would just smile and say cross threads were better than no threads.

we all flat out refused to do flat rate work on the tractors he had previously worked on.

 

[PCustoms]

^^^what an ******

 

[2ndGearRubber]

^^^what an ******

Yeah, **** that guy. Most shops drive them out due to the issues they cause. Mostly you just starve them with LOFs and nothing else.

 

[paulsomlo]

I've been using anti seize for maybe 20 years now, haven't broken a stud or had a wheel fall off yet.

 

[Lucid Moments]

I don't use it, but I am not in the rust belt. I also don't use a torque wrench when tightening lug nuts either though which some people will swear by.

 

[wafrederick]

Anti seize effects the torqueing of the lug nuts down

 

[MeentSS02]

I don't personally use anti-seize on the lugs of any of my 3 vehicles.

I do, however, use a thread cleaning die every once in a while to remove the gunk on the studs:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000P6UNHE/?tag=atomicindus08-20

That set's expensive, but I've found it to be quite useful for many different things.

 

[scooby074]

Antisieze or sheep squeezings on the wheel to rotor/drum contact area. Threads usually bare. In the rust belt on the ocean, all forms of corrosion are a real thing here.

 

[4 FN 27]

I guess this is another place where I'm the odd man out. I have used and will continue to use anti-seize on lug nuts, as well as many other components on vehicles.

Mike I am with you on this topic. Very light coating on all Lug Studs.

In Minnesota the rust on the exposed threads beyond the nut has 100 times the the holding force than a Nylock Nut with a Tack Weld on it.

 

[mikehaugen]

I don't use it much at all anymore... used to use it all of the time but as I became more informed I have not used it as much. I also never used to torque lug nuts... tight as I could with a breaker bar. Actually torquing lug nuts and using no anti size vs over torquing with antisieze I actually find I have less problems now with removing lug nuts.

Also, I believe the coatings they use on fasteners now is better. I have far fewer broken bolts on things made after roughly 2000 vs things made in the 90s or earlier.

 

[anndel]

No, leave them dry.

 

[Vercingetorix]

 

[Glacial_Speed]

I use a light coat of anti-seize on the threads and also on the face of brake rotors.

I had to replace three lug studs on a Chevy S-10 after the nuts had rusted on. The S-10 had those threaded plastic covers for their open lug nuts, which really didn't stop the rust, just hid it so you wouldn't notice. After no movement with a tire iron and then a 20 inch breaker bar, I went to a 4 foot section of cheater bar. The nut remained firmly attached as the lug stud(s) sheared off.

I also had a battle getting a 13" steel wheel off a Toyota Tercel that had bonded itself to the brake rotor. Wondering how hard I could hammer on the tire to break it loose and not damage anything was not fun. A good 1/2 hour later with the help of a 5 pound sledge hammer it eventually came off.

On the roadside, no chance either of them would have come off. I use anti-seize for those reasons.

Experience, it's what you get when you didn't get what you wanted.

 

[Mr_B]

I prefer to use a rust preventative oil spray like Fluid Film or WD-40 Gel Lube Spray & Stay and give the whole hub and mating surface a spritz. With antiseize I'd only do the hub as it's thicker and more likely to cause a vibration/balance issue, or so I've been told more than once.

As far as the studs go nope, but I don't live in the rust belt either. If I did I probably would even though doing so is said to risk overtightening at the specified torque

On that note, I wonder if it would be possible to test by just how much anti-seize on threads actually does cause an overtorque condition. Maybe the guys at YT's Torque Test Chanel could run a series of tests to show just how much it can affect things.

That what I done for decades too, hub face and bore ring important areas be clean and proper fit and benefit from some corrosion prevention films, while not purposely soaking stud threads they get a bit of spray from hitting hub flange and that enough keep corrosion minimal issue to studs and no issue in torque or mess of anti-seize & wheel nuts .
I've worked on hell of a lot of farm equipment where something on wheel studs/flanges would of saved lot of time/effort/money lol .

 

[2ndGearRubber]

That what I done for decades too, hub face and bore ring important areas be clean and proper fit and benefit from some corrosion prevention films, while not purposely soaking stud threads they get a bit of spray from hitting hub flange and that enough keep corrosion minimal issue to studs and no issue in torque or mess of anti-seize & wheel nuts .
I've worked on hell of a lot of farm equipment where something on wheel studs/flanges would of saved lot of time/effort/money lol .

And if theres a bunch of junk and corrosion on the hub ring, the wheel wont sit flush, and will come off anyways.

But that's not as fun to babble about as wheel torque techniques.

 

[Mr_B]

And if theres a bunch of junk and corrosion on the hub ring, the wheel wont sit flush, and will come off anyways.

But that's not as fun to babble about as wheel torque techniques.

yes the flange ring and wheel mating face all important but overlooked a lot as time consuming ****** job if not equipped for it .
Causes all sorts of issues from runout and and as you suggest can be bigger issue to loosing a wheel than nut/stud drama .
From what I seen in over 30 years wheel nuts get whacked on every which way possible resulting in massive range of final torques without massive problems unless severe stupidity at play . Certain amount of corrosion prevention in hub and wheel areas is a must in some regional and use scenarios and been done for decades without technical dramas .

 

[rancherbill]

Absolutely. Changing tires at home is not a problem with air tools, on the side of the road is a different case.

When you are or your family is stuck on the side of the Road that's when you see the value of anti-seize. The wife and daughter do not have strength or body weight to break some rusted nuts.

 

[bigredcornhead]

Typically dry most of the time, but ive put some oil from a can on them rarely, not sure if that is terrible or not.

 

[zmotorsports]

Mike I am with you on this topic. Very light coating on all Lug Studs.

In Minnesota the rust on the exposed threads beyond the nut has 100 times the the holding force than a Nylock Nut with a Tack Weld on it.

Well according to some Pat, we're just those "internet mechanics" and not real mechanics. I wish someone would have told me earlier than I'm not a real mechanic.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Well according to some Pat, we're just those "internet mechanics" and not real mechanics. I wish someone would have told me earlier than I'm not a real mechanic.

A real mechanic uses the internet.... does he change? Or since he was a real mechanic first that's the default?

 

[4 FN 27]

Well according to some Pat, we're just those "internet mechanics" and not real mechanics. I wish someone would have told me earlier than I'm not a real mechanic.

I have my certification.



Opinions and experience vary from one person to the next. I am open to any and all. I will listen, some I will hear and some I will not. There is a difference between listening and hearing. One is noise and the other is a message.

I've never lost a Tire/Rim in my 43 years of driving and servicing Lug Studs with Anti-Seize. I think I will invoke my right to freedom of thought at this point and continue to use Anti-Seize.

This should make some heads spin: I never use Thread Locker of any type on my Scope Mounts (Rings or Rails). Never. Just proper torque for the specific screw size.

 

[zmotorsports]

I have my certification.



Opinions and experience vary from one person to the next. I am open to any and all. I will listen, some I will hear and some I will not. There is a difference between listening and hearing. One is noise and the other is a message.

I've never lost a Tire/Rim in my 43 years of driving and servicing Lug Studs with Anti-Seize. I think I will invoke my right to freedom of thought at this point and continue to use Anti-Seize.

Well said Pat. We all base our opinions based on personal experience and personal experiences are just that, personal. What one person experiences may or may not be the same as someone else. I generally fall back on what I know based on years of wrenching and that seems to be my first level of knowledge. Secondly to that I use the internet to gain information that can then be absorbed into my skillset based on my experience with it. If my experience is negative with said information then my opinion would be it is wrong. IF my experience is affirmative to said information then my experience and therefore opinion would more than likely be supportive of the information.

If I lost a wheel by using anti-seize the first time, then it would strongly support the NON-use of anti-seize. Seeing as how our opinions and similar it is safe to assume that our experiences have supported the use of anti-seize regardless of what others say but then again our experiences may have other variables involved such as torque reductions, etc.

On the couple of forums that I frequent I have a tendency to get to know certain members by their posts and over time have formed an opinion of them based on their responses to either support or contradict the topic at hand. This is just based on my previous interactions or viewing the responses on many threads over time. There are some members that I respect so much that I almost immediately agree with them based on my respect level regardless of the topic at hand and even whether I know anything about the topic or not. Then there are some that I would disagree with for the same reasons based solely on past responses. I would assume this is probably the same with many forum members and not just me but I could be wrong.

If someone I respect based on previous topics has an opinion that is different than mine, I am more inclined to think it through a bit more and give it some serious thought. If someone posts something and I recognize the forum member as someone whom I routinely disagree with, I may not give it a second thought and just chock it up to our differences.

I'm not sure if that is right or wrong but that seems to be the way I tend to gravitate. I have learned a LOT from fellow forum members that I have disagreed with on certain topics because we have a tendency to agree on most topics. That is one thing I like about this forum so much is the commonality yet diversity, if that makes any sense.

 

[tomtomgt356]

 

[Steve_P]

There is NO difference between a wheel stud/bolt and any other bolt or nut. I never knew that some anti-seize mfgs didn't recommend it for wheel bolts/studs. Why? It's obviously a liability prevention. Because if someone put it on their wheel studs, didn't properly tighten them, and the wheel fell off, they'd find a ***** lawyer that'd file a lawsuit. So they say "don't use on wheel studs". Lawsuit prevention done.
But again, there is no difference between a wheel stud/bolt or any other bolt. It is 100% the same thing- it's a threaded fastener. I've driven 500K+ miles with anti-seez on wheel studs. And every car that I take the wheels off has it on it- so at least another 1 million miles on all of them. No wheel losses. And I use it on brake disc/drums where they contact the axle flange.

 

[scooby074]

Paging TorqueTestChannel to the Antisieze thread...TorqueTestChannel to the Antisieze thread...