mtwaterguy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2007
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Or you could build using commercial girts and still be way ahead of stick built even when finishing the inside. Problem is lack of planning. The seven P's work well here.
anybody regret doing a pole building?
- Thread starter madmaxnj
- Start date
Or you could build using commercial girts and still be way ahead of stick built even when finishing the inside. Problem is lack of planning. The seven P's work well here.
Double J
Well-known member
No regrets whatsoever. So I continue saying that in 30 yrs, I went with Permacolumns.
Parrothead
Well-known member
Thanks guys!!! We’re going to need to redo the pole barn at my father in laws in a year or so and replace the poles. Turns out PermaColumn is less than a 1/2 hour away!
https://www.permacolumn.com
*oh, and the pole barn is pretty old, my guess would be around 50 years or so.
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MrSurly
Well-known member
I'm curious; were the original posts Wolmanized, creosoted or something else?
Parrothead
Well-known member
No idea.
It was used on an actual farm though. The discussion is to repair it, get a slab put under it and use it as storage for the cars, trailer, boat, truck and old tractor/farm equipment. The barn hasn’t been a working barn in 30 years. The land is now leased.
MrSurly
Well-known member
Explain, please "commercial girts"
lakeroadster
Well-known member
That dog won't hunt. My dad built a pole barn using oak trees as columns... they rotted out in 20 years.
It was in a swampy area, no gutters, bad grading and the poles were soaked in horse piss the entire time.... 'cause it was used as a barn for the horses, tractors, hay, etc.
Piss poor planning and implementation doesn't mean the idea is bad. Don't evaluate the project based on Mr. Wrong's result... evaluate it based on how Mr. Right did the same project.
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MrSurly
Well-known member
Dragfluid
ALLIANCE MEMBER
No regrets here. I love my building! Warm (right now in winter), quiet, and roomy.
As far as the cost difference, running 2x4 girts 24" on center on the inside walls was minimal. Now I have 8 1/2" of dense packed cellulose behind them.
How much more would it cost to have the same results in a stick built? 2x8x14's aren't cheap. And using a 2x8 stud would mean less insulation.
And the pressure treated posts not lasting? I think that argument has been beat to death, hasn't it?
As far as the cost difference, running 2x4 girts 24" on center on the inside walls was minimal. Now I have 8 1/2" of dense packed cellulose behind them.
How much more would it cost to have the same results in a stick built? 2x8x14's aren't cheap. And using a 2x8 stud would mean less insulation.
And the pressure treated posts not lasting? I think that argument has been beat to death, hasn't it?
MrSurly
Well-known member
From this I will assume that by ”commercial girts” you are referring to what are also called Bookshelf girts?
The engineer that was doing my drawing was opposed to them, citing 1.) reduced rigidity
2.) added bracing
3.) higher cost
4.) increased difficulty
5.) extra build time.
I got the distinct impression he didn’t like them. So, I went conventional.
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Yes bookshelf/commercial girts, same thing.
My inspector wanted vertical blocking halfway between the posts (4ft), i thought this was overkill for the size of my building but it made it MUCH more rigid. I can stand on the girts with no flex now.
There is some added cost for the blocking, all the 2ft pieced did add up to quite a bit. And it was time consuming, but i did all the work myself so i did not have to pay any one for the added time.
If i were to do it again i would not even consider building without commercial/bookshelf girts.
slowTA
Well-known member
So when using bookshelf/commercial girts, with siding right up against the poles/girts on the inside and outside, how would you run wires through the wall? Drill holes through the posts or come down from the ceiling? I'm planning on 12 foot walls so that could be a ton of extra wire depending on the location.
I'm assuming you could do a combination of standard girts on the outside with bookshelf (bonus points if you fasten them to each other) to snake wires in behind the posts.
I'm assuming you could do a combination of standard girts on the outside with bookshelf (bonus points if you fasten them to each other) to snake wires in behind the posts.
MrSurly
Well-known member
The engineer’s concern about rigidity wasn’t the girts themselves, it was the lateral rigidity of the wall. In a high wind, for example, the East wall’s resistance to the header moving North/South and making it a parallelogram vs a rectangle. The vertical blocking probably would help *some*.
This is primarily stiffened in this direction by the steel siding but the normal girts are key as well.
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This is primarily stiffened in this direction by the steel siding but the normal girts are key as well.
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ckyle29
Active member
The girts on the outside of the pole that the metal fastens to will create a 1.5 inch gap (assuming 2X4 girts) between the pole and the metal, perfect for running around the pole. That's what my electrician did for long runs along the walls.
slowTA
Well-known member
Right, but that's with standard girts. Bookshelf girts go between the posts (instead of on the in/outside) and do not create the gap that your electrical runs in.
They will if you off set them like I did. The offset allows the use of flat and commercial girts in the same wall and a smooth line from top to bottom. Looking back I wish I would have used a 2x8 for the commercial girts on the 6x6 post.
lg
no neat sig line
larry4406
Well-known member
All these pole barns seem to be on relatively flat grade or lots where the low point can be raised to match the high point. Thus the slab is more or less slab on grade with perhaps some thought to turn down edges for frost heave.
When terrain involves a bank that the barn needs to be pushed into, how does this method work? I’m thinking this is when one turns to foundation with stick frame.
When terrain involves a bank that the barn needs to be pushed into, how does this method work? I’m thinking this is when one turns to foundation with stick frame.
rwilly
Well-known member
After some thought, the reason I didn’t like my pole building was the metal siding.
No insulation meant it was cold during the winters.
My neighbor built pole building with wood siding and it’s nice.
No insulation meant it was cold during the winters.
My neighbor built pole building with wood siding and it’s nice.
MSH1
Member
like2wheel
Well-known member
What did you do for shear?
I built my original 24x36x8 garage 15 years ago using post frame construction studded out between posts with OSB sheathing, vinyl siding and concrete floor. I did pretty much all the work myself and had less than $8k total in it including electrical. I could not have touched that figure with stick built. I did what I could afford and don't regret it at all.
Of course no garage is ever big enough, or in my case high enough for a lift, so 8 years ago I added on a 16x24x12 bay using the same construction. Total cost for that was under $6k.
From the outside the only clue that it's not a stick build is that the siding goes the whole way to grade. With that in mind I used treated plywood for the first 4 ft of the sheathing and all the studs (2x6) were treated lumber.
I don't have it insulated but it wouldn't be hard to do as the studs are already there, if I wanted to make that investment. I don't work out there much in the winter but when I do I close off the lift bay from the rest as there is already a wall with a man door between it and the rest of the garage, and use a torpedo which keeps it plenty warm enough.
When you have a budget as tight as mine you have to really think about saving money where you can without compromising the usefulness of the building.
Of course no garage is ever big enough, or in my case high enough for a lift, so 8 years ago I added on a 16x24x12 bay using the same construction. Total cost for that was under $6k.
From the outside the only clue that it's not a stick build is that the siding goes the whole way to grade. With that in mind I used treated plywood for the first 4 ft of the sheathing and all the studs (2x6) were treated lumber.
I don't have it insulated but it wouldn't be hard to do as the studs are already there, if I wanted to make that investment. I don't work out there much in the winter but when I do I close off the lift bay from the rest as there is already a wall with a man door between it and the rest of the garage, and use a torpedo which keeps it plenty warm enough.
When you have a budget as tight as mine you have to really think about saving money where you can without compromising the usefulness of the building.
MSH1
Member
Each bracket has 4, 18"-#5 rebar welded to them. Also put 4 more bars in each hole.
like2wheel
Well-known member
Handyfarmer
Well-known member
I built a pole barn chicken house a number of years ago, my SIL who was building them at the time was telling me time and time again how great they were,
so I thought I would do this build "pole barn" type, it is 12 wide and about 20 foot long,
by the time I was done I had used up as much lumber as conventional construction,
it is still doing well, but since we have a concrete floor with a deepend edge to keep things from digging under it, I wish I would have just gone conventional stick framing now, as I have planted hundreds of "life time" treated posts, and I do not know how many I have replaced over the years, so one day I will bet the posts will rot off, will most likely make some kind of angle steel bracket to bolt it to the floor, in time,
by the time I when in with my laminated posts, and then put on stringers the saving in lumber was non existent, may be for a larger building there may be some savings, but not that much in my calculations, if you have posts that are laminated, 4 thick on 2 foot centers that is 8 foot of wall, and take the stingers on the sides, usually at least 4 of the, one for the plate and possibly 2 for the top plate, that still leaves one for a stud, so the posts and the stringers are equal to 10 foot of wall at 2 foot on center, the tin my have to be ran horizontal if one does not sheet it, but that is not a problem, the roof is about the same, rafters either extra heavy ones that are spaced 8 to 10 feet apart with purlins across then for the roof, or most likely the lumber would be close if converted to more rafters of lighter construction 2 foot apart, (the draw back one most likely would have to sheet the rood with some type of plywood materials),
but nothing says one can not do the roof system like a pole barn sitting on studded walls,
so I thought I would do this build "pole barn" type, it is 12 wide and about 20 foot long,
by the time I was done I had used up as much lumber as conventional construction,
it is still doing well, but since we have a concrete floor with a deepend edge to keep things from digging under it, I wish I would have just gone conventional stick framing now, as I have planted hundreds of "life time" treated posts, and I do not know how many I have replaced over the years, so one day I will bet the posts will rot off, will most likely make some kind of angle steel bracket to bolt it to the floor, in time,
by the time I when in with my laminated posts, and then put on stringers the saving in lumber was non existent, may be for a larger building there may be some savings, but not that much in my calculations, if you have posts that are laminated, 4 thick on 2 foot centers that is 8 foot of wall, and take the stingers on the sides, usually at least 4 of the, one for the plate and possibly 2 for the top plate, that still leaves one for a stud, so the posts and the stringers are equal to 10 foot of wall at 2 foot on center, the tin my have to be ran horizontal if one does not sheet it, but that is not a problem, the roof is about the same, rafters either extra heavy ones that are spaced 8 to 10 feet apart with purlins across then for the roof, or most likely the lumber would be close if converted to more rafters of lighter construction 2 foot apart, (the draw back one most likely would have to sheet the rood with some type of plywood materials),
but nothing says one can not do the roof system like a pole barn sitting on studded walls,
A lot of good discussion here. Thanks to all for the feedback. The variance hearing went about as well as can be expected. I am getting worried about rainwater, drainage, and soil/poles moving though. All my neighbors that came to complain, complained "where is the water going to to? I have flooding, I have sink holes, etc." All these complaints after it was already established that I would have to pipe the gutters into a catch basin on the back of my property. Yet 3 neighbors had the same complaint. Zoning board guys have a ton of patience to put up with this. There is still technically 30+45 days before I can build without risk of a zoning issue. In 30 days the approval resolution is read, then this is 45 days someone can appeal (protest). If I start building in that 30-45 day window and a protest is filed, i might be screwed.
There is a bit of a slope from the front to the back of where the building will be, ~22" drop across the 40' diagonal front corner to opposite back corner. Shortly behind that corner there is a big drop off into a swale/drainage area. That area is actually an easement and I cannot build on it. That's where the catch basin is that I need to plumb the gutters into. Measuring back there today where that corner pole would go, I would probably need to build a retaining wall right behind it right on the edge of the easement, and I'd still be worried about that pole walking away over time. I think for my situation, a full foundation there is really the way to go. I still need to get the builder on site to assess the situation for the final estimate.
There is a bit of a slope from the front to the back of where the building will be, ~22" drop across the 40' diagonal front corner to opposite back corner. Shortly behind that corner there is a big drop off into a swale/drainage area. That area is actually an easement and I cannot build on it. That's where the catch basin is that I need to plumb the gutters into. Measuring back there today where that corner pole would go, I would probably need to build a retaining wall right behind it right on the edge of the easement, and I'd still be worried about that pole walking away over time. I think for my situation, a full foundation there is really the way to go. I still need to get the builder on site to assess the situation for the final estimate.
I built a 40x120 pole barn in 2002. Sliding doors and a dirt floor. It's served it's purpose for storing hay and equipment. The biggest regret I have is critter control. Without a proper foundation, it's easy for mice and groundhogs to burrow under the wall and make a home under the bales, and the mice have chewed wiring on the tractors.
I have two other buildings on the property that were built since. One is a 20x60 equipment shed, the other is a 40x60 shop. Both were stick built on a poured foundation and poured concrete floors. Instead of using sliding barn doors, both buildings utilize overhead doors. These buildings seal up much, much better. Less dust and dirt. and the shop is insulated and heated. The best part is there are no critters. No groundhogs. No mice.
Obviously, foundations, poured floors, and overhead doors add to the cost. But from now on I will pay the extra for a better building.
I have two other buildings on the property that were built since. One is a 20x60 equipment shed, the other is a 40x60 shop. Both were stick built on a poured foundation and poured concrete floors. Instead of using sliding barn doors, both buildings utilize overhead doors. These buildings seal up much, much better. Less dust and dirt. and the shop is insulated and heated. The best part is there are no critters. No groundhogs. No mice.
Obviously, foundations, poured floors, and overhead doors add to the cost. But from now on I will pay the extra for a better building.
lakeroadster
Well-known member
For the burrowing critters burying stainless hardware cloth around the barn perimeter, extending out about 3 feet, stops them dead in their tracks. It's a good idea to use this regardless on a pole barn even with a slab.. as it prevents the burrowing critters from ruining the nice compacted sub grade under the slab.
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jives
Well-known member
My build shows what you can do with a pole barn, and why it can be preferable to stick built. Sorry, but I still have not fixed the photo bucket debacle.
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=287155&highlight=garage+gym+jives
We had regular girts AND bookshelf girts. No additional framing necessary for insulation and interior finishing. The Amish who put it up did the bookshelf girts in no time, with not much extra cost. There is OSB siding, housewrap, and steel siding. Could have gone with Hardieplank, vinyl -- or anything else.
So, why pole barn?
1. $10-12K cheaper, which was the cost quote for a full foundation. What a waste; no reason for a full foundation, when 10,000 lb PSI (IIRC) concrete columns (Permacolumns) at each pole, and a couple of bags of Redi-mix per hole, will do the job.
2. I have open vaulted ceilings to 22' with scissor trusses. Gable walls are one piece, 28' high. Possible with stick framing, but it is done in pieces, requires more engineering, and more bracing. Pole framing is a much better option.
3. Site prep required 240 tons of compacted gravel to level the pad. Some of the pole holes needed to get down beyond the 48" code to get to undisturbed soil. Really no more cost for an additional 6 inches of hole depth, but that would have cost a bundle with a standard footer and frost wall.
4. In my old home the CMU basement walls and the CMU crawl space walls were crumbling when we bought the house when it was 40 years old. Mortar failing, parging falling off, wall bowing, individual blocks crumbling. We spent a lot of money fixing the foundation. I reckon that could happen with the permacolumns, but I'm sure 40 years is well in the future.
5. Pole style buildings have been around for thousands of years. The above ground structure, while not on par with a timber-framed home, has similar characteristics of relying on stout timbers (or engineered posts). Stick framed homes were an outcome of the industrial revolution that made nails and milled lumber cheap, and lots of cheap labor. They were, and continue to be, the fastest way to slap together a building. There is nothing special about a stick-built building.
6. Our house, which we had built, is stick built on a footer/frost wall. Water table too high for a basement. The main reason we went with a stick built was future ability to sell. We thought about Morton and in our region, Fingerlakes Construction. Most of the gas station mini-marts in our area seem to be built by one of these companies.
6. The ONLY thing I don't like about the pole barn is the 2x8 PT skirtboard. If there was a good option for a concrete 2x8, I would have done that. This may be a susceptible piece of the framing.
7. I've been in our barn with 60+ mph winds and driving rain. The wide open space is incredibly loud, yes, but the thing does not bow or rack or squeak or shake or shudder. The house makes a whole lot more noise.
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=287155&highlight=garage+gym+jives
We had regular girts AND bookshelf girts. No additional framing necessary for insulation and interior finishing. The Amish who put it up did the bookshelf girts in no time, with not much extra cost. There is OSB siding, housewrap, and steel siding. Could have gone with Hardieplank, vinyl -- or anything else.
So, why pole barn?
1. $10-12K cheaper, which was the cost quote for a full foundation. What a waste; no reason for a full foundation, when 10,000 lb PSI (IIRC) concrete columns (Permacolumns) at each pole, and a couple of bags of Redi-mix per hole, will do the job.
2. I have open vaulted ceilings to 22' with scissor trusses. Gable walls are one piece, 28' high. Possible with stick framing, but it is done in pieces, requires more engineering, and more bracing. Pole framing is a much better option.
3. Site prep required 240 tons of compacted gravel to level the pad. Some of the pole holes needed to get down beyond the 48" code to get to undisturbed soil. Really no more cost for an additional 6 inches of hole depth, but that would have cost a bundle with a standard footer and frost wall.
4. In my old home the CMU basement walls and the CMU crawl space walls were crumbling when we bought the house when it was 40 years old. Mortar failing, parging falling off, wall bowing, individual blocks crumbling. We spent a lot of money fixing the foundation. I reckon that could happen with the permacolumns, but I'm sure 40 years is well in the future.
5. Pole style buildings have been around for thousands of years. The above ground structure, while not on par with a timber-framed home, has similar characteristics of relying on stout timbers (or engineered posts). Stick framed homes were an outcome of the industrial revolution that made nails and milled lumber cheap, and lots of cheap labor. They were, and continue to be, the fastest way to slap together a building. There is nothing special about a stick-built building.
6. Our house, which we had built, is stick built on a footer/frost wall. Water table too high for a basement. The main reason we went with a stick built was future ability to sell. We thought about Morton and in our region, Fingerlakes Construction. Most of the gas station mini-marts in our area seem to be built by one of these companies.
6. The ONLY thing I don't like about the pole barn is the 2x8 PT skirtboard. If there was a good option for a concrete 2x8, I would have done that. This may be a susceptible piece of the framing.
7. I've been in our barn with 60+ mph winds and driving rain. The wide open space is incredibly loud, yes, but the thing does not bow or rack or squeak or shake or shudder. The house makes a whole lot more noise.
Paul_VR6
Well-known member
hemifalcon
Well-known member
Love my building.. the builders built the shell fast and it was easy to build anyway you wanted inside..
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Man Cave
Well-known member
My standard pole building was built in 1991. 30x50 x 10 ft ceiling. I had it insulated with the white vinyl backed type insulation. I heat it with 125,000 BTU forced air propane. No leaks, no regrets except the ceiling height which is my fault. I didn't know I was going to want a lift later in life. I had a couple of scissor trusses built and scabbed into the existing trusses over my two post lift so I can raise a car. Complete building with one walk door and one overhead door with 6" floor cost 11,700 in 1991 dollars.
Diesel Dan
Well-known member
Building inspector leaned towards stick built for this reason. However I'm building a shop/house. Since the start of mine the county has stopped issuing building permits for "non-standard" dwellings like a "shouse" unless it has engineered prints showing the framing will handle residential wind load deflection calculations. A traditional pole barn will not.
Another thing he pointed out was by the time you buy all the lumber for the wall girts/book shelves/posts are you really saving any materials over stick framing?
First time I ever seen an article on perma-columns was 20+yrs ago. IIRC, it was Saginaw County (MI) fairgrounds. They had to replace ALL the post bottoms on a very large riding arena that wasn't too old.
lakeroadster
Well-known member
A traditional pole barn? What is that?
Fact is the steel siding on the roof and walls act as a diaphragm to give the structural rigidity needed to stand up to environmental conditions.
Attachments
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rburke65
Well-known member
Well I put up a 3'x40' x8' back in 1982 or so. I was happy to get it for some storage. No windows and an 10'x8' sliding door....$5k I think. Lucky to have it. Still standing. Great for storage. If you have plans on finishing insides, go stick.
MrSurly
Well-known member
I wonder about that term and this claim that the building won’t stand. I’m sure there are thousands standing to refute that biased statement.
My building was sketched as a “typical” post frame,then drawn by an engineer to meet 130mph wind loads. The city here is not big on post frame and will try to steer you to ‘more traditional’ methods but in the end, they will approve as long as you provide engineer stamped drawings. The city doesn’t claim to analyze the design or do any calcs; they simply want an engineer to let them out of the loop.
My engineer (a P.E. Specializing in Post frame) did add a bit of beef to the basic design. I will let y’all know if it blows away.
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My building was sketched as a “typical” post frame,then drawn by an engineer to meet 130mph wind loads. The city here is not big on post frame and will try to steer you to ‘more traditional’ methods but in the end, they will approve as long as you provide engineer stamped drawings. The city doesn’t claim to analyze the design or do any calcs; they simply want an engineer to let them out of the loop.
My engineer (a P.E. Specializing in Post frame) did add a bit of beef to the basic design. I will let y’all know if it blows away.
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LittleRedC5
Active member
I’m a little late to this thread, but I wanted to see if you (madmaxnj) ended up building your pole barn and if you used shirk. I just got approval on my building last week and have called most of the builders in the lancaster area. Shirk was not only the most affordable, but very responsive. I went out to their office to pick up some sample colors and they changed the plans for me several times before I ever even gave them a dime. I have them coming out to my build site this week to see what prep is required. I was curious if anyone could suggest someone in South NJ for site prep and floor once the building is up.