Any trim carpenters here?

[MarkG]

I've worked a cabinet shop, done trim carpentry and woodworking, as well as doing it on my own when people call from time to time and was wondering if there are any other trim carpentry guys here and if so, how do you charge (in general)---by time or by 'lineal foot'? I'm speaking of the typical baseboard and crown molding and door casing for the sake of this post.

For a long time, I charged hourly, but lately, I've been wanting a more sure, accurate way to estimate (since that's what the customer always wants to know!!) and was working on coming up with a pricing structure based on lineal feet and number of corners. It seems like this would closely reflect the time too, since that's where the time comes in. Also, I'm thinking there should be a premium for ceilings over 8'!

Part of my re-thinking this involved a recent job where an artist basically wanted a framed (on the back), large piece of Masonite to use as a 'canvas'. She informed me that she may be ordering more at various sizes in the future, so I wanted to come up with a 'pricing structure' relating to the size right off the bat, and settled on a price 'per foot of perimeter', since that's where the work lies, mostly. I don't think 'square foot' pricing accurately reflects actual work, at least on small jobs like this. To make a simple illustration, compare building a frame on a piece of Masonite like the one I mentioned, on a 1 x 1' square and a 3 x 3' square-----should the 3 x 3' really cost 9X as much?? It's still 4 fairly short pieces of wood and 4 joints and probably takes a minute longer to do, if that. Seems unrealistic to me, hence the perimeter distance method I settled on and am 'extrapolating' to trim carpentry jobs.

Any general thoughts or advice on this from you trim guys? Thanks.

 

[ssdave]

Three thoughts. My background is a consulting engineer, so have a lot of experience estimating and billing.

First: Make sure you have some factors in there for risk or complexity. Lineal footage of crown molding around a built in set of library shelves of varying depths, in an old house that who knows how square it is makes for a lot different job than trimming in a new set of cabinets in a newly built house. You can account for this by multiplying the base job cost by a risk/complexity factor, or by adding in an estimated amount of additional time, or by having an extremely complicated table of unit costs for each type of work.

Second: Account for fixed costs of similar tasks in addition to incremental costs: Framing a 16 x 16 inch picture takes almost the same amount of time as framing a 4 x 6 inch, although it takes 3 times as much material. Somehow you need to account for 4 items of cost: Base cost to deal with the client, Increment of time to do the task, 4 corners that add incremental cost, and length of trim that adds material cost. If you just use the last 2 cost items, you'll undercharge or overcharge one of the two jobs.

Third: Be aware of increments of time and bill accordingly. If it takes 6 3/4 hours, you need to charge out a day. The rest of the day won't be very productive. If it takes 15 minutes, you'll starve estimating, billing, and talking to the client about the job at flat rate lineal footage job rate. Some people charge a minimum amount; say $100, regardless of how small the job is.

I've always given this advice to contractors and consultants that are starting out in the business. If you're good, it's a SERVICE to your clients to do the work, and there is no benefit to underbidding the job, so that you're not there to do the next job next month or next year. Bill out a fair amount that will keep you in business so that you will be around to provide that service the next time they need it, or when they recommend you to their friends. Today, it is getting harder and harder to find good tradesmen to do work for you. Charge fairly but enough to stay in business and take care of your family, and you'll have plenty of clients. Don't train your clients to be cheap by underbidding some of their work.

I've seen many good tradesman and contractors go out of business because they were so concerned with being the low bidder that they got disgusted with their quality of life and went to work for someone else.

 

[vartz04]

I do some of the estimating at my company (I am a project manager) you should have some records of what the LF of previous jobs is and how many hours you took. If not keep charging hourly and start tracking your production rates. That's what I use for all of my bidding (documented production rates) you should come up with a LF per MH as a base line. Then add material equipment consumables overhead and profit

 

[Cyberbear]

I owned and operated a custom woodworking shop for 27 years before retiring. Smaller jobs like picture frames that I built in the shop were priced at time and material. Larger field jobs installing baseboard or ceiling molding would require a field estimate also based on time and materials. I would would qualify potential customers in order to keep out those wanting a free estimate. When I was very busy in the shop, I would charge an estimation fee since an average estimate in the field for larger jobs would require two or more hours of my time. I would offer to deduct the estimation fee if they chose to place an order for molding or cabinetwork. Working with the public can be very tedious.

 

[willymakeit]

Trimmed for years.
Base and case with door set by the square foot.
Crown, picture rail ect. by the lineal foot. Also price goes up the higher off the floor as time increases.
There are other factors also, high end, tract work that affect price.

 

[ibedayank]

it takes the the time takes.... older the house the more it costs as older means nothing is perfectly plumb or square anymore

 

[MarkG]

Thanks for all the thoughts------good things to keep in mind!