Antique “Spot” and “Plain” Clock-like Tool/Measuring Device
- Thread starter Casey69
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RTM
Well-known member
The dials look like a gas or electric meter.
Label says what
shimmin Manafort? Can't read it behind the glare or hand.
Label says what
shimmin Manafort? Can't read it behind the glare or hand.
yatg
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Any connectors on the back?
Miss the Pontiacs
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Timer for playing chess.
larry4406
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It says “SPOT” on the right dial not SPDT.
4xdog
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Looks like it reads “SPOT” unambiguously.
rlitman
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Except it goes to 50 x 1000, because there are three inset dials.
How do the hands move? Is there a timer inside?
Private Lugnutz
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Can you share a photo of the side connectors?
RTM
Well-known member
Slight chance each rotation of the main dial only moves the inset dials half an increment.
sorry, didn’t take enough pics! The right and left side just had what looked to be a recessed eyelet for a cable or some attachment. I’ve been doing web searches with the manufacturer (W. Shimmin) and can’t find anything. Really weird that there’s no information on it or even the terms for “spot” and “plain”. Must have been used for something very specialized and/or not used for a long period of time, otherwise there’d likely be more information abound it? Not a big deal. Just curious on its origin and use.
Private Lugnutz
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What's the word under that?
Private Lugnutz
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Hmm. That is not registering as a location anywhere at all. My hunch is Maryport. The lettering on the gauge face looks very Germanic, which has strange letters, including the "s", notably, and the "y". Look at the pic below. It's an excerpt I made of British placenames in a German gazetteer. See Manchefter und Leeds? (That's "Manchester and Leeds"). Look at the "n" in Manchester, then look at the "y" in Derby, down below, after Midland, then go back and look at the town underneath Manchester. That's not Marnport; it's Maryport. A seafaring and mining town in Cumbria, England. Could the faceplate on the gauges say "Maryport" in German?
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Private Lugnutz
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There's definitely evidence of people with the surname Shimmin in Maryport, England.
A George F. Shimmin was granted two (2) US patents (1,157,431 and 1,166,156) for a motorcycle frame and spring-fork in 1915.
And if that's a "W." as we think, there's even a William Shimmin, who had some kind of an industrial accident in 1931. The title of the record says "Railway" but the entry indicates West Side, Elizabeth Dock, Maryport. According to the snippet-only view (protected by copyright), it looks like it occurred when he was working as a "coal tipper" (shoveling coal into the boiler), but it indicates that he was a "fitter" (steam/pipe) by job title, which is a little warmer, no pun intended, for gauges. Could they be steam gauges? PSI is not out of the question. Why his name would be on them, and why it would be on them in Germanic text, I'm not sure.
A George F. Shimmin was granted two (2) US patents (1,157,431 and 1,166,156) for a motorcycle frame and spring-fork in 1915.
And if that's a "W." as we think, there's even a William Shimmin, who had some kind of an industrial accident in 1931. The title of the record says "Railway" but the entry indicates West Side, Elizabeth Dock, Maryport. According to the snippet-only view (protected by copyright), it looks like it occurred when he was working as a "coal tipper" (shoveling coal into the boiler), but it indicates that he was a "fitter" (steam/pipe) by job title, which is a little warmer, no pun intended, for gauges. Could they be steam gauges? PSI is not out of the question. Why his name would be on them, and why it would be on them in Germanic text, I'm not sure.
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Private Lugnutz
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I suppose the fact that a William Shimmin lived in Maryport and worked for the RR as an engine fitter (and later as a Locomotive foreman) could be just a red herring. If so, it would have to be considered a wildly coincidental one! There are several entries for a William Shimmin in the Cumbria Railways Historical Society's surname database. I think it's the same guy (and maybe a son) and the society used multiple sources from multiple times.
If you want to chase this William Shimmin engine fitter lead further, I would contact this group, send them a photo of your gauges with the "W. Shimmin Maryport" marking visible to hook their interest, tell them you used their database, and see if they have any technical experts who might be interested in explaining what the dials are.
www.cumbrianrailways.org.uk
And/or same thing with this group...
I don't know if two gauges, one for PLAIN and one for SPOT, each with three additional embedded gauges, even makes sense, but for more context, the Maryport and Carlisle RR was famous in that region of England, Wiki link here, and this 3-1/2" model is lovely, regardless.
If you want to chase this William Shimmin engine fitter lead further, I would contact this group, send them a photo of your gauges with the "W. Shimmin Maryport" marking visible to hook their interest, tell them you used their database, and see if they have any technical experts who might be interested in explaining what the dials are.
About Cumbrian Railways and the Association – Cumbrian Railways Association
www.cumbrianrailways.org.uk
And/or same thing with this group...
I don't know if two gauges, one for PLAIN and one for SPOT, each with three additional embedded gauges, even makes sense, but for more context, the Maryport and Carlisle RR was famous in that region of England, Wiki link here, and this 3-1/2" model is lovely, regardless.
Hush your mouth!
We have to figure this out. This is quite intriguing.It would be great to see the inside of this thing so we would know what it is measuring. I'm disinclined to think that it is measuring pressure or flow, or any variable with a magnitude that goes up and down - due to the additional small dials. Seems like it is measuring something that counts up, like distance or length or time or the number of objects. However, if it measured time, and it is as old as it looks, it would have to have a wind-up mechanism. Did it have a winder knob on the back?
I've been searching and I'm not ready to give up.
There was a turn of the century Shimmin Brothers Drug in Buffalo, Minnesota. That in itself does not seem to be significant except that it has has a clock outside that supposedly says "Shimmin Jewelry". If this device were measuring time, it could have been created by a jeweler.
c1900s Shimmin Brothers Drugstore Buffalo Minnesota
Oldtuleguy
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This is mind teaser
Farmer J.
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Yea.
All I can find out for sure is that Shimmin is a surname originating from Isle of Man (Not far off shore from Maryport, Cumbria where Lugz's railway guys were).
In surveying measurements 'Plain' means a horizontal distance which disregards the curvature of the earth, and 'Spot' is a measure of height at a single point. I don't see how this instrument would measure or record those figures though.
OH! Oh Oh. That's great information. In my research I came across Shimmin that was a surveyor.
W. Shimmin in the 1912 "The Surveyor And Municipal and County Engineer":
The Surveyor and Municipal Engineer
Farmer J.
Well-known member
Before I fall asleep again, had this idea.
Perhaps it's an 'adding machine' for surveyors to record an accurate total of the many small readings taken as a survey progress over a large distance, and saves the chore of manually adding and subtracting the many figures, and achieves accuracy by eliminating mistakes by doing manual calculations in a notebook. Maybe the holes in the side of it are for crank handles or some means of turning the dials manually, then the large dials and the inset ones would record a total figure for elevation and for horizontally measured distance.
Perhaps it's an 'adding machine' for surveyors to record an accurate total of the many small readings taken as a survey progress over a large distance, and saves the chore of manually adding and subtracting the many figures, and achieves accuracy by eliminating mistakes by doing manual calculations in a notebook. Maybe the holes in the side of it are for crank handles or some means of turning the dials manually, then the large dials and the inset ones would record a total figure for elevation and for horizontally measured distance.
Private Lugnutz
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No worries. As you can see, everybody loves a mystery, and some of us love research.
But what about the "Maryport"? There's no shortage of Shimmins in the world. But we can't ignore the "Maryport."
They are problematic. I've been trying to think about why the middle dial would need to run CCW (engaged by the CW one to its left, and engaging the CW one to its right), and also why they were placed to the right on the PLAIN gauge and to the left on the SPOT gauge.
Ricky Joe
Well-known member
My only contribution so far is to say that this is the best thread I have ever seen in GJ in ten years of participation. Lugz has done especially fine work researching and analyzing. So far, my best guess is that it could be a way of measuring water for steam on a locomotive, but that leaves far too much room for doubt in speculation. Farmer J. has also brought good possibilities to consider. Keep the research going!
After Maryport the next stop on the line is Workington. Keep working on it.
Before digital dials there were cyclometer dials and before them were clock dials like the above which have alternate rotations. Most all of those electric power meters have been replaced decades ago.
Before digital dials there were cyclometer dials and before them were clock dials like the above which have alternate rotations. Most all of those electric power meters have been replaced decades ago.
yatg
Well-known member
In the old days, topo surveying was done on a 50' grid, and the main dial goes 0-50.
That half assed cropped picture only shows the dials. No sense of scale or overall shape of the thing or what the inputs are.
Hardly multiple decades. Mainly in the last 15 years or so electric companies have been migrating to digital smart meters. I know my electric meter went from dials to digital within the last 10 years. My gas meter is a remote reader but it still has dials.
RTM
Well-known member
In the 40s, there was an engineer dealing in piezoelectric stuff. Were those sensitive enough to be used in surveying back then. Showed up in some GE publications.
Is that portable enough for field work?
Is that portable enough for field work?
Geographically, where was this object at when it was photographed?
Farmer J.
Well-known member
Good question.
I wonder if there is, or was a Maryport in the USA or other places in the world? So very often there are duplicate place names in the New World as colonists made their homes there. I can only find the one in Cumbria, which was created and laid out and plots sold in 1749-69.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Were there smaller inset dials to count past that, tallying each revolution of 0-50' that the main dial took?
It is a good question. As an antique, it may have traveled, though. Not saying it's a steam gauge, but steam gauges, just for example, are highly prized collectibles. Others may be as well. In other words, I wouldn't be surprised if Casey69 is in the US. If he's in England, though, I would surely start to dig deeper into the industries of Cumbria with historical societies.
That we don't know for sure what that marking signifies still bothers me.
Initially I thought manufacturing, for example. Name of company and location under it. But nothing we have found supports the idea of a Shimmin company making any kind of gauges in Maryport.
It could be proprietary. Name of owner/user. Note that the 'PLAIN' and 'SPOT' markings are not rendered in the same style as the 'W. Shimmin' / 'Maryport', supporting the idea that they were made at different times, or at least by different people/entities. But it's an odd space to be left free for a fancy proprietary marking. And I have to admit, having one's name on one's instrument doesn't seem to jibe with William Shimmin, part-time coal tipper, apprentice fitter, engine fitter, and later locomotive foreman for the M&C Railway Co., even if the multiple dials could be made to make sense for steam, water, or hydraulic pressure in primitive engines.
I can envision a scenario in which a professional tradesman (whether fitter, boilerman or surveyor or what have you) who has risen to a certain station, or even one with just a clever peculiar knack for gadgets, could fashion himself a device for special measurements, and mark it as his, but this is all just grasping at straws.
rlitman
Well-known member
With the wired connection, could this be an output from an electro-mechanical integrator? Like a rudimentary planimeter?
RTM
Well-known member
When I put Maryport in to google maps, only the UK location comes up.
RTM
Well-known member
Rather than just railways, this link might get you more industries to dig into. From the same place as Lugz' second linkIf you want to chase this William Shimmin engine fitter lead further, I would contact this group, send them a photo of your gauges with the "W. Shimmin Maryport" marking visible to hook their interest, tell them you used their database, and see if they have any technical experts who might be interested in explaining what the dials are.
About Cumbrian Railways and the Association – Cumbrian Railways Association
And/or same thing with this group...
Here is a list of the WILLIAM Shimmin's related to Lugz' locomotive-related Shimmins (or at least what I could come up with in a quick search). I tried to find their occupations to see if there was anything more that might relate to the device. Did not have any obvious luck in the predecessors or immediate offspring,
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Good question. Just to be clear, I am not sure that we have positively concluded that it has a wired connection, just that it "looked like" a cable could connect to it.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
@Casey69,
In looking back at your initial post and subsequent replies, it's not entirely clear if the device is in your possession or not.
If it is, please take and post several more photos. Whole front. Whole back. Sides. Top. And close-ups of any view of the internals from the back, if possible, including connections. And one of the "W. Shimmin / Maryport" marking that is free and clear of glare. THANKS.
If not, please say so, because that would slow this train down right quick.
In looking back at your initial post and subsequent replies, it's not entirely clear if the device is in your possession or not.
If it is, please take and post several more photos. Whole front. Whole back. Sides. Top. And close-ups of any view of the internals from the back, if possible, including connections. And one of the "W. Shimmin / Maryport" marking that is free and clear of glare. THANKS.
If not, please say so, because that would slow this train down right quick.
Oldtuleguy
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Maybe just a fancy tool for foundations or fences