any old timers know proper technique for bubble wheel balancers?

[Shadowdog500]

When I was a teen, a friends father had a Coats manual tire changer (like HF one but beefier and better) and a high quality bubble balancer. We used to mount and balance our own tires and the wheels were balanced just fine.

I am trying to remember the proper technique to balance wheels on a bubble balancer. I remember it was not as simple as putting the right weight at the high spot. I remember that multiple weights were put at different positions around the rim.

If anyone here has first hand experience with a bubble balancer and is, or was, proficient with the proper technique could you please refresh my memory. I cant find it on the web anywhere. (I remember enough to know E-how has it wrong)

And yes, I do know and have used dynamic balancers.

Thanks,

Chris

 

[electrodude]

I'm interested in this also, I'm planning on getting the HF changer and balancer... I'm a seriously cheap *******!

 

[Red Green]

The guy at the local independant tire shop here basicly puts the weight were the bubble shows it needs to be. Sometimes it needs a weight on the back side of the rim or several small weights placed in various spots.

 

[I can fix anything]

The guy at the local independant tire shop here basicly puts the weight were the bubble shows it needs to be. Sometimes it needs a weight on the back side of the rim or several small weights placed in various spots.

Wheel weights in many places is wrong. I know a tire guru and he says all weight should be together to be correct. He works for Firestone and knows what he is talking about. I am no expert for sure but I figure a static balance is pretty much useless. A dynamic balance is required for automobiles.

 

[Packard V8]

I was a Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company Shop Manager back in the day. Yes, it is sometimes as simple as putting one weight on the light side of the rim. However, it depends on how much weight is required. For instance, if it takes less than one ounce, just put the weight on the outside of the rim. One ounce to two ounces, put one half the weight the inside and outside of the rim. If it takes more than two ounces, space two weights six inches or so apart on each side of the rim.

Having said that, bubble balancers were for narrow, old school rims. Today's rims wider than 6" usually require a dynamic balancer to get it smooth.

jack vines

 

[bassman]

My father had a shop and we had a coats 10/10 and a bubble balancer. I would have the weel on the balancer and directly in the opposite direction the bubble was going would be where the weight would go. But I'd take two weights of half the oz. and move them out from that centerline, so as not to have one heavy weight in one position, if that makes any sense to you, kind of hard to explain. As you'd move them farther apart or closer together, would changs where the bubble would move to.

 

[Red Green]

Wheel weights in many places is wrong. I know a tire guru and he says all weight should be together to be correct. He works for Firestone and knows what he is talking about. I am no expert for sure but I figure a static balance is pretty much useless. A dynamic balance is required for automobiles.

I that the dynamic balancer is the latest and greatest. When the local guy gets done with his bubble balancer I can't feel a wheel out of balance when I am driving and that is good enough for me.

 

[I can fix anything]

Having said that, bubble balancers were for narrow, old school rims. Today's rims wider than 6" usually require a dynamic balancer to get it smooth.

jack vines

I'm with you

 

[Vettman]

My father had a shop and we had a coats 10/10 and a bubble balancer. I would have the weel on the balancer and directly in the opposite direction the bubble was going would be where the weight would go. But I'd take two weights of half the oz. and move them out from that centerline, so as not to have one heavy weight in one position, if that makes any sense to you, kind of hard to explain. As you'd move them farther apart or closer together, would changs where the bubble would move to.

That's the way I used to balance them. Two weights from the centerline ( directly opposite the heavy side)

 

[Thumper]

Heres the instructions from BADA...most likely the people that made most bubble balancers


The patented system involves four steps. First, the wheel is placed horizontally on a balancer equipped with a spirit level and allowed to tilt freely from side to side. The bubble in the spirit level indicates the location of the 'light spot' on the wheel-- the point of greatest imbalance and the one which tips up the highest when the wheel tilts. Second, four equal weights are placed on the rim of the wheel, two on each side of the light spot and immediately adjacent to it. The weights are of a size such that when all four are placed at the light spot, they are sufficient to correct the tilt of the wheel and just slightly to 'overbalance' it. Third, the pairs of weights are moved away from the light spot equal distances along the rim, until the induced overbalance is precisely corrected and the angle of tilt, as shown by the spirit level, is zero. Fourth, one of the weights in each pair is fastened into position; the other is removed, and fastened into the corresponding position on the other (nether) side of the wheel.

 

[tatra]

the outline in thumpers post is the way i was taught..........and after i would check on a dynamic balancer and it was still out...........bubble balancers are a quaint acccesory for a period correct shop...........for maximum benefit, dynamic is best..............

 

[Shadowdog500]

Heres the instructions from BADA...most likely the people that made most bubble balancers


The patented system involves four steps. First, the wheel is placed horizontally on a balancer equipped with a spirit level and allowed to tilt freely from side to side. The bubble in the spirit level indicates the location of the 'light spot' on the wheel-- the point of greatest imbalance and the one which tips up the highest when the wheel tilts. Second, four equal weights are placed on the rim of the wheel, two on each side of the light spot and immediately adjacent to it. The weights are of a size such that when all four are placed at the light spot, they are sufficient to correct the tilt of the wheel and just slightly to 'overbalance' it. Third, the pairs of weights are moved away from the light spot equal distances along the rim, until the induced overbalance is precisely corrected and the angle of tilt, as shown by the spirit level, is zero. Fourth, one of the weights in each pair is fastened into position; the other is removed, and fastened into the corresponding position on the other (nether) side of the wheel.

That kind of sounds like what I remember. Do you have a link to the source, I would like to read more.

Thanks,

Chris

 

[Shadowdog500]

I'm not debating that dynamic is best, but there are quality bubble balancers around (not HF) and I cant see why they would not be sufficient for some of the newer cars with smaller tires. Not everyone has the money or room for a dynamic balancer, but If someone could pick up a BADA at a flea market for cheap why not use it? Cars drove for the better part of the last century with bubble balanced wheels and I don't remember a problem, even at high speeds with my cars up to the early to mid 80's.

Chris

 

[Thumper]

That kind of sounds like what I remember. Do you have a link to the source, I would like to read more.

Thanks,

Chris

All I did was google "BADA bubble balancer" an it was in a patent dispute lawsuit.

I used one for years with great success when I was with Goodyear and Firestone. Just make sure the arrow is lined up with the valve stem bfore you start.

 

[bassman]

Thats right, if there was a lot of weight, I would split it and put some om the other side. Brings back good memories, dosen't it?

 

[srmofo]

Even the newer dynamic balancers still allow you to split the weight

 

[dlewis]

I was a Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company Shop Manager back in the day. Yes, it is sometimes as simple as putting one weight on the light side of the rim. However, it depends on how much weight is required. For instance, if it takes less than one ounce, just put the weight on the outside of the rim. One ounce to two ounces, put one half the weight the inside and outside of the rim. If it takes more than two ounces, space two weights six inches or so apart on each side of the rim.

Having said that, bubble balancers were for narrow, old school rims. Today's rims wider than 6" usually require a dynamic balancer to get it smooth.

jack vines

That's the way we used to do it like how packard explained,years ago I went to bear and beeline schools for alingment and frame straightening learned how to spin balance tires on the vehicle can do anything from passanger to big trucks,nothing comes close to being smoother just too time consuming,I know of a few old timers that still do it.

 

[PCO6]

Brings back good memories, dosen't it?

It sure does! My Dad taught me to balance wheels pretty much the way that Thumper described it. I had to be one of the luckiest guys at my high school back in the late 60's and early 70's. My Dad had a 2 bay Sunoco station next to Sports Cars Unlimited which was one of the Toronto area's biggest BMC / BL sports car dealers. They worked on a lot of great every day sports cars and some exotics too and you'd think they at least have a wheel balancer ... nope! I worked mostly part time and summers and I got to test drive a LOT of British sports cars after I balanced their wheels ... and tell my HS buddies about it the next day.

 

[bent valves]

I bubble balance my truck tires and car tires using one weight on the light spot. I also use a few onces of ceramic balancing beads to dynamically keep them in balance.

http://www.innovativebalancing.com/

All that is needed is to get the bubble balance close and let the beads do fine tuning. I stopped using the tire change guys years ago when they damage my alloy rims so I mount and balance them now.

 

[Dewaynep]

Up until yesterday I used a BADA bubble balancer to balance my customers tires in my shop. Never had a comback or a complaint. If the weight needed to balance the assembly was over 1.5 ounces I would put half of the weight on the front of the wheel and the other half on the back side directly oppposite. A bubble balancer works fine for the generally low speed most tires are subjected to. They are just too slow to be used in a production type shop environment. Also, remember that you don't want to use the balancer where there is any chance of wind or a fan blowing on the tire while it is on the balancer. The slightest breeze will affect the balance.

 

[Aberdale]

Heres the instructions from BADA...most likely the people that made most bubble balancers


The patented system involves four steps. First, the wheel is placed horizontally on a balancer equipped with a spirit level and allowed to tilt freely from side to side. The bubble in the spirit level indicates the location of the 'light spot' on the wheel-- the point of greatest imbalance and the one which tips up the highest when the wheel tilts. Second, four equal weights are placed on the rim of the wheel, two on each side of the light spot and immediately adjacent to it. The weights are of a size such that when all four are placed at the light spot, they are sufficient to correct the tilt of the wheel and just slightly to 'overbalance' it. Third, the pairs of weights are moved away from the light spot equal distances along the rim, until the induced overbalance is precisely corrected and the angle of tilt, as shown by the spirit level, is zero. Fourth, one of the weights in each pair is fastened into position; the other is removed, and fastened into the corresponding position on the other (nether) side of the wheel.

I worked in a Goodyear tire store for 4 years after I graduated from high school. The technique posted by thumper is how we were taught. I have a bubble balancer in my garage, and use it every time I rotate tires. I've not had any issues with using a bubble balancer on my newer cars with alloys.

 

[jkherd]

I worked in a tire shop when I was in high school for two years and used the old style balancer. Using it is pretty straight forward, adding the weights is a matter of trial and error. When adding the weight you need to split the difference between the front and back if possible to evenly distribute weight. Always worked pretty well.

 

[Shadowdog500]

Up until yesterday I used a BADA bubble balancer to balance my customers tires in my shop. Never had a comback or a complaint. If the weight needed to balance the assembly was over 1.5 ounces I would put half of the weight on the front of the wheel and the other half on the back side directly oppposite. A bubble balancer works fine for the generally low speed most tires are subjected to. They are just too slow to be used in a production type shop environment. Also, remember that you don't want to use the balancer where there is any chance of wind or a fan blowing on the tire while it is on the balancer. The slightest breeze will affect the balance.

Why did you stop using it yesterday?

Chris

 

[Dewaynep]

Why did you stop using it yesterday?

Chris

I picked up a Snapon WB230 Hand Spin balancer at an auction. Customers like to see "newer" technology in your shop. Even though a bubble balancer works perfectly fine customers think it is old technology and therefore flawed. One other thing is that the BADA I have doesn't have a small enough Spindle (?) to be able to fit small hub holes. It wouldn't fit my 1998 Buick Skylark or many of the Mercedes/BMW wheels that I work on. Because of that, I had to have a second bubble balancer similar to the one sold at HF. It isn't as accurate and is much harder to balance a tire properly on it. So, I bought the Spin Balancer to cover all of the tires I do and make my customers a little more secure in knowing that I spin balance their wheels on a "computerized" balancer.

 

[electrodude]

I'd just like to add:

Took my daughters car down yesterday to get her studded tires put on. '92 Subaru, to dismount street tires, mount studs, and balance: $88.

The best part? They fully expect me to go back in the spring and pay them again! I'll be getting the manual tire changer AND the bubble balancer and they can kiss my crippled ***!

 

[bobadame]

First you level the balancer, then set the tire on it and level it with weights split front and back.

 

[Shadowdog500]

I'd just like to add:

Took my daughters car down yesterday to get her studded tires put on. '92 Subaru, to dismount street tires, mount studs, and balance: $88.

The best part? They fully expect me to go back in the spring and pay them again! I'll be getting the manual tire changer AND the bubble balancer and they can kiss my crippled ***!

I have the manual tire machine and it kicks ****. It paid for itself on the first day when I replaced all of the valve stems on my wife's car. I also used it to replace the pressure transmitting valve stem on my jeep. I reinforced the bead breaker to help with stubborn beads, and found that taping the bottom plastic from milk jugs to the bar keeps it from scratching aluminum rims. I also found the real tire lube from NAPA is only $9 a gallon and it does make a big difference. The applicator brush and special bottle to hold it was only another $10 at NAPA.

You could also get an extra set of rims at the junkyard for the summer tires and just change the entire wheel. That is how my dad used to do it before all season tires came out.

Chris

 

[malibu101]

You could also get an extra set of rims at the junkyard for the summer tires and just change the entire wheel. That is how my dad used to do it before all season tires came out.

Chris

X2. I have used snow tires with studded drive tires over the winter on all of my daily drivers over the years. Even front wheel drive cars.
I have always got a set of cheap wheels from a junkyard for the snow tires. All that mounting and dismounting seems like a lot of time, wear, and money. Now I understand, depending on the car, the rims may be hard to find or pricey. If they're not, I'd get 4 and be done with it. And since you store the tires over the summer anyway the rims don't even take up any extra room.

 

[Harleyguy]

You find the total weight needed by placing it 180 degrees from the heavy side. Then divide that in half and move the weights 120 degrees in opposite directions from the heavy side. If you were to draw it out it would look like a triangle. This makes the weight distribution closer to round than just two out of balance weights at opposite ends. After all the tire is round.

 

[RoadTraveler]

This is an older thread but it helped me both remember (had used a bubble balancer before) and learn new options on how to use a new to me Coats bubble balancer.

I mostly play with trucks (4x4 light-trucks), and in most cases have been getting my LT tires static spin balanced for years. Static balance usually calls for much less weight on larger LT tires and the drivability has been good.

It took me a couple days and several attempts to learn how to bubble balance my tires/wheels to my satisfaction, but I'm pretty happy with my results, all the way up to 75 MPH on an all-wheel-drive 4x4. Not as good as a computer spin balance at a store, but good enough in a pinch, for smaller/lighter tires, and maybe trailer tires.

Thanks for sharing the older ways.

 

[Lump]

Like Packard V8, I was a service manager at a Goodyear store. That in the early 1970's. We had a bubble balancer, and a dynamic "spin balancer" which balanced the tire/wheel on the car. I got pretty good at it after a couple of years. Like Jack said, when we found a wheel which needed more than 1 oz, we flipped it over and put two weights on the back side, splitting the centerline of the light spot, and then flipped it again and put two more on the other side. It was really important to get those last two weights located exactly right. But it worked pretty well.

The spin balancer was better, because it balanced the entire rotating assembly. Or at least, that's what we believed back then. But most guys would spin the wheels way too fast. The trick was to spin them slower; to emulate real traffic speeds.

 

[Packard V8]

Like Packard V8, I was a service manager at a Goodyear store. That in the early 1970's. We had a bubble balancer, and a dynamic "spin balancer" which balanced the tire/wheel on the car. I got pretty good at it after a couple of years.

Hi, Lump, If yours was like ours, it was real; it was fun; but it wasn't real fun. The first snow was like it was the first time winter had ever come. They all wanted snow tires done after it was already on the ground.

In the rush, QC was a challenge. After the first time a customer drove out and the wheels fell off, I bought a hammer belt hook and a beam torque wrench for every guy mounting tires. No car came down off the lift until he brought me the signed work order he had personally verified the wheel lug torque.

IIRC, there were three prices for balancing:
1. Bubble balancing = $1.00
2. Spin balancing = $1.50
3. Dynamic balancing on the vehicle = $2.50
The reason for the extra cost was it took much longer and had to be done by a mechanic. Tire busters could handle the bubble and the spin machine, but on the vehicle required art and experience.

First thing we did was to use the big roundness indicator and checked for radial and co-planar variations. An out-of-round tire or bent wheel can be in balance but will vibrate at speed. If an out-of-round condition was found, half the time it was our tire and half the time it was their wheel. On vehicle balancing was also compensating for out-of-balance drums/rotors.

Remember rear wheels were balanced at twice the speedometer speed? To balance at 70 MPH, the off side wheel was chocked and the spider gears doubled the speed of the wheel/tire to be balanced. If a rear wheel was really out, an experienced mechanic would check the driveshaft and the axle end play. Bent driveshafts and junk bearings can't be balanced out at the wheel.

Ah, the memories; some good, some bad, but a great learning experience.

jack vines

 

[Lump]

Hi, Lump, If yours was like ours, it was real; it was fun; but it wasn't real fun. The first snow was like it was the first time winter had ever come. They all wanted snow tires done after it was already on the ground.

In the rush, QC was a challenge. After the first time a customer drove out and the wheels fell off, I bought a hammer belt hook and a beam torque wrench for every guy mounting tires. No car came down off the lift until he brought me the signed work order he had personally verified the wheel lug torque.

IIRC, there were three prices for balancing:
1. Bubble balancing = $1.00
2. Spin balancing = $1.50
3. Dynamic balancing on the vehicle = $2.50
The reason for the extra cost was it took much longer and had to be done by a mechanic. Tire busters could handle the bubble and the spin machine, but on the vehicle required art and experience.

First thing we did was to use the big roundness indicator and checked for radial and co-planar variations. An out-of-round tire or bent wheel can be in balance but will vibrate at speed. If an out-of-round condition was found, half the time it was our tire and half the time it was their wheel. On vehicle balancing was also compensating for out-of-balance drums/rotors.

Remember rear wheels were balanced at twice the speedometer speed? To balance at 70 MPH, the off side wheel was chocked and the spider gears doubled the speed of the wheel/tire to be balanced. If a rear wheel was really out, an experienced mechanic would check the driveshaft and the axle end play. Bent driveshafts and junk bearings can't be balanced out at the wheel.

Ah, the memories; some good, some bad, but a great learning experience.

jack vines

Jack,
You sure do bring back memories! The "FIRST SNOW DAY" was a critical ritual at our store. I only went through it twice, really; both times I was a part-time tire buster. Got a phone call from the store manager at about 4:30 am (scared my parents to death!), ran down to the store and we opened early. Customers were lined up at our door before 6 am. Mounted tires all day, with no breaks. Store mgr bought sack o' burgers, and stuffed one in my mouth while I worked, and said, "You're doing great! Don't slow down, we'll eat well later!" We sold virtually every snow tire in the store. Everyone was filthy and soaked at end of day. Incredible memory. Thanks for that, Jack.

 

[Lump]

QUOTE: First thing we did was to use the big roundness indicator and checked for radial and co-planar variations. An out-of-round tire or bent wheel can be in balance but will vibrate at speed. If an out-of-round condition was found, half the time it was our tire and half the time it was their wheel. On vehicle balancing was also compensating for out-of-balance drums/rotors.
Remember rear wheels were balanced at twice the speedometer speed? To balance at 70 MPH, the off side wheel was chocked and the spider gears doubled the speed of the wheel/tire to be balanced. If a rear wheel was really out, an experienced mechanic would check the driveshaft and the axle end play. Bent driveshafts and junk bearings can't be balanced out at the wheel.

Jack, Thanks for more good memories...
After I became Service Manager, I personally handled all of the balance problems and tire-problem-complaints. I used that roundness indicator a million times, it seems. I prided myself in solving difficult problems, and since I had learned from a real seasoned pro, I was fairly good at it. I recall one repeat-comeback balance problem that another store sent me, when they couldn't figure it out. They said they had tried everything, but I discovered that the tire was full of water! So they would balance it correctly on the car, but as soon as they drove it down the street, it was as bad as before. But the guy who taught me to solve tire-vibration problems had told me a story about that happening to him once. So I popped the tire off the rim, and got soaked in the process. The customer thought I was really smart, and he switched his business to our store. Then we billed the other store for my labor. Hahahaha.

 

[kxxr]

Ah, the memories; some good, some bad, but a great learning experience.

jack vines

Ah yes, the memories.
I earned my tire busting chops in a farm store and just when you started to think the next car or truck tire might put you over the edge, here'd come ol' Joe Farmer with his 7 foot chloride filled tractor tire needing a little repair work, and needing it YESTERDAY! That'd give you a fresh perspective and make you wish for another dozen car tires to take care of instead. Of course, that would never happen unless the temperature in the shop was over a hundred and it was 30 minutes to quitting time.
It might have been somewhere around that time that I started thinking my name would not always be 'Manual Labor and that if you're going to be known for being good at something, try to make it something that's not such damned hard work. I'm happy to be looking back on those days, but I wouldn't trade 'em.

 

[RoadTraveler]

A few months ago I spent some time playing with a bubble balancer, later published a few blog posts about it, starting with this one:

http://roadtraveler.net/dont-tolerate-half-a-bubble-off

 

[theoldwizard1]

Heres the instructions from BADA...most likely the people that made most bubble balancers


The patented system involves four steps. First, the wheel is placed horizontally on a balancer equipped with a spirit level and allowed to tilt freely from side to side. The bubble in the spirit level indicates the location of the 'light spot' on the wheel-- the point of greatest imbalance and the one which tips up the highest when the wheel tilts. Second, four equal weights are placed on the rim of the wheel, two on each side of the light spot and immediately adjacent to it. The weights are of a size such that when all four are placed at the light spot, they are sufficient to correct the tilt of the wheel and just slightly to 'overbalance' it. Third, the pairs of weights are moved away from the light spot equal distances along the rim, until the induced overbalance is precisely corrected and the angle of tilt, as shown by the spirit level, is zero. Fourth, one of the weights in each pair is fastened into position; the other is removed, and fastened into the corresponding position on the other (nether) side of the wheel.

Exactly as I was taught at Sears Tire and Auto Center 40 years ago.

 

[The Dutchman]

Even if you perfectly balance the tire &wheel assembly (TWA) on a bubble balancer, you could have a heavy spot at 12 o'clock on the outer rim flange (outer half of the TWA) & one at 6 o'clock on the inner flange. For the sake of explanation, imagine the tire is extremely low profile like a formula one tire. Look at it from behind the car. With the locations of the aforementioned heavy spots, can you see that at high speed, when the outer heavy spot got to 12 o'clock & the inner at 6, there would be a tendency to lift the right side of the TWA & lower the left side. The TWA, of course, wouldn't lift off the ground, but the tendency in question could easily produce high speed wobble. The heavy spots, of course wouldn't have to be exactly at 12 & 6 o'clock to produce this condition.

I agree with the posters who say that under a certain speed, and/or with a narrower TWA, bubble balancing is sufficient.

 

[RoadTraveler]

snip..
I agree with the posters who say that under a certain speed, and/or with a narrower TWA, bubble balancing is sufficient.

Agreed. I used to run tall (33") but relatively narrow 255mm (10") light-truck tires, but now use 285s, which makes the static bubble balancing more difficult.

 

[71flh]

I think the bubble should be in the center of the circle...