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Any reason for 12/2 over 14/2?

dondb

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I have open walls right now and have a 15 amp circuit to handle 8 65w canned lights and want to run my two outside lights off that circuit (just going to jump to the switch in the double box). It's a detached garage and was thinking of just putting in a couple of LED motion flood light, Or should i put it on it's own breaker?? And like my title ask...any reason for 12/2 vs 14/2.....that's what i meant in the title??

Just dangerous enough with my electrical skills to get in trouble....inspector still has to come over to sign off.
 
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ddawg16

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Re: Any reason for 10/2 over 14/2?

You plan to use incandescent bulbs? Why? I have 16 cans in my garage...all with CFL's....not issues....

As for wire....14/2 is fine if your feeding it with a 15A breaker.
 

2ManyProjects

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Re: Any reason for 10/2 over 14/2?

I have open walls right now and have a 15 amp circuit to handle 8 65w canned lights and want to run my two outside lights off that circuit (just going to jump to the switch in the double box).

Given your later comments about your limited expertise with electrical, it would probably be best if you explained EXACTLY what (you think) you mean by "just going to jump to the switch in the double box". There are multiple ways that statement could be interpreted -- some are just fine; some are OK, but not ideal; and some aren't OK at all.

It's a detached garage and was thinking of just putting in a couple of LED motion flood light, Or should i put it on it's own breaker??

Difficult to offer any guidance here, with so little context and/or information to go on. For example: What is the size and general layout of this garage? Is it in the middle of nowhere, or in an urban/suburban area where shining bright lights into neighbors' windows (or even onto their lawns, for that matter) might be an issue? What (and where) is the power source in that garage? What is the primary usage of the space? Is it new construction, a substantial remodel, or just a facelift/upgrade to an existing structure? (I could keep going, but you get the idea.)

And like my title ask...any reason for 12/2 vs 14/2.....that's what i meant in the title??

The short answer is, it depends at least somewhat on the length of wiring runs. For the long answer, see http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3348870&postcount=4; note the part starting with, "Most folks will tell you ...".

Just dangerous enough with my electrical skills to get in trouble....

Which is why you need to explain everything in as much detail as possible, when seeking advice. Something YOU presume to be trivial or irrelevant just might a crucial data point which will significantly changes the answers you get.

inspector still has to come over to sign off.

That's something you want to have happen ONCE. If he sees a bunch of ham-handed "amateur hour" mistakes on his first visit, odds he's going to be looking under rocks on his second, third, etc., trip to the same job site.


You plan to use incandescent bulbs? Why? I have 16 cans in my garage...all with CFL's....not issues....

A valid question. But he may well have his reasons. For example, dimming, perhaps?

As for wire....14/2 is fine if your feeding it with a 15A breaker.

As noted above, it's not that simple.

 

Kevin C

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Re: Any reason for 10/2 over 14/2?

Assuming you have a breaker box in your detached garage? If so, length of runs is probably not an issue, I can't imaging a run more than 50 ft. At 100 ft @ 15 amps you would get about a 9 volt drop. No code that I'm aware of on voltage drops, just a recommendation not to exceed 3.6 %.

Given pretty low loading and a reasonable run length a 15 amp / 14 AWG wire for a lighting circuit should be plenty. As we move towards more efficient light sources it seems reasonable that your covered for future changes.

Coin toss on the wire gauge. Nice to pull 12 AWG so you have options if you ever need more power through that circuit, makes it easy to put in a 20 amp breaker. Then again, 14 AWG is really easy to work with.
 

zmaxmotorsports

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Re: Any reason for 10/2 over 14/2?

If its just the lighting I dont see a problem with the 14/2,I prefer to run garage outlets off a 20a circuit with 12/2 though.;)
 

sands35

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Re: Any reason for 10/2 over 14/2?

The basic math says 15*120 = 1800 Watts (for 14 awg wire)

BUT

If there is a reason to think that the lights will be on longer than 4 hours, you need to derate by 20%. So 1440 Watts. (it is reasonable to expect that workshop lights be on for more than 4 hours)

If you are doing a garage, I see no reason to mix light circuits with outlet circuits. Perhaps in a cheep house, but not a DIY garage. You just don't save that much money and it's a PITA if something trips an outlet and takes the lights down with it.

There is a rule of thumb that says no more than 10 lights per circuit (varies by AHJ - I have not found an NEC requirement though. The issue is with screw in bulbs - you can put in bigger bulbs than the the fixture is rated for). 10 120 Watt lights is 10 amps. Safely under the allowable limits (even better when you use CFLs). I suppose you can screw in 200 Watt bulbs, but then you'd trip the breaker.

For lights with a ballast, use the ballast rating.

IMHO, use 14/2, separate circuit for lights, no more than 10 lights per and keep it under 1440 Watt draw per circuit. (and call your inspector for code guidance)
 
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gcronau

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Re: Any reason for 10/2 over 14/2?

Just my 2 cents here:

I see no use anymore for 14 gauge wire. If it's my property, I don't use anything smaller than 12ga for anything. Unless I'm connecting a phone. :)

When you consider voltage drop and safety issues, I think 12ga is just the better solution. There's no difference in price between a 20a and a 15a breaker. The only advantage 14ga has is, it's cheaper. But it's not really *that* much cheaper.

A quick check of TheDepot shows that a 1000' of Southwire NM-B in 14/2 is $176 and in 12/2 is $269. 50% more in price, yes. But 1000' of 14/2 is what is typically used in the wiring of an entire small house. A $90 difference on the price of a whole house just doesn't seem like the right place to be pinching pennies. IMO

I guess one other area 14ga is nicer is that it's easier to twist together before you put on a wire nut, or to bend a loop into before putting it under a screw on an outlet or switch. But I try to use rear entry(NOT BACK STAB!) outlets and switches as much as I can, so that's not as much of an issue as it used to be.
 
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dondb

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Re: Any reason for 10/2 over 14/2?

Thanks everyone! I just went with 12/2 and probably went over kill on all the breakers. It's a new garage 28X32 with a 100 amp box, fed from my main 200 amp in the house. I had a electrician ($1,600.00) do the job and already signed off by the inspector. The quotes i got for lighting and receptacles seemed pretty high for mostly grunt work, so i'm setting out to do it on my own....and am almost done. I live in the seacoast of New Hampshire and all contractors are pricing in premiums here. I just got quotes for insulation and sheet rocking. First quote $6,200 insulation and $5,800 sheet rocking....thought that was a bit high until i got my second quote, 12k insulation, 10k sheet rocking.....ok, HD here i come!

First floor:


second floor:

New Lift:
 

gcronau

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Re: Any reason for 10/2 over 14/2?

Ok, first thought: I'm deeply jealous of your car lift.

Second thought: The clearance between the downstairs ceiling and the top of the lift seems a bit small. Wouldn't want to jacking up the upstairs would you? Or, more likely, jacking down the roof of the car.
 

2ManyProjects

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Re: Any reason for 10/2 over 14/2?

Thanks everyone! I just went with 12/2 and probably went over kill on all the breakers. It's a new garage 28X32 with a 100 amp box, fed from my main 200 amp in the house.

OK, now that I have a better handle on the context, a few unsolicited comments on the job in general...

First, you earlier said something about "8 65w canned lights". Leaving aside the LED/CFL/Incandescent debate for the moment, I'll note that while that MIGHT be adequate for the loft area alone, it won't be nearly enough for the main garage/shop area. You need to figure on MUCH more lighting than this. This is further exacerbated by the fact that "recessed can" lighting (pretty much regardless of what type bulbs you fill them with) tends to be rather "spotty" and directional, meaning each one covers less floor area.

I'm guessing from the pics that your lower-level ceiling will finish out at about 12 feet. That will help somewhat (as compared to the more typical 8-10 feet), as the light will have more chance to spread out before it gets down to "working height", But it's still not a panacea; and it also means you need brighter light sources (the intensity of light diminishes with the square of distance, in a free field).

If you're willing to forego dimming capability, then the lower level solution becomes relatively easy: Some form of fluorescent strip lighting, placed carefully to remain useful when you actually have vehicles in that space (generally meaning NOT directly overhead), and wired into several independently switched "banks", to provide at least some control over both brightness and coverage pattern. Personally, I like four-foot twin-tube fixtures, such as this one (which I've pointed to several times here):

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia-Lighting-2-Light-Utility-Light-3348-2L32W-WRAP/100654395
92eeea00-35d4-4de6-9cd6-11e57dd051fc_300.jpg


They're cheap; they look half-decent; they can be strung together in more-or-less continuous "strips" when appropriate; the polycarbonate lens both helps to evenly distribute the light and provides some impact protection; and the 4-foot size makes placing them where you really need them relatively easy. There's also a matching two-foot version:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia...hite-Fluorescent-Light-Fixture-3324/202192968

if you need to fit into really tight spots, or fill out a specific-legth run.

And finally, since you're NOT trying to get something like 20-50% of your total lighting requirements out of each fixture, you can use enough of them to easily form into multiple switched banks, yet still maintain relatively even distribution, even when only using 1/3 or 1/2 the lights. Without running any calcs, or even beginning to address the specific interior layout (i.e., wherever the workbench, stationary machines, storage cabinets, etc., will be located), I'll offer a "starting guess" that you'll probably want 20-30 of these fixtures to cover your "general" lighting needs on the lower level, plus additional "task lighting" in specific spots as required.


I had a electrician ($1,600.00) do the job and already signed off by the inspector.

I presume you are referring here to the sub-panel and the feeder from the home's main service panel? That doesn't sound too bad, presuming you didn't lift a finger for that part of the job.

The quotes i got for lighting and receptacles seemed pretty high for mostly grunt work, so i'm setting out to do it on my own....and am almost done.

Will you need another inspection after you have those rough-ins done?

I live in the seacoast of New Hampshire and all contractors are pricing in premiums here. I just got quotes for insulation and sheet rocking. First quote $6,200 insulation and $5,800 sheet rocking....thought that was a bit high until i got my second quote, 12k insulation, 10k sheet rocking.....ok, HD here i come!

The insulation depends somewhat on the type of system you're going with. For that loft area, at least, I would suggest you seriously consider spray-in closed-cell foam. You apparently have little or no effective attic space above at least most of that area, and not much space to cram insulation into. Combine that with your coastal New Hampshire location, and you'll want the most efficient insulation you can get. And if you were to have them do the whole job (including the lower-level sidewalls) while they're there, that $6,200 figure MIGHT not be completely outrageous.

The drywall bids, OTOH, do sound unreasonably high to me. But then, I also recently got "sticker shock" from a quote of about $2,500 just to rip out and replace the (approx. 12x15) ceiling in one room, including taping/mudding/sanding to "ready for paint" status.

Finally, not really related to any of this... That looks like a VERY nice floor you have there. I sure hope you put lots of insulation under it (and hopefully some PEX tubing into it, even if you aren't planning to use it right away), while you had the chance.

 
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dondb

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Re: Any reason for 10/2 over 14/2?

Ok, first thought: I'm deeply jealous of your car lift.

Second thought: The clearance between the downstairs ceiling and the top of the lift seems a bit small. Wouldn't want to jacking up the upstairs would you? Or, more likely, jacking down the roof of the car.

12 foot high ceiling...garage was basically built for that lift and my 02 LE and 69 camaro.
 
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dondb

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Thank you 2manyprojects.....you are a very detailed person! I ended up with 3 4 bulb t8's on their own switch and breaker, in the middle i put 6 t5 HO,on a separate switch and circuit. If you look in the third picture you can see the 8 canned lights i have in around the walls. I'll get an updated picture and post it. In front of the lift i have 12 feet and that is were the work bench will go....i plan on putting a single 8 foot T8 there on a separate switch. Hopefully that will be enough lighting?? The concrete is 4000psi fiberglass impregnated 5" minimum depth through out. I really was confused on what to treat the floor with (a lot of my decisions are based from this forum) i ended up just putting in a densefier, sealer product. My brother has been in the concrete business for 30 years and he tells me he has seen to many floors with problems?? As far as the insulation goes i am going to put in Roxul wool from HD, put in a vapor barrier and have someone do the sheet rocking and taping. To many mice around here to put in bedding (pink stuff)for them? For heat i just bought a 60k Modine HDS Hot Dawg Heater I'll install hopefully before winter
 
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NUTTSGT

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Thank You Sir!

You're welcome. I also used 12/2 exclusively in in my garage. I bought a spool of it and stayed away from 14/2.

I'd recommend buying it buy the spool and making a holder for the spool. It will make it easier to run wire.

You can see it sitting on the bottom shelf of the mitersaw cart.

 

sands35

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From what I've seen, the price per foot stays the same for lengths of 250' and more. No reason to buy more wire than needed.

I banged together an inverted T out of 2x4 and hung it from the rafters on a 3' rope to spool off the coils neatly for wire pulls.

Assuming your AHJ doesn't have an exception to NEC regs, why spend more money on something that isn't needed? I guess 12 awg might make you feel better at night, but if 14 awg is more than enough, why not? With the money i saved using 14 awg for light and fan circuits, i purchased another ceiling fan at higher performance than i planned for originally.

Really your call though.
 
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NUTTSGT

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From what I've seen, the price per foot stays the same for lengths of 250' and more. No reason to buy more wire than needed.

1. Pulling it off a spool is way easier than out of a shrink wrapped coil of wire.

2. It lays flatter when it comes off a spool.

3. The OP has put in a 100 amp service in the garage. If he like most guys out there, he'll use every space in that box for circuits. Doing that, he'll need plenty of wire.

4. If he uses all 12/2, he won't have multiple 250' coils (12/2 & 14/2) laying around.

5. The headache savings and less aggravation from #1 & #2 is worth the extra money spent to buy a spool. It also leaves you some wire for the future.



That spool in my picture is the second spool I have bought as a home owner and it's over half gone.

To each their own. :beer:
 
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dondb

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Now you tell me:lol_hitti I went to HD and bought a 250 foot roll every time i needed some:eek:

pretty much done now with about 2/3 of a roll left. now onto the Roxul wool insulation i bought today from my local lumber yard.....they matched HD with an additional 10% off. Winter is coming and i want to get my Modine 60k Hot Dawg heater in!!!
 
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NUTTSGT

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Now you tell me:lol_hitti I went to HD and bought a 250 foot roll every time i needed some:eek:

pretty much done now with about 2/3 of a roll left. now onto the Roxul wool insulation i bought today from my local lumber yard.....they matched HD with an additional 10% off. Winter is coming and i want to get my Modine 60k Hot Dawg heater in!!!

You only started this thread 3 days ago, you should have asked sooner ! :lol_hitti


How many circuits did you run and how much wire did you use ?
 

FTG-05

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You're welcome. I also used 12/2 exclusively in in my garage. I bought a spool of it and stayed away from 14/2.

I'd recommend buying it buy the spool and making a holder for the spool. It will make it easier to run wire.

[snip]

I feel the same way, I won't allow 14/2 in my (new to me) shop.

Where can you buy the 1000' feet spools of wire? Sure as heck, Lowe's and HD don't have it. And I'm going to need it in a spool, 'cause I'm going to be the one doing most of the wiring and do it by myself!

Thanks,
 
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sands35

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1. Pulling it off a spool is way easier than out of a shrink wrapped coil of wire.

2. It lays flatter when it comes off a spool.

3. The OP has put in a 100 amp service in the garage. If he like most guys out there, he'll use every space in that box for circuits. Doing that, he'll need plenty of wire.

4. If he uses all 12/2, he won't have multiple 250' coils (12/2 & 14/2) laying around.

5. The headache savings and less aggravation from #1 & #2 is worth the extra money spent to buy a spool. It also leaves you some wire for the future.



That spool in my picture is the second spool I have bought as a home owner and it's over half gone.

To each their own. :beer:
1 and 2 are easy to fix with what I've already described. Inverted T hung from a rafter.

I dunno, to each there own. The amp draw on typical ceiling fan is around an amp. If you want to spend money on 20 amp capacity when 15 will do, go ahead.

Looks like you've got half that 1000' foot roll left? A few coils fit into a smaller space than a spool.

Just sayin'

My local big boxes all have spools.
 

zmaxmotorsports

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1 and 2 are easy to fix with what I've already described. Inverted T hung from a rafter.

I dunno, to each there own. The amp draw on typical ceiling fan is around an amp. If you want to spend money on 20 amp capacity when 15 will do, go ahead.

Looks like you've got half that 1000' foot roll left? A few coils fit into a smaller space than a spool.

Just sayin'

My local big boxes all have spools.
:thumbup::beer:
 

NUTTSGT

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I feel the same way, I won't allow 14/2 in my (new to me) shop.

Where can you buy the 1000' feet spools of wire? Sure as heck, Lowe's and HD don't have it. And I'm going to need it in a spool, 'cause I'm going to be the one doing most of the wiring and do it by myself!

Thanks,

I've bought mine at Home Depot. :dunno: If yours doesn't have it, maybe try a local electrical supply house. The only problem though is that they may be higher priced.
 

zmaxmotorsports

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1. Pulling it off a spool is way easier than out of a shrink wrapped coil of wire.

2. It lays flatter when it comes off a spool.

3. The OP has put in a 100 amp service in the garage. If he like most guys out there, he'll use every space in that box for circuits. Doing that, he'll need plenty of wire.

4. If he uses all 12/2, he won't have multiple 250' coils (12/2 & 14/2) laying around.

5. The headache savings and less aggravation from #1 & #2 is worth the extra money spent to buy a spool. It also leaves you some wire for the future.



That spool in my picture is the second spool I have bought as a home owner and it's over half gone.

To each their own. :beer:
In the 30 plus years I was in the trades I dont remember ever having the desire to buy a 1000' roll of romex,be it 14 or 12g and that includes wiring more houses and garages than I could begin to count.
250' rolls are easy to work with,just peel the plasic shrink wrap off and roll it out across the floor 40-50' at a time whatever you need.(no kinks/twists in wire)
As far as 12g/20a circuits go thats fine for plugs/outlets,but a 20a circuit for some garage lights is totally over kill and just a hell of a lot harder to work with than it needs to be .
But hey if youre into torturing yourself who am I to judge?:dunno::lol:
 
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dondb

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You only started this thread 3 days ago, you should have asked sooner ! :lol_hitti


How many circuits did you run and how much wire did you use ?


so far....10 circuits (panel has 30 slots, 16 slots left)

3 15 amps
2 30 amps (220 double pole)
1 50 amp (220 double pole) right by the panel just incase i ever need to weld?
4 20 amps (1 220 double pole)


600 feet 12/2
200 feet 14/2
150 feet 10/2
4 feet 8/2

Only need to put 3 more 20 amp circuits, 2 for plugs and lights in the loft area and 1 dedicated to by the work bench for anything unexpected???
 
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NUTTSGT

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so far....10 circuits (panel has 30 slots, 16 slots left)

3 15 amps
2 30 amps (220 double pole)
1 50 amp (220 double pole) right by the panel just incase i ever need to weld?
4 20 amps (1 220 double pole)


600 feet 12/2
200 feet 14/2
150 feet 10/2
4 feet 8/2

Only need to put 3 more 20 amp circuits, 2 for plugs and lights in the loft area and 1 dedicated to by the work bench for anything unexpected???


Sounds like you've run a lot already. One thing that I have done in the house, my garage, for a buddy in his race shop and work garage is to put an outlet right off the breaker box. It gives you a place to plug in a light or power tool as you are working right there. Something to maybe kick around. :beer:
 

Joe G.

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One thing that I have done in the house, my garage, for a buddy in his race shop and work garage is to put an outlet right off the breaker box. It gives you a place to plug in a light or power tool as you are working right there. Something to maybe kick around. :beer:

iagree.gif
 

FTG-05

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One thing missing from the 12 ga vs. 14 ga discussion is the "Oh ****" factor.

This is the "Oh ****!, I wish there was a 20 amp circuit right there instead of this 15 amp circuit! Now, I've have to run a whole 'nother circuit - again!".

Yes, I know, everyone on this board knows exactly what they need from their shop/garage and have perfectly designed every aspect of it to the nth degree, including but not limited to: Life changes, hobby changes, priority changes, and lastly, Oh **** changes and nothing will have to change for the next 10, 15, 20 years. The fact of the matter is, life intrudes.

As most of us know, one "Oh ****!" wipes out about a 100 "Atta Boys!".

My plan is to avoid the "Oh ****!" moments. 12 ga/20 amp circuits only for me. I'll take my chances.
 

sands35

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In the 30 plus years I was in the trades I dont remember ever having the desire to buy a 1000' roll of romex,be it 14 or 12g and that includes wiring more houses and garages than I could begin to count.
250' rolls are easy to work with,just peel the plasic shrink wrap off and roll it out across the floor 40-50' at a time whatever you need.(no kinks/twists in wire)
As far as 12g/20a circuits go thats fine for plugs/outlets,but a 20a circuit for some garage lights is totally over kill and just a hell of a lot harder to work with than it needs to be .
But hey if youre into torturing yourself who am I to judge?:dunno::lol:

Yes

I struggle to understand why 12 awg for lights. Not only is 20 amps overkill, but once the ceiliing and soffits are in, they aren't coming down regardless of my desire to put in new lights or outlets. No need to have 18 amps of head space in say a fan circuit.

Just run some conduit to places where you *might* need another outlet or something. Design it for flexibility later and there won't be "oh ****" moments.
 

gcronau

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I feel the same way, I won't allow 14/2 in my (new to me) shop.

Where can you buy the 1000' feet spools of wire? Sure as heck, Lowe's and HD don't have it. And I'm going to need it in a spool, 'cause I'm going to be the one doing most of the wiring and do it by myself!

They sure as heck do, at least in my neck of the woods, 1000' spool for $269.00+Tax:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwir...e-Wire-Yellow-28828201/202316226#.Uj5w3qzd35g

If you want a particular Homedepot item, and they don't stock it in the store, you can order it online and have it shipped to your local store for free, or to your home for a shipping fee. However, if the total order is over something like $75 or $100, shipping to the home is free too. And that spool would definitely qualify for the free home shipping.

In fact, that spool is listed as a "store only" item. All 5 stores in my local area(near Pittsburgh) are showing as having 2 or 3 in stock.

But as others have pointed out, there's oddly no price break once you hit 250'. The Homedepot price for a 250' roll is $67.00(+Tax). So 1000', or 4 rolls, wood be $268.00. Which is $1 *less* than the price of a 1000' spool. I guess the nice wood spool costs you a $1. :wtf:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/SOUTHWIRE-HOST-250-ft-12-2-NM-B-Wire-28828269/202019375#.Uj5vYKzd35g
 

jvitez

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Just for information, the Canadian Electrical Codes specifies 15 amp only lighting circuits for residential wiring. Since not much 12/2 is used here it's noticeably more expensive.

14/2 is a lot easier to work with, especially when you're high up on a ladder running wire along rafters.
 

FTG-05

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They sure as heck do, at least in my neck of the woods, 1000' spool for $269.00+Tax:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwir...e-Wire-Yellow-28828201/202316226#.Uj5w3qzd35g

If you want a particular Homedepot item, and they don't stock it in the store, you can order it online and have it shipped to your local store for free, or to your home for a shipping fee. However, if the total order is over something like $75 or $100, shipping to the home is free too. And that spool would definitely qualify for the free home shipping.

In fact, that spool is listed as a "store only" item. All 5 stores in my local area(near Pittsburgh) are showing as having 2 or 3 in stock.

But as others have pointed out, there's oddly no price break once you hit 250'. The Homedepot price for a 250' roll is $67.00(+Tax). So 1000', or 4 rolls, wood be $268.00. Which is $1 *less* than the price of a 1000' spool. I guess the nice wood spool costs you a $1. :wtf:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/SOUTHWIRE-HOST-250-ft-12-2-NM-B-Wire-28828269/202019375#.Uj5vYKzd35g

Yea, I corrected myself later, I think.

Does anyone make or sell 500' on spools? Frankly, given where I have to run my cables, I think I really need a spool.

Thanks,
 

NUTTSGT

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But as others have pointed out, there's oddly no price break once you hit 250'. The Homedepot price for a 250' roll is $67.00(+Tax). So 1000', or 4 rolls, wood be $268.00. Which is $1 *less* than the price of a 1000' spool. I guess the nice wood spool costs you a $1. :wtf:

Locally it shows $63.29/250' and $253.16/1000' No price break but I get a "free" plastic spool. The last went to my step-dad to coil up some rope on.


I'm fine spending the extra up front just like you guys are fine buying 250' coils of 12/2 or 14/2. Atleast I don't have to worry about you guys buying up the spools when I need the next one. :beer:
 
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