Anyone have Geothermal heating systems? If so how are they working out for you? Whats the heat like and what kind of cost per month to run through the winter, I'am in Western Pa so we get some cold winters here. Would you do it again? What might be a ballpark cost to have Geothermal system put in for a average home?
Any members have Geothermal heating?
- Thread starter theo2
- Start date
4 FN 27
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Yes.
House and shop are both Geo.
House has 3 forced air Heat Pumps and 1 more Heat Pump for the In-Floor Radiant. The reason for the triple system is to keep the house balanced. First Floor, Second Floor and Bonus Room above the Garage.
Shop has 1 Forced Air Heat Pump mainly for Air Conditioning but will kick in to "recover" a room faster when a Garage Door is opened to bring something in or out. There are also 2 Heat Pumps for the Radiant In-Floor. Building is 10574 +/- square feet.
Anything I build in the future will have Geo. In MN the electric rate is 50 cents on the dollar for Geo.
Main thing when doing Geo is making sure the system is designed correctly. The average HVAC installer is more than likely not going to have the best plan. Go right to a Geo Installer where these types of systems are all they do.
Now I am sure the usual naysayers are going to pipe up like they do in every other Geo Thread and tell you about the guy they "know/heard about/read about" who's system doesn't work. They will also bash the Loop Fields being too small to. Just a heads up.
I am more than pleased with our systems.
Cost wise I could not tell you. We did the house in 2008-09 and the shop in 2015. Things have changed since then. We had a 30% federal Tax Credit on both systems. Not sure if that is available still???
Any contractor bidding worth their salt will know what State and Federal Tax breaks are currently active. They should also know what programs are available from the POCO for KWH discounts.
House and shop are both Geo.
House has 3 forced air Heat Pumps and 1 more Heat Pump for the In-Floor Radiant. The reason for the triple system is to keep the house balanced. First Floor, Second Floor and Bonus Room above the Garage.
Shop has 1 Forced Air Heat Pump mainly for Air Conditioning but will kick in to "recover" a room faster when a Garage Door is opened to bring something in or out. There are also 2 Heat Pumps for the Radiant In-Floor. Building is 10574 +/- square feet.
Anything I build in the future will have Geo. In MN the electric rate is 50 cents on the dollar for Geo.
Main thing when doing Geo is making sure the system is designed correctly. The average HVAC installer is more than likely not going to have the best plan. Go right to a Geo Installer where these types of systems are all they do.
Now I am sure the usual naysayers are going to pipe up like they do in every other Geo Thread and tell you about the guy they "know/heard about/read about" who's system doesn't work. They will also bash the Loop Fields being too small to. Just a heads up.
I am more than pleased with our systems.
Cost wise I could not tell you. We did the house in 2008-09 and the shop in 2015. Things have changed since then. We had a 30% federal Tax Credit on both systems. Not sure if that is available still???
Any contractor bidding worth their salt will know what State and Federal Tax breaks are currently active. They should also know what programs are available from the POCO for KWH discounts.
jack stand
Well-known member
4 FN 27
Would you recommend the air/water heat pump for radiant without some fossil or geo backup?
I am contemplating an addition and am unable to tie it into my (wood) boiler that serves the rest of my in slab radiant.
Would you recommend the air/water heat pump for radiant without some fossil or geo backup?
I am contemplating an addition and am unable to tie it into my (wood) boiler that serves the rest of my in slab radiant.
4 FN 27
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Both of our Radiant systems are water to water so I don't have any experience with air/water systems. With that said if I could redo 1 zone in the shop it would be the office. I would have added a couple of water to air radiators. A wood floor was added on top of the concrete and acts as an insulator until completely heat soaked. When the temps fall fast the Forced Air system will kick in a few times to help temper the air in the office to 68° until the wood floor catches up.
Both the shop and the house systems are set up to either run directly off a NG Boiler or use the NG Boiler to supplement the Heat Pumps when temps go below -9° F if needed. I have only seen the Boiler run a handful of time to supplement the house system. Never in the shop.
The main reason for the NG Boiler is our POCO's Back-up Relief Program. You need to have both Heat Pumps and the Boiler tied into the system to get the discount rate on the KWH's.
pcmeiners
Well-known member
Excel Spreadsheet calculator, you can change the variables...;...
fitter30
Well-known member
Geo is the most efficient(400%) system for heat and ac made. Having a heat pump using 45-55° ground temp to either pull or to get rid of heat at ground temp make the system so efficient. Can also use it for domestic hot water. Use a company that has done a lot of systems the field or bore holes have to right because they should be good for at least 50 years+.
Back in the late 70’s I installed geo systems fed by a swimming pool. These were in the Napa Valley, so a moderate climate. A glazed solar system heated the covered pool maintaining operating temps. Summer time the system heated the pool.
My Old Tools
Well-known member
I had a lake coupled Waterfurnace geo installed at Christmas. We had a small water leak in the tubing the first week that caused it to freeze the heat exchanger. After that was dealt with it has been fine. Our lake has run between 46 and 60 degrees this winter. My heating has run from $0.80 to $8.00 a day depending on ambient temperatures, mostly around $1.50. I spent $1000 on propane in November and December before it was installed along with the cost of the conventional heat pumps I had. I haven't done a summer yet, but last summer I had 3 bills over $500 and another 2 around $400. Mine is a Waterfurnace 7 series, variable speed compressor, fan, and pumps. I expect it will save me at least 50% on my cooling and heating bills. We used the Slim Jim Geo Lake Plate and oversized it, 5 ton unit with an 8 ton plate.
gsmith22
Well-known member
Have two waterfurnace 7 series variable speed water to air heat pumps heating the house - forced air zoned via units with 1 unit for each floor. They share a ground loop consisting of three vertical bores. All installed in 2019. The system has been fantastic and i would never consider going back to the propane furnaces/elec a/c we had previously (actually had our 500 gallon propane tank pulled out of the ground after the install).
as was pointed out above, the main reason people have bad experiences with geo is the system design. If you hear something bad about geo its either going to be it costs too much (not arguing but you pay upfront and reap rewards later) or their system isn't properly designed/installed in some capcity. For residential work, the contractor essentially is the designer and most contractors are just parts hangers - they don't really understand where the design bottlenecks are and really only know what has worked for them in the past (ie no complaints). Its not all contractors but there are more like this than not. I would approach an install by having a very good idea about what is actually needed to be able to weed out the parts hangers from someone that can truly design a good system. To do that, you really need to know what the heat loss/gain of the house is - look to https://www.coolcalc.com/ its free to use online. With heat loss/heat gain known, you can size an appropriate unit with your particular heat pump manufacturer (I'm partial to the variable speed units from Waterfurnace but I would recommend 2 stage units at a minimum). Next size the ground heat exchanger - look to https://looplinkrlc.com/login/?next=/. its also free to use online. Lots of different ground loop configurations built it to the program. Finally, get the water flow between the ground loop and units correct by determinig how big/small the heat exchanger piping needs to be. Geo-flo's design calculators are the best I ran across and used them extensively https://geo-flo.com/calculators/ again, free to use online. I would also look to https://www.geoexchange.org/forum/ for geo specific information.
at the time of install, my calcs showed I would break even on install cost at about 7 years due to increases in efficiency over prior heating, no longer having cost of propane and considering increased cost of electirc use. propane has skyrocketed since then, elec rates stayed the same and we have had some cold winters (not this one) so break even is probably closer to 6 years now. Just installed a ground mount solar array so all power needed to run the geo now comes from the sun. can't do that with propane (or natural gas)
jkeyser14
Well-known member
Yes. This is our secomd home we installed geothermal into. I would never go back to anything else. We don't use set backs. Just set the temperature and leave it. Payback for us on both houses was 6 to 7 years.
Fav Onefour
Well-known member
I have a few different geo systems.
@theo2 , Are you doing this as a retrofit? If so, what type of system? I ask because that changes my advice.
Two of mine are combo heat with water-water in half the space and forced air across water coil for the other half. Those both use a tank storage and pump water when stats call for heat or cooling. They kick on the heat pump when the storage tank needs more hot or cold. Those systems are pretty efficient for heating. The water storage setup can hold heat well. They are not so good for cooling. The temp variance isn't as great with water as the storage medium. That issue also makes it harder to manage humidity with less condensate collection. Both of those systems use resistance coils as backup on the forced air side of the system. The coil backup only covers the forced air sections in the home and it is crazy expensive to run. Switching between cool and heat or vise versa requires charging the entire water storage over. It's not something you do back and forth.
My other system was a retrofit in a multi-zone forced air only setup. It has a standard furnace backup based on the dual fuel requirement. The furnace has an oversized evap in the plenum for temp exchange. That works both cooling and heat with a reversing valve and controls. The furnace supplies airflow with a basic fan setup. This setup was installed in 2003 with older tech. The triple stage ramp up and multi zone heating/cooling was a challenge. It flipped up and down between stages too often and lost efficiency. The original heat pump was a piston jobber too. That ****** would dim the lights and scare the pets on those flips. Based on that experience, I would have told you to stay away from a retrofit.
But, things change. I upgraded the heat pump to a ramp up scroll and replaced the controllers with new stuff that actually works. This setup works quite well. It never touches the backup stages anymore with the same loop field. (The extra capacity is in the efficiency.) The stats tie into the controllers seamlessly and the system is quiet.
If I was doing another setup in a new build, I also would do things a little different.
I'd do a combo heat system with radiant in lower floor slabs and forced air for uppers.
The heat side of water to water is efficient and super quiet. I'd use that style for heat and convert to an evap setup on the cooling side when it's needed. I do like the simplicity of using a standard furnace as the backup source if needed. You would already be installing ductwork, fan setup, and exchanger without a furnace. Might as well just do the whole thing and be done. It's getting easier to integrate controllers with new furnaces as well.
@theo2 , Are you doing this as a retrofit? If so, what type of system? I ask because that changes my advice.
Two of mine are combo heat with water-water in half the space and forced air across water coil for the other half. Those both use a tank storage and pump water when stats call for heat or cooling. They kick on the heat pump when the storage tank needs more hot or cold. Those systems are pretty efficient for heating. The water storage setup can hold heat well. They are not so good for cooling. The temp variance isn't as great with water as the storage medium. That issue also makes it harder to manage humidity with less condensate collection. Both of those systems use resistance coils as backup on the forced air side of the system. The coil backup only covers the forced air sections in the home and it is crazy expensive to run. Switching between cool and heat or vise versa requires charging the entire water storage over. It's not something you do back and forth.
My other system was a retrofit in a multi-zone forced air only setup. It has a standard furnace backup based on the dual fuel requirement. The furnace has an oversized evap in the plenum for temp exchange. That works both cooling and heat with a reversing valve and controls. The furnace supplies airflow with a basic fan setup. This setup was installed in 2003 with older tech. The triple stage ramp up and multi zone heating/cooling was a challenge. It flipped up and down between stages too often and lost efficiency. The original heat pump was a piston jobber too. That ****** would dim the lights and scare the pets on those flips. Based on that experience, I would have told you to stay away from a retrofit.
But, things change. I upgraded the heat pump to a ramp up scroll and replaced the controllers with new stuff that actually works. This setup works quite well. It never touches the backup stages anymore with the same loop field. (The extra capacity is in the efficiency.) The stats tie into the controllers seamlessly and the system is quiet.
If I was doing another setup in a new build, I also would do things a little different.
I'd do a combo heat system with radiant in lower floor slabs and forced air for uppers.
The heat side of water to water is efficient and super quiet. I'd use that style for heat and convert to an evap setup on the cooling side when it's needed. I do like the simplicity of using a standard furnace as the backup source if needed. You would already be installing ductwork, fan setup, and exchanger without a furnace. Might as well just do the whole thing and be done. It's getting easier to integrate controllers with new furnaces as well.
I am renovating a 3500 sq ft house in Massachusetts and swapping out the existing oil fired HW baseboard heat and central AC for a heat pump. I have price quotes for ground source (geo) and air source heat pumps. Adding radiant floor to any of these systems adds another $25K
Two geo contractors quoted Water Furnace systems and both quotes were north of $100K including removal of old systems, well drilling, new install. The well quotes ranged from $15K - $25K, new equipment and install around $65K and the rest for demo, permits, etc. Geo systems have a $15K rebate from the state
I have air source quotes from contractors for Fujitsu and Mitsubishi mini splits and Space Pak air-to-water. The space pak quote was around $85K including hot water. The mini split systems both came in around $55K, but that did not include hot water. Air source systems have a $10K rebate from the state
Geo has a 30% tax credit, which puts the final cost close to the Space Pak, but I'd have to put out the money up front and wait until next year for the credit. Since this is part of a larger and much more expensive renovation project, I don't have a spare $100K laying around right now.
Any of these will be more efficient than the existing oil/AC combo. I'm probably going with the Mitsubishi mini split because I'm not sure I'll live long enough to see a return on investment on any of the other systems over that one.
The systems are probably cheaper in other parts of the country, but labor costs are insane and plumbers and HVAC companies are making bank (because they can - supply and demand my friends)
Two geo contractors quoted Water Furnace systems and both quotes were north of $100K including removal of old systems, well drilling, new install. The well quotes ranged from $15K - $25K, new equipment and install around $65K and the rest for demo, permits, etc. Geo systems have a $15K rebate from the state
I have air source quotes from contractors for Fujitsu and Mitsubishi mini splits and Space Pak air-to-water. The space pak quote was around $85K including hot water. The mini split systems both came in around $55K, but that did not include hot water. Air source systems have a $10K rebate from the state
Geo has a 30% tax credit, which puts the final cost close to the Space Pak, but I'd have to put out the money up front and wait until next year for the credit. Since this is part of a larger and much more expensive renovation project, I don't have a spare $100K laying around right now.
Any of these will be more efficient than the existing oil/AC combo. I'm probably going with the Mitsubishi mini split because I'm not sure I'll live long enough to see a return on investment on any of the other systems over that one.
The systems are probably cheaper in other parts of the country, but labor costs are insane and plumbers and HVAC companies are making bank (because they can - supply and demand my friends)
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Multiple heat pumps are a great solution. Expensive to install, but very cost effective to run !
What is your backup heat source ?
Trying not to be a "nay sayer", but those who ARE unhappy, the most likely cause IS loop field size. This is why, if I ever installed one, I would use wells. You CAN. add another well.
One other thing I would want is a temperature gauge on the outgoing and return water. If your return water is below 45°F you have a problem !
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Why do none of the major manufacturers heat pump advertise refrigrant-to-water heat exchangers for retrofit to existing hot water system ? Sure, you still need refrigrant-to-air heat exchangers to cooling but then you would have the best of both worlds !
4 FN 27
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Natural Gas Boilers on both systems.
I was waiting to see you appear...LOL...you are not trying very hard.
Their systems were not designed correctly. I have Wells for the House System and a Loop Field for the shop.
-20° F everything in the shop keeps up. The house does call for the Gas Boiler on occasion but that is by design. Our systems were designed to call for back up at -9°F. So if anything our Wells/Loop Fields are too big or the system is more efficient.
LOL...our return water is in the high 30's/low 40's because we are pulling heat out efficiently. And no problems. You will only have problem if the return water freezes or gets slushy. And believe it or not the fix to thaw the lines is turn on the AC for 10 minutes. Then ad more Glycol which should have been done in the first place and checked with a Refractometer after a few hours of circulating the system.
Best part is last months heating bill for the shop, all 10500+ feet of it was $185-187 and some change. Minnesnowta Winters are not for the faint of heart.
I would never seek advise on which Pick-up Truck to buy from somebody who has never owned or driven one. Same goes for Geothermal Systems.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Short burst of AC is what most air-to-coolant heat pumps do !
High 30s would make me nervous ! A lot depends on what temperature the compressor and orifice are designed to work at. You have an EXCELLENT backup system !
Anyone who lives in a region where outside temps regularly get below freezing needs a backup heating system, even if it is just wood/propane fireplace. Of course, a couple of day of fuel needs to be on hand !
Maxcustody
Well-known member
I am replacing my current geothermal system originally put in 2007, we are not the original owners of the house. Primary heat source was radiant floor heat with a 6 ton water to water closed loop system, as well as a 5 ton heat pump for AC and heat if needed.
Short version is radiant is bad, we are draining, capping off and not replacing it. We are removing everything above ground and replacing it with a 6 ton water furnace. The cost for everything and additional; new water heater, additional storage tank and a Aprilair steam humidifier is 30k. Again closed loop system already exists.
There is a tax credit we can use next year, however looking over it quickly, we can only deduct so much each year and not the full amount at once.
We are waiting on the water furnace that is being built, time frame is 6-8 weeks. Guys were here yesterday measuring everything and compiling new parts list.
Short version is radiant is bad, we are draining, capping off and not replacing it. We are removing everything above ground and replacing it with a 6 ton water furnace. The cost for everything and additional; new water heater, additional storage tank and a Aprilair steam humidifier is 30k. Again closed loop system already exists.
There is a tax credit we can use next year, however looking over it quickly, we can only deduct so much each year and not the full amount at once.
We are waiting on the water furnace that is being built, time frame is 6-8 weeks. Guys were here yesterday measuring everything and compiling new parts list.
Savings for Homeowners
New federal income tax credits are available through 2032 providing up to $3,200 annually to lower the cost of energy efficient home upgrades by up to 30 percent.4 FN 27
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Why?
My Old Tools
Well-known member
My Waterfurnace 7 series 5 ton with 3 zones was $37k. That included the 8 ton Slim Jim lake plate, variable speed pumps, removal of two old heat pumps, new 80 foot trunk and return to the old duct system, and a few new registers. We dropped the plate in 15 feet of water in a 50 acre spring fed lake. Heating season was relatively mild, still waiting for the summer heat to set in. A few 90 degree days have cost me about $2 each. This house is 20 years old, 3800sf, 36 large windows (32x72) aluminum single hung double pane with transoms over, typical 4" bat wall insulation, and 20+ inches blown in the attic. We're all on level, a long ranch style that has 12 foot ceilings and every room can see the lake.
How deep do you go for that warm of a temp?
My well water is about 130ft down and it's about 35-38* year round.
When something shits the bed on the other heat system, power goes out, etc.
I couldn't even imagine heating a 10,000 sq ft house.
That's bigger than the WAREHOUSE I work out of. It's 80x120
My old house I heated on about 2.5 cords of wood and $300 of gas a year. the gas mostly for the garage, water heater, dryer, cook stove.
New place is just gas and cost me $1200 last year.
4 FN 27
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Who has a 10000 sq ft house?
You
danski0224
Well-known member
Home size was not stated, just shop size.
danski0224
Well-known member
The big cost is the wells or loop field.
Your location will dictate number of wells and depth for X tons of capacity, each. Depth and soil dictates well cost.
Have to have enough property to do a loop field. You have to have enough wells for system capacity.
Heat output temperature will be similar to an air source heat pump. Maybe 100 degrees, thereabouts. Less than fossil fuel heating.
A "geothermal" system as described here is a heat pump that uses ground source water (the wells) as the cooling medium for the refrigerant condenser instead of air. It is not geothermal like heating systems in Iceland.
Big commercial buildings use a similar process. There is a chiller (or chillers) to reject heat and water lines that go to heat pumps from the chiller(s) in the ceiling with ductwork from those.
One big unknown is the long term viability of the wells, including the tubing that is put into them and encased in grout. The well loop tubing used to be advertised as good for 50 years (have not looked recently).
The wells have to be spaced a certain distance apart, so adding more later can be an issue.
The efficiency (COP) numbers are real, as it is a heat pump. But the upfront cost is very high, much higher than a top of the line air source split type heat pump.
There are VRF (variable refrigerant flow) systems that claim to have good cold weather performance.
The common problem is that all of these systems are "bleeding edge" compared to a plain old HVAC system, and there are MANY posts on this forum about hacks with "simple" systems. This equipment has to be sized, installed and maintained properly to even have a hope of getting claimed efficiency numbers. Good luck with that.
The chiller + individual heat pumps is closest to something that is "common", but not in residential stuff.
I would HIGHLY recommend educating yourself, as mentioned by others, BEFORE shopping for bids.
If this is for new construction, I would spend the money on best building practices (air sealing and insulation) before spending the money on very high dollar HVAC equipment and standard building practices.
Honestly, you probably need to hire an engineer (or some other Qualified Person) to design the system and come up with Plans and Specifications to be used to then find a qualified contractor. At least by doing it this way, the bids will be comparable. You may need to find a well contractor and an equipment contractor.
Last edited:
4 FN 27
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pcmeiners
Well-known member
Choose carefully on heat pumps. At this time high efficiency air to air pumps can average a COP over 4 . So if your going for the added expense of geothermal, make sure it beats an average COP of 4. Sales people will sell you anything, especially if it makes them rich.
"The common problem is that all of these systems are "bleeding edge" compared to a plain old HVAC system, and there are MANY posts on this forum about hacks with "simple" systems."
Geothermal is not bleeding edge, it has been around for quite a while. Yes it does involve hack artists, but it is also about the added cost of engineers and geothermal experts.
"Honestly, you probably need to hire an engineer (or some other Qualified Person) to design the system and come up with Plans and Specifications to be used to then find a qualified contractor. At least by doing it this way, the bids will be comparable."
The best only way of getting accurate bids. 
"The common problem is that all of these systems are "bleeding edge" compared to a plain old HVAC system, and there are MANY posts on this forum about hacks with "simple" systems."
Geothermal is not bleeding edge, it has been around for quite a while. Yes it does involve hack artists, but it is also about the added cost of engineers and geothermal experts.
"Honestly, you probably need to hire an engineer (or some other Qualified Person) to design the system and come up with Plans and Specifications to be used to then find a qualified contractor. At least by doing it this way, the bids will be comparable."
The
danski0224
Well-known member
The high end equipment IS bleeding edge when compared to standard "builders grade" HVAC equipment.
fitter30
Well-known member
Normally vertical holes 100 - 400' most are 200' per ton of cooling. Horizontal loops 10 - 20' 1/4 to 1/2 acre. Use a polyethylene pipe that is backfilled with bentonite or a mix for the best thermal conductivity. Can also get domestic hot water.
Geothermal Heat Pumps
Geothermal heat pumps are expensive to install but pay for themselves over time in reduced heating and cooling costs.
Fav Onefour
Well-known member
I had to look up the use of "bleeding edge" in this discussion.
We had one system that would have fallen under that description when it was installed in 2003. Honestly, it was because the contractor wasn't familiar with residential systems. Their experience was in big commercial stuff doing fantastic vertical loop fields. They were not adept at controls. It took them extra time to get it right. The initial setup used external relays to step the stages and it wasn't a smooth transition. In simple language, the heat pump would shut down each time it ramped to another stage. Thankfully, they had sized the system correctly and it came down to simplifying the process of managing stages and zone control.
The control tech has evolved a lot since 03 and there is stuff out there that is dang near plug and play even for complex systems.
Here's the deal with that fact. Find a contractor that is adept with these systems. Geo systems are generally sized right at the fringe of capacity because of the high up front input costs. If they get it wrong, you can fight the system for it's lifetime.
There are plenty of "traditional" HVAC setups that are way oversized for their need. Contractors have played around with fluff capacity for years. Some have done it for the quick profit and some based on customer request. There are Geo installers that might play that game, but they don't hang around long. Not many customers have a love affair with throwing away money.
On the topic of bleeding edge tech. We also have a heat only system that was done in a new build in 97. It was done with the KISS principle. The system is a simple radiant heat setup with "hot" water storage for the zone loops. Normal home heating in the area is radiant so that part was part of a standard build. The biggest input differential was a horizontal loop field. The system wasn't fancy at the time and the contractor had been doing them for about a decade. It is a nice functioning setup with each room is on it's own stat that controls a simple zone valve. That system does what is needed and just plain keeps working.
We had one system that would have fallen under that description when it was installed in 2003. Honestly, it was because the contractor wasn't familiar with residential systems. Their experience was in big commercial stuff doing fantastic vertical loop fields. They were not adept at controls. It took them extra time to get it right. The initial setup used external relays to step the stages and it wasn't a smooth transition. In simple language, the heat pump would shut down each time it ramped to another stage. Thankfully, they had sized the system correctly and it came down to simplifying the process of managing stages and zone control.
The control tech has evolved a lot since 03 and there is stuff out there that is dang near plug and play even for complex systems.
Here's the deal with that fact. Find a contractor that is adept with these systems. Geo systems are generally sized right at the fringe of capacity because of the high up front input costs. If they get it wrong, you can fight the system for it's lifetime.
There are plenty of "traditional" HVAC setups that are way oversized for their need. Contractors have played around with fluff capacity for years. Some have done it for the quick profit and some based on customer request. There are Geo installers that might play that game, but they don't hang around long. Not many customers have a love affair with throwing away money.
On the topic of bleeding edge tech. We also have a heat only system that was done in a new build in 97. It was done with the KISS principle. The system is a simple radiant heat setup with "hot" water storage for the zone loops. Normal home heating in the area is radiant so that part was part of a standard build. The biggest input differential was a horizontal loop field. The system wasn't fancy at the time and the contractor had been doing them for about a decade. It is a nice functioning setup with each room is on it's own stat that controls a simple zone valve. That system does what is needed and just plain keeps working.
fitter30
Well-known member
When ever talking about equipment over 20 seer doesn't matter if it's geo or vrf it will take a higher end company to install and service the equipment. The company has to pay for the education, tools ( computer and all the programs/ updates) to keep up
with the ever changing technology and the commitment to sell that type.
with the ever changing technology and the commitment to sell that type.
danski0224
Well-known member
A lot of it is "plug and play" today.
The higher end residential stuff pretty much requires the use of the manufacturer thermostat and communications network, for anything more than 2 stages.
The manufacturers have done this because proper setup of the equipment otherwise... wasn't happening.
The manufacturers are also broadening the equipment self diagnostic capability, because HVAC employers want drone installers at low pay, not technicians. Unfortunately, one still must read the installation/setup manual to get to the diagnostics.
The high end stuff does not work properly if it is not sized/installed properly.
Plenty of threads here and elsewhere where posters lament HVAC stuff that is not installed properly.
I'd hate to blow $50k+ (that's a REALLY EASY number to hit) on a fancy high dollar HVAC system, only to not have it work later.
Unfortunately, equal blame is to be put on homeowners shopping for price, not getting a design with scope of work and specifications, and/or not vetting their contractors.
toyotadriver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2010
- Messages
- 1,586
The answer to "Is geothermal cost effective?" is always.....it depends. The larger the building the more likely it'll make sense. If you are retrofitting a system to a building that is poorly insulated, it may make sense. If you are building in a severe climate (either very hot or very cold) it might make sense. Electrical rates come into play. For example, if you need AC but have high electrical rates, geothermal may pay off even for a smaller house. If you need a lot of heat, need very little AC, have low natural gas rates and have high electric rates, geothermal might be a bad idea.
Everyone interested in geothermal will have to do an analysis for themselves to see if it makes financial sense. In my case, when I built my house I looked at all the factors and decided there was no way I could make it viable. My average cooling portion of my electric bill is about $20-30 per month (5 months). My average heating portion bill per month is about $20-50 (5 months-combined propane and electric). If I saved 50%, it would take me forever to pay off the extra cost. That said, my house is way over insulated for the area so that's why my bills are especially low. My house is around 2750 sq ft of conditioned space. For me, in my area, if I was building over 4000 sq ft, I'd be looking at geothermal much more seriously. If I was building over 5000 sq ft, I would almost certainly be installing geothermal....assuming there is enough space for the wells or horizontal loops.
I always recommend, if you are building, upgrade the insulation. It's never going to get cheaper to heat and cool your building. Insulation pays off for the life of the home. Always upgrade the insulation to a higher standard than the local building practices/codes. Rigid foam insulation on the outside of the home (of the proper thickness for your climate), is a relatively inexpensive but massive insulation upgrade.
Only you can do the math to determine if geothermal is right for you. There are so many factors at play that none of us can say for certainty without knowing all the details of your project. If ANY HVAC person tells you "you need to go with geothermal" without knowing any details of your particular project, run fast and far from that person.
Everyone interested in geothermal will have to do an analysis for themselves to see if it makes financial sense. In my case, when I built my house I looked at all the factors and decided there was no way I could make it viable. My average cooling portion of my electric bill is about $20-30 per month (5 months). My average heating portion bill per month is about $20-50 (5 months-combined propane and electric). If I saved 50%, it would take me forever to pay off the extra cost. That said, my house is way over insulated for the area so that's why my bills are especially low. My house is around 2750 sq ft of conditioned space. For me, in my area, if I was building over 4000 sq ft, I'd be looking at geothermal much more seriously. If I was building over 5000 sq ft, I would almost certainly be installing geothermal....assuming there is enough space for the wells or horizontal loops.
I always recommend, if you are building, upgrade the insulation. It's never going to get cheaper to heat and cool your building. Insulation pays off for the life of the home. Always upgrade the insulation to a higher standard than the local building practices/codes. Rigid foam insulation on the outside of the home (of the proper thickness for your climate), is a relatively inexpensive but massive insulation upgrade.
Only you can do the math to determine if geothermal is right for you. There are so many factors at play that none of us can say for certainty without knowing all the details of your project. If ANY HVAC person tells you "you need to go with geothermal" without knowing any details of your particular project, run fast and far from that person.
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86turbodsl
Well-known member
I'd like to add here, make sure your loop contractor has a VERY good handle on the soil conditions AT YOUR LOCATION. I hired a loop contractor that was a little too far away, he said he was familiar with the area, but i still feel that our loop, oversized by 1 ton, is inadequate for my system. Works great in cooling mode, not as well in heating mode. I'd have bumped it up a ton if it was me doing it probably.