Any reason not to do 3 phase 208v on commercial property?

[infinkc]

I put up a metal building in a commercial property a few years ago. I never had power run to it, but now I’m thinking of renting out the space.

Any reason not to run 3 phase to it? The business around are industrial, auto and grow.

 

[nadogail]

There are advantages to having 3 phase power if you are using it for industrial purposes. So few Hobby shops have 3 phase power that the used machinery has few buyers, the low demand for used 3 phase machines helps keep the prices down.
Three phase power does not limit your options, it increases them.

 

[Shiftless]

Is there any chance that an indoor farmer will rent your metal building once you install power?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

415v 3Ø? what country are you in?

 

[larry_g]

415v 3Ø? what country are you in?

According to his build thread , N. California. Might be an IT guy.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[wyliesdiesels]

According to his build thread , N. California. Might be an IT guy.

lg
no neat sig line

weird how he titled the thread 415v... its been changed now to 208v

 

[BillK]

I would think it would be well worth it if you going to be renting it out. A lot of industrial and machine shop equipment is 3 phase. All of my larger equipment is. The cost is probably not much different if done initially.

 

[930dreamer]

If it's cost effective I'd say it adds value in renters for the space. Evaporative cooler I'm looking at is three phase.

 

[ycgoat]

If cost effective for the new service absolutely go with 3 phase. If you have a giant building or enough land for multiple buildings I would look into higher voltages. Be careful though, some utility companies will charge a fee for under utilization of the service on commercial accounts. It may be worth while to contact a commercial appraiser and find out if it will add any re-sale value.

 

[u2slow]

Have to gauge your rental audience a little. Not all 240v single-phase equipment is happy with 208v.

That said, commercial leases normally leave the tenant to pay for their own service install, should they need something specific. May be wise as a landlord to only provide the very basics.

 

[jar944]

I've never heard anyone complain they had 3ph, only complaints when it's not available.

 

[infinkc]

weird how he titled the thread 415v... its been changed now to 208v

Yea i was mistaken, it is only 120/208 that would be coming in if i went 3 phase.

 

[infinkc]

Is there any chance that an indoor farmer will rent your metal building once you install power?

Yes a possibility as "grows" are legal at this address with the appropriate permits.

 

[BillK]

I bet there isnt that much difference in price between running single phase and three phase to the building. If its in an industrial area I would certainly run the three phase. When I was looking for the building that my business is in that was definitely a deciding factor.

 

[Bopbop]

If 3 phase was available at my house I would have had 3 phase power ran to it.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yea i was mistaken, it is only 120/208 that would be coming in if i went 3 phase.

but 415v is not even an available system voltage in the US. it would be 480v

 

[Norcal]

but 415v is not even an available system voltage in the US. it would be 480v

Data centers in the US are using 415Y/240V because more equipment can be run then with 120V circuits & most IT equipment can run either voltage. There is no prohibition for 240V equipment in a non residential occupancy. Less need for transformers to get 120V cuts the heat load too.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Data centers in the US are using 415Y/240V because more equipment can be run then with 120V circuits & most IT equipment can run either voltage. There is no prohibition for 240V equipment in a non residential occupancy. Less need for transformers to get 120V cuts the heat load too.

Yes but those are a special animal and the data centers are probably providing the step-down transformers themselves via a primary HV feed from the PoCo.

I highly doubt theres any PoCos in the US that are gonna supply 415v/240v to a small commercial property and that was my point....

 

[Norcal]

Yes but those are a special animal and theyre probably providing the step-down transformer themselvesvia a primary HV feed from PoCo

I highly doubt theres any PoCos in the US that are gonna supply 415v/240v to a residential shop or small commercial property and that was my point.

Agreed it's a odd beast, also.

 

[BreeStephany]

For a commercial shop, I would honestly have the PoCo supply 480/277 3ph in, then the customer has the option of running lighting, equipment, HVAC, etc. At 480 to reduce circuit sizes from that of what would be required for the same equipment at 208.

With 480/277 coming in, you can still have 120/208V 3ph, you just need to add a transformer and a 120/208V 3ph Panel with a main disconnect to the secondary on the panel.

The one thing I will say is OVERSIZE your main disconnect / main service panel, whether you go 120/208 or 277/480... It is more costly with an initial investment, but definitely worth it in the long run.

I have been working on a commercial/industrial project for 3+ years now and the customer has outgrown the 1500A and 2500A services on site by repeatedly adding and adding with very poor planning for future needs.

Bassically, If you plan on needing 400A of load, throw in a 800A or 1000A service unless you are absolutely sure that your calculated loads will NEVER be added upon without a complete rebuild of the building & electrical service.

Just my two cents.

 

[Norcal]

If 480V is needed it's a good thing, but if someone just wants is it just add to costs, breakers for 480V & 277V, are more expensive, plus the extra cost for transformer(s) and the loss's that occur, the most important thing is 480V is one of the most dangerous voltages and not for the untrained.

 

[theoldwizard1]

According to his build thread , N. California. Might be an IT guy.

I was in IT when some of our "big iron" needed 3 phase. That is where I learned what little I know about it. Like large blowers (fans) that run on 3Ø can blow the wrong direction ! Simply swap 2 wires (phases).

Also, some electronic equipment will not run without both a neutral and a ground.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Data centers in the US are using 415Y/240V because more equipment can be run then with 120V circuits ...

In the early 2000s, I was in charge of 3 different data centers in SE MI. Some were small, but one as pretty darn good sized. (Maybe 5 tennis courts ?). Most were feed by 208V 3Ø. Some used higher voltage. The equipment we ran was form the 80s/90s. It either used 208V 3Ø or 120V single phase. Nothing used 240V. Well, we did have one high speed laser printer that said it needed 240V, but it had an internal transformer that had an input tap for 208V.

 

[Norcal]

In the early 2000s, I was in charge of 3 different data centers in SE MI. Some were small, but one as pretty darn good sized. (Maybe 5 tennis courts ?). Most were feed by 208V 3Ø. Some used higher voltage. The equipment we ran was form the 80s/90s. It either used 208V 3Ø or 120V single phase. Nothing used 240V. Well, we did have one high speed laser printer that said it needed 240V, but it had an internal transformer that had an input tap for 208V.

This would be more recent & would be on a Amazon scale, where the economics would pay.

 

[Norcal]

This would be more recent & would be on a Amazon scale, where the economics would pay, and the A/C load would require more then 208V.

 

[Onebean]

First off, I’m no electrician, but we added a 480 service to an existing building g with 208, and it has opened up a lot of options for us. I agree with BreeStephany, and will add another advantage of 480VAC. With 480 your wiring from the panel to the machine is significantly smaller gauge. That is a big deal in today’s copper market. As mentioned already, when you transform down to less voltage, your available amps increase too. A 400 amp 480 service can be transformed into an 800 amp 208 service. Obviously these are all benefits to the user, not necessarily the landlord. It does open up a lot of possibilities for renters that need serious power.

 

[Bretny]

If 3 phase was available at my house I would have had 3 phase power ran to it.

Have family that had 3ph available, ran it into the shop, used it for about 20yrs then disconnected it as it was more per month vs 240v 1ph power after the shop uses changed of course.

 

[William Payne]

3 phase power was the best thing I ever did. I am in the 400-415v 3-phase camp and I couldn't live without it now. Full caveat though is I have 3 phase equipment that requires it. I am in a residential neighborhood though.

 

[dscheidt]

In the early 2000s, I was in charge of 3 different data centers in SE MI. Some were small, but one as pretty darn good sized. (Maybe 5 tennis courts ?). Most were feed by 208V 3Ø. Some used higher voltage. The equipment we ran was form the 80s/90s. It either used 208V 3Ø or 120V single phase. Nothing used 240V. Well, we did have one high speed laser printer that said it needed 240V, but it had an internal transformer that had an input tap for 208V.

415V 30A 3ph circuit gets you 17.3 KW to the rack, instead instead of 8.6 for 208V. Power is the limiting factor in high-performance DC density, followed by removing the heat. There are GPU based servers that use 2500W in 2U, for a rack full you'd need 50 KW.

 

[infinkc]

Well heard back from the power company, these are my 3 options for the property:
120/240 volt single phase
120/240 volt three phase
120/208 volt three phase

Guessing i will be doing the 120/240 3 phase, but any reason i should consider 208?

 

[83VillageRepair]

Well heard back from the power company, these are my 3 options for the property:
120/240 volt single phase
120/240 volt three phase
120/208 volt three phase

Guessing i will be doing the 120/240 3 phase, but any reason i should consider 208?

What you need is load dependent. I would say 120/208 is more common for small commercial but if you pick the wrong one all it takes later is a dry type transformer to make the one you need.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Well heard back from the power company, these are my 3 options for the property:
120/240 volt single phase
120/240 volt three phase
120/208 volt three phase

Guessing i will be doing the 120/240 3 phase, but any reason i should consider 208?

be careful with the stinger leg/hi-leg, which is 208v to neutral. This means you will only have 2 phases that can power 120v loads. you will also have to use straight rated breakers (240v to ground) instead of slash rated breakers (120v to ground) due to the 208v to ground on the stinger leg

 

[AZ Garage]

Well heard back from the power company, these are my 3 options for the property:
120/240 volt single phase
120/240 volt three phase
120/208 volt three phase

Guessing i will be doing the 120/240 3 phase, but any reason i should consider 208?

I'd stay away from the 120/240 3-Phase(Delta) as you're limited on the number of 120V breakers you can have due to the hi-leg(stinger/wild/etc.).

If it were me I'd go with 120/208V 3-Phase out of all these options.

 

[u2slow]

If this happens to be vacant at any time, and you wish to keep the lights/heat on.... Do check if 3-phase is going to cost you extra.

Its not uncommon to see commercial buildings around here with dual services. (The 3-phase only get 'lit up' if the tenant wants to take that on.)

 

[infinkc]

What you need is load dependent. I would say 120/208 is more common for small commercial but if you pick the wrong one all it takes later is a dry type transformer to make the one you need.

Hmm, the power company is stating if i go 120/208 i need to buy the panel from them, is this not common?

be careful with the stinger leg/hi-leg, which is 208v to neutral. This means you will only have 2 phases that can power 120v loads. you will also have to use straight rated breakers (240v to ground) instead of slash rated breakers (120v to ground) due to the 208v to ground on the stinger leg

ok, something i didnt consider, thanks!

I'd stay away from the 120/240 3-Phase(Delta) as you're limited on the number of 120V breakers you can have due to the hi-leg(stinger/wild/etc.).

If it were me I'd go with 120/208V 3-Phase out of all these options.

thanks for the input!

If this happens to be vacant at any time, and you wish to keep the lights/heat on.... Do check if 3-phase is going to cost you extra.

Its not uncommon to see commercial buildings around here with dual services. (The 3-phase only get 'lit up' if the tenant wants to take that on.)

Think the only extra is my initial cost as i need to run the service line from the transformer, once there its there.

 

[83VillageRepair]

Hmm, the power company is stating if i go 120/208 i need to buy the panel from them, is this not common?

I suspect they meant the meter socket/service disconnect, not the panel.

 

[Norcal]

I suspect they meant the meter socket/service disconnect, not the panel.

Only some PoCo's supply meter cans, the customer is usually responsible for supplying & wiring everything except the meter, in addition to being required to comply with code, the installation must meet PoCo specs.

 

[Steve from Socal]

I am going to suggest that 240 Delta service is a much better choice IMHO than 208. Most machinery is dual rated 240/480 it 'may run' on 208 but not great. I have 480 service with a 240/120 delta transformer both my single phase loads 240 and 120 are spread out in 5 no 7 panels, it's a big shop. The only drawback is you may need a sub panel IF you need a lot of 120 circuits.

The rate should be about the same for 208wye or 240 delta.

Steve

 

[infinkc]

Only some PoCo's supply meter cans, the customer is usually responsible for supplying & wiring everything except the meter, in addition to being required to comply with code, the installation must meet PoCo specs.

I suspect they meant the meter socket/service disconnect, not the panel.

Well found out that its a full transformer and engineering from the PoCo if i want the 208/120. Cost of 35K+ so that is now out of the question.

So now down to 240/120 3ph and 240/120 1ph. So its looking like the 240/120 3ph is my choice. Waiting to hear back if they can do it 400a now.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Well found out that its a full transformer and engineering from the PoCo if i want the 208/120. Cost of 35K+ so that is now out of the question.

So now down to 240/120 3ph and 240/120 1ph. So its looking like the 240/120 3ph is my choice. Waiting to hear back if they can do it 400a now.

make sure you can source the straight rated breakers that you will need for 240 Delta. you cant use slash rated 120/240v breakers due to the 208v to ground hi-leg. The breakers need the higher rating for ground faults as the voltage and energy is higher. this would be for any double pole and 3 pole breakers since single pole breakers cannot go on the hi-leg unless you want to let out the magic smoke on 120v equipment.