Any structural engineers here? I-beam/Trolly question!

[Brad54]

Looking at installing a trolly and chain hoist in my shop remodel.
It'll span about 15 feet.
The shop building is completed already, so I can't have a crane or back hoe or anything come in to lift it into place, so I'll have to do it with a couple friends and ladders.
My question is this: What size I-beam would I need to suspend about 800 pounds MAX from, in the middle of it. It'll be used for pulling engines, and things lighter. I don't need something capable of lifting a tank turret into place.

 

[matt_i]

In my shop build I used an S10 x 35#/ft to span 18', I give it a 1000# rating.

Lifting the ~650# beam wasn't trivial and caused significant extra work.

However the job absolutely does not end there. There are issues with columns, the concrete work below, how to brace the top flange of the beam and/or brace the columns in both x,y directions that aren't typically loaded (z is loaded). If you are attaching to wood framing the job is considerably more complex because now you have to design and fabricate bolted attachments (weld or bolt to steel, thru-bolt to wood). If you are bolting direct to concrete its time to brush up on epoxied anchors, their sizing & materials, and how to install them for max pullout resistance, and find an SDS drill.

I'm going to guess you will pay $1/lb for steel or more. Someone has to saw or torch cut it to your length dimension as well.

 

[readhead]

Matt gave a pretty accurate overview of the process. Depending on the size of the beam one or two genie lifts can be used to place the beam. Fabricate the beam to column connections with shear tabs so you don’t have to slide the beam between the roof framing and the columns. The two critical factors will be the connection to the roof framing, which is fairly easy, but more importantly the bearing under the columns. You aren’t looking at a large point load but the condition of the concrete at that point should be considered. Cutting out a section of concrete and pouring a footing may be in order. Again, not a difficult proposition.

 

[Jeffh40]

Been there, done that. Don't use ladders and try to lift the beam in place. That is risky and if it falls, you have issues. When I did it, I went up into the attic space, and tied 3 roof trusses together by screwing some 2x6s to them and used a chain hoist to raise the beam. Did all this myself in a couple hours.

 

[OccupantRJ]

Not an engineer, but have built 4 lift beams in shops. Here is a photo album of how I did mine. It runs with the trusses, and needed to be recessed into the ceiling for more headroom. I restructured the trusses with additional bracing and cross ties. Bungs were welded onto the beam, and threaded rods run into the attic and each rod passes through two 3x3-1/2” oak crossmembers bolted into the truss structure I created. The plywood “roof” of the recess ties the two trusses together laterally. The two trusses ended up similar to the way wooden covered bridges were built.

Link.
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/album.php?albumid=3663

 

[blazemaster83]

I have a Wallace gantry crane that spans 15' and uses an s10x25.4 beam. That crane is rated to pick 3 tons and I have definitely pushed that with no visual flex. Before I had a forklift, I assembled the crane by climbing a tree and hooking up a small chain hoist where I was able to lift the beams and move the legs into place.

 

[bczygan]

Using a 15' span, 2000 pound load at middle of span and a 6x15 W shape beam, the deflection will be .288 inches, which is well within the .5 inch allowable deflection for an L/360 limit.

Beam will weigh 225 pounds.

Bill

 

[Jeffh40]

Using a 15' span, 2000 pound load at middle of span and a 6x15 W shape beam, the deflection will be .288 inches, which is well within the .5 inch allowable deflection for an L/360 limit.

Beam will weigh 225 pounds.

Bill

Crane beams need to be rated for impact loads not UDL loads listed in the 15th edition. That said, a W10x22 should be more than sufficientand won't cost that much more.

 

[GMCGarage]

Crane beams need to be rated for impact loads not UDL loads listed in the 15th edition. That said, a W10x22 should be more than sufficientand won't cost that much more.

2000lbs is well over the 800lbs requested, and thus covers impact. W10x22 is overkill.

 

[Brad54]

Thanks for the input, guys!
Typically, I am the king of "There's no kill like overkill," but in this case I'm wondering a few things:
It will be used almost exclusively for lifting engines out of cars with a chain hoist. I don't need it to lift anything heavier than that, because I simply don't use or own anything heavier than that.
That's well under 1,000 pounds.
I'm thinking round heavy-wall tubing for the uprights, with a square base plate welded to the bottom, and screwed to the floor. The I-beam would have round tubing on the bottom side of it that slips down onto the top of the uprights, and is then welded or thru-bolted to the uprights.
Why do I need to pour an extra footing or extra thick concrete under the uprights? I don't have extra-thick concrete under the four casters on my engine hoist, or the three wheels of the engine stand I've got an engine sitting on.
I don't expect the I-beam and uprights will weight THAT much. I'm lifting an engine, not a whole car on a 2-post lift.
I won't be sliding the loaded chain hoist that far, if at all. Why do I need to tie the beam into the roof rafters? There will be very little, if any, side loads on the thing.

 

[kbs2244]

Visit your local steel supplier with your info
They will have an engineer who can answer your questions.
And offer install service as well.

I would not be surprised if they recommend 4-inch pipe supports at the ends of the beam.

 

[readhead]

It needs to be restrained at the top so it doesn't roll over with a load on it. Just screwing it to the concrete won't keep it upright. I indicated earlier that you need to know what the condition of the concrete is and if it is able to support the steel. If it has subsided or there are lots of cracks then you need to fix it. As I mentioned this will not be a very large point load and that if the concrete is in good condition it should be fine. Using columns with shear tabs and bolts will make the beam a lot easier to install.

 

[mcbane]

Crane beams need to be rated for impact loads not UDL loads listed in the 15th edition. That said, a W10x22 should be more than sufficientand won't cost that much more.

+1

Cranes are designed with high safety factors to account for the hoist that slipped, the load you accidentally tried to lift with the chain or cable not plumb, or the time someone tries to pull the engine but has missed one or more mount bolts.

Don’t be cheap.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JDMopar]

Why not just build an A frame type hoist? Make it so you can take it apart and store it outside when not in use. I've used one, and it worked well. I also used a chain hoist hooked to the floor trusses for the first floor of my house, while working in my basement. It worked fine when that was all I had! Now, I MUCH prefer my fold up cherry picker. It just stands in the corner out of my way when I don't need it!

 

[tarmy]

This is a 4”x4” beam...flange thickness is 3/8”.

It is tied to the rafters 18” oc...and the bolt pattern and sizes were all part of the truss design. The trusses were designed for the load...and spread of that load...as well.

Talk to an engineer...especially if you will be under the load...

 

[Ironcrow]

For the modest load and modest span, I'd consider sistering a joist on each side of the existing joist, and bolting a hunk of angle iron on each side to run the trolley on. On a first guess I'd expect the existing sill and wall to support the additional load and therefore avoid needing to add columns.

You need to know or find out the live and dead loads the roof joists are designed for in the first place. Of course, I'd run a few numbers on the back of an napkin to see if it makes sense.

 

[Brad54]

For the modest load and modest span, I'd consider sistering a joist on each side of the existing joist, and bolting a hunk of angle iron on each side to run the trolley on. On a first guess I'd expect the existing sill and wall to support the additional load and therefore avoid needing to add columns.

You need to know or find out the live and dead loads the roof joists are designed for in the first place. Of course, I'd run a few numbers on the back of an napkin to see if it makes sense.

I sort of did this in the first configuration. I sandwiched an original rafter with a pair of 2x6 boards, bolted through all three. One end of the boards ran back to the top plate of the wall and set on it, and at the other side of the boards, I simply put a 4x4 wood timber up, knocked into place, under the truss/boards.
Pulled several engines that way, and there was no problem.
I'm typically not a redneck engineer... I had no confidence issues with that set up.

 

[Brad54]

Why not just build an A frame type hoist? Make it so you can take it apart and store it outside when not in use. I've used one, and it worked well. I also used a chain hoist hooked to the floor trusses for the first floor of my house, while working in my basement. It worked fine when that was all I had! Now, I MUCH prefer my fold up cherry picker. It just stands in the corner out of my way when I don't need it!

I've got a good cherry picker. Hate using it. And while I've got space to store things, I hate having to store things.
A chain hoist also gives a whole lot more control, and I don't have to worry about sliding the hoist in and out with it loaded, etc. etc.

 

[OccupantRJ]

My original hoist beam in the first shop was a S6x12.5, 32 feet long. It was welded on top of two 3” pipe columns with a foot plate anchored to the floor. 1/2” B7 threaded rod was welded to the top of the beam every 24”. The rods stuck up into the attic between trusses, and the beam was perpendicular to the trusses.

On top of the trosses was a 2x4 running parallel with the beam, with holes drilled through it to act as a clamping plate on the top chord of the trusses. 2” square washers and hex nuts were used on the threaded rod to clamp the assembly together. Two pieces of 2x6 were screwed into the side of the 2x4 creating a U shaped channel to stiffen the assembly.

I lifted the front end of a 1968 Impala off the floor as a test, it passed, and I set to work using the beam for 20 years dealing with machinery. My friend has used it for 14 more.
It is easier to construct a hoist beam setup with it running perpendicular to the trusses than parallel to them. My present beam setup required a large amount of bracing and extra wood construction overhead.

My engineering reference for my beams was growing up pulling engines and transmissions with an old car driveshaft laying across the rafters for a hoist “beam”.

With that being said, never get your body parts under a suspended load no matter WHAT it is hooked to overhead! Gravity never sleeps.

 

[s14kev]

If not connected to the framing at the top I’d be inclined to treat it like a 2 post lift and cut the slab to pour footers. At least for any serious use it would be worthwhile at least having an engineer spec out the beam, posts and anchor method. On a side note we just have three steel beams installed. Two of them are W88 x 28ft. That’s about 2500 pounds each. Having a crew lift them in place is stressful when you are the homeowner!

 

[matt_i]

If not connected to the framing at the top I’d be inclined to treat it like a 2 post lift and cut the slab to pour footers.

I don't think one needs to go that far. The downward load is nothing special for a 4" slab. But its the misaligned loads that have to be accounted for. The 4" OD Sch 40 pipe would be sufficient imo, but it would be wise to have a 12" square baseplate at the bottom, drill some 7/8" holes and epoxy 3/4" threaded rods.

The baseplate gets to be a trip problem unless a person is creative at working around it.

However if a person wanted a setup where the baseplate is eliminated, then you'd do well to cut the floor and pour a concrete cube and embed the column. This relies on the soil's 2000psf bearing to handle the misaligned loads, of course there's some extra available by edge-drilling the existing slab and using rebar studs to tie it all together.