Anyone decided against radiant then regretted it?

[deeno]

I'm finalizing plans for a 48x64 pole building garage and I'm debating whether or not to go radiant in the floor. Location is just south west of St. Louis, MO so winters are typically mild with a few days of bitter cold occasionally. LP gas will be used for heat and the building will be insulated.

My concerns are not only installation costs, but the ongoing operating costs to heat a slab floor this size just to maintain about 45°f in the shop when not in use and 60-65°f when occupied. Alternatively, I would install a couple suspended unit heaters.

I know radiant provides uniform and even heat without drafts, but it comes at a steeper installation price and long term maintenance of a pump a boiler/water heater and the tubing/manifolds as well. Are there other perks to it that I'm just not seeing?

Anyone ever have problems with radiant? like freezing or other breaks in the tubing?

Thank you in advance for any help.
Dean

 

[Jackfre]

I'm in the business, can buy at wholesale and better can do all the install myself and chose not to install radiant in the new shop. It is great heat but I just don't feel it was worth the hassle or expense. My shop is perfectly comfortable without it at much less cost.

 

[mikeburris]

Not the answer to the question you are asking, however I had the same thoughts when building my shop. I decided against the high cost, and have not regretted it. I think there have only been 10 days in the 2 years that I would have really cared, living 4 hours south of you.

 

[CNGsaves]

OP . . . . really depends on HOW you plan on using that big 48'x64' shop.

If it's actively used as WORKING shop every day all winter long, then by all means go with the radiant floor as you'll never have that kind of comfortable heat from overhead heater.

However, if shop is more storage or rarely used, then go with overhead heater. You could maintain minimal heat when not used, then crank up when needed.

Do you have natural gas service to the property ??

 

[theoldwizard1]

OP . . . . really depends on HOW you plan on using that big 48'x64' shop.

If it's actively used as WORKING shop every day all winter long, then by all means go with the radiant floor as you'll never have that kind of comfortable heat from overhead heater.

However, if shop is more storage or rarely used, then go with overhead heater. You could maintain minimal heat when not used, then crank up when needed.

Good summary !

Which ever way you go, lay down vapor barrier and 2" of rigid foam insulation before you pour your floor !

 

[joes169]

I have regrets, but from a little different angle. I actually installed infloor in ~60% of my shop when I replaced part of the floor. I ran it for the first winter, and like many here that don't spend the whole dy in their shop, never appreciated a floor that sat at 50-55 degrees to keep the air at 45 degrees. I realize now that the system had it's flaws due to the installation, and most don't, but it was still more expensive to run on a yearly basis than the hot air.

I wish I could get the money back for most of the foam, all of the tubing, mini-boiler, pump, labor, etc... It would equate to 5+ years of propane to keep the Modine running........

 

[deeno]

OP . . . . really depends on HOW you plan on using that big 48'x64' shop.

If it's actively used as WORKING shop every day all winter long, then by all means go with the radiant floor as you'll never have that kind of comfortable heat from overhead heater.

However, if shop is more storage or rarely used, then go with overhead heater. You could maintain minimal heat when not used, then crank up when needed.

Do you have natural gas service to the property ??

Thank you for the reply CNGsaves. It will be storage for the most part not daily fab work. One end will store a horse trailer and the tractor, the rest will be a car or two and some bikes with which I will tinker.

No natural gas, we're going with a large LP tank for the garage and the house.

From the replies it's looking like unit heaters will be fine.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

Really large building. What will you use it for.

I didn't realize having the floor heated would make such a difference.

 

[slickgt1]

When I tiles my floor in my garage, I should have installed the electric mat type of heat under them. I sort of "cheap-ed" out. The mats cost nearly nothing, and my cost would be the electric bill. But I would have been able to use it on demand, and get my garage up to a warmer temp. I feel it in my feet after working in there all day. Sorta *****. I wear a second pair of socks when I need to be in there below 40F outside temp.

 

[deeno]

Good summary !

Which ever way you go, lay down vapor barrier and 2" of rigid foam insulation before you pour your floor !

Yeah, I was planning on it. Just seems like a good idea.

 

[deeno]

Really large building. What will you use it for.

I didn't realize having the floor heated would make such a difference.

A third to half the building will be used to store farm equipment: 58hp tractor, zero-turn mower, Polaris Ranger, 26' gooseneck horse trailer w/the F350 that pulls it, etc.. The rest of it will be a workshop for cars, bikes or whatever. I considered just building a separate building with a gravel floor for the farm items, but it seemed like a hassle by the time I figured in building another driveway, running electricity, etc. I just went bigger to have a little more room for everything in one building.

48x64 doesn't seem big once you start putting things in them. I looked at a buddy's recently built 40x60 before deciding to stretch my plans a little bit.

 

[TK-421]

With what you're planning on using it for, I don't think the costs/hassle outweighs the benefits. I think you'd be better off putting that money aside and using it to pay the propane bill.

 

[Showkey]

When I tiles my floor in my garage, I should have installed the electric mat type of heat under them. I sort of "cheap-ed" out. The mats cost nearly nothing, and my cost would be the electric bill. But I would have been able to use it on demand, and get my garage up to a warmer temp. I feel it in my feet after working in there all day. Sorta *****. I wear a second pair of socks when I need to be in there below 40F outside temp.

Heating a slab with electric cables......electric cost $$$$$

 

[TK-421]

Heating a slab with electric cables......electric cost $$$$$

Heating the slab, or heating the tiles above the slab? Seems to me like it's the latter, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Chaz]

I have gas forced air. Air is filtered.. a big plus in a shop. It reacts quickly. Its reasonably cheap to install, and quick and easy to repair. My slab is insulated and never cold.

 

[finn]

I added the insulation and tubes when I built my garage but never completed the installation because we lived in another state at the time and it wasn't worth it for the limited time we were here. When I retired and moved here full time, I decided to install a hanging heater because of the faster response time, plus I was using it to supplement a wood stove.

Fast forward to last year when I bought another, larger building down the road with a boiler and radiant floors. I'm using the boiler to maintain about 42 degrees but ended up installing a propane hanging heater to get the temperature up to a comfortable working region, about 55-60 degrees.

For the type and amount of work I'm doing, the floor heat is a luxury that I'm paying dearly for.

I've considered installing antifreeze so I could shut the system down or operate it at a lower temperature, but the lower heat transfer coefficient of the antifreeze would hurt system efficiency and directionally increase operating cost.

If I had to choose only one system, I'd have to go with the hanging heater.

Warm floors are nice to work on, but a lift partially offsets that.

The heated floors also make working at lower room temperatures tolerable.

For a full-time shop go radiant, but for a few days per week, not so much.

 

[ForceFed70]

I made the decision against radiant heat for just the reason you are considering.

90% of the time I'm not in the shop and I keep the heat low. I wanted something that could quickly bring the shop up to temp and radiant wasn't going to be able to do it.

I don't regret my unit heater decision at all.

 

[Highbeam]

I put in the tubes and insulated the slab and building. The intent was to keep the building above freezing with the radiant and then use something else for occasional temp boost when I'm working. Turns out the building never freezes since I insulated so well and I use a woodstove for the boost when I'm working out there.

It was pretty cheap to install the tubes. That investment adds value to the building but I don't know if I'll ever use the tubes myself.

 

[Jess]

Like Highbeam in the post above, I am in a similar climate area but decided that I wanted the option. I put in 1600' of 1/2 hpex in a 1200 sq ft floor. I have 16' ceilings and did overinsulate the attic but don't regret that either. So far, I have not needed the floor heat but can finish it if I wanted. Pretty difficult later and not that expensive to just do the pipe. on rally cold windy days, I use a 3kw electric construction heater for half hour to warm up the work area.

 

[bizfeo]

I live in Oklahoma and just installed radiant heat in my shop. Not really a hassle but I will keep items that need constant temperature ranges from being damaged. It probably isn't for a person who uses their shop intermittently. BTW, my wife and I laid out 1500 linear feet of it in two days without too much fuss.

 

[mygarageone]

I'm in the business, can buy at wholesale and better can do all the install myself and chose not to install radiant in the new shop. It is great heat but I just don't feel it was worth the hassle or expense. My shop is perfectly comfortable without it at much less cost.

Your in California , of course you don't have the need , try living in a real cold state .
When's the last time you saw 10 degree weather for 3-4 months , other wise you may feel differently.

 

[Dhagan887]

Like Highbeam in the post above, I am in a similar climate area but decided that I wanted the option. I put in 1600' of 1/2 hpex in a 1200 sq ft floor. I have 16' ceilings and did overinsulate the attic but don't regret that either. So far, I have not needed the floor heat but can finish it if I wanted. Pretty difficult later and not that expensive to just do the pipe. on rally cold windy days, I use a 3kw electric construction heater for half hour to warm up the work area.

3kw or 30kw? 1200', 16' ceilings, and 30 minutes on a cold windy day? I'm assuming by work area you mean bathroom haha

 

[Fueler]

Overhead radiant tube heat will do the job.

 

[slickgt1]

Heating the slab, or heating the tiles above the slab? Seems to me like it's the latter, but maybe I'm wrong.

Lol this. It wouldn't be that expensive, but would be nice. Especially when I have to work on my cars, on my back or knees.

 

[REKIII]

My 40x60 is in WI, so we get cold. I used to be in HVAC and I never liked hot water heat, in floor heat, or radiant heat, I liked the responsiveness of forced air....especially when considering the fact that you have to put in a forced air system for cooling no matter what (if you choose to add cooling).

So, much to the horror of friends and family, I did not put tubes in my floor. I put down a vapor barrier, 2" thick foam 12" wide vertically around the edges, then 6" of fiber reinforced.

Then I sprayed in closed cell foam and hung the little BigMaxx heater. My shed has easily stayed at 45° and the slab is maybe 5° cooler, even when we had a week of -10°. The Bigmaxx will be upgraded to a horizontal furnace with AC setup, but really all that will do is allow the shed to come up to a working temp quicker.

I dislike a floor temp that is higher than normal, it makes my feet feel weird, our feet our designed to be cooler, the extra heat can cause joint problems and accelerate arthritis.

As for the install itself, as soon as you put the tubes in you either need a concrete pumper or it becomes a hand load with wheelbarrows, not fun and the mason always charges more.

Some people really love it, and I still get nasty hate messages from friends and family for not putting it in.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

our feet our designed to be cooler, the extra heat can cause joint problems and accelerate arthritis.

Huh. I thought it was the cold that caused the joint problems and accelerated arthritis.

 

[REKIII]

Huh. I thought it was the cold that caused the joint problems and accelerated arthritis.

Really depends on which studies and theories you agree with. Like anything.

 

[Jackfre]

Your in California , of course you don't have the need , try living in a real cold state .
When's the last time you saw 10 degree weather for 3-4 months , other wise you may feel differently.

I've been in CA for 5 yrs now. Grew up in Upstate NY and lived for 25 yrs in New England and I've been in the heating business for over 50 yrs now. I know about cold! Radiant is wonderful heat, but it is costly to install and costly to operate. I'm comfortable without it in a slab in a well insulated building and would not have put it in if I still lived back there and built my new shop back there.

The comments about how you use the building are certainly pertinent. If you are out there all the time it may be just right for you. If it is intermittent use then I would still install the Rinnai Energysavers DV's. I've had them in my houses, basement, garage and now in the new shop. Excellent control, efficiency, reliability and simple installation. Everyone goes for the hanging unit heater type but you will not get the same comfort out them that you get with a floor mounted unit blowing the heat across the floor. As well, given the fact that it is modulating the unit will do two things. 1: satisfy your comfort demand. 2: Run at the lowest possible input so you get consistent heat and air circulation with continuous operation.

Interestingly, over the years I had many customers in ME, NH & VT who would install the DV's in their radiant heated homes. Radiant is great heat...when it is cold. It is somewhat problematic in the shoulder season however when you throw a bunch of energy at the slab in the morning and by 1pm you are opening the windows to cool off. Yes, you can get around this but you are throwing more money at controls and sophistication. Folks would run the DV in the shoulder season and many would not turn on the radiant until Thanksgiving and turn it off the end of Feb.

Radiant is great if you have the resources and want to put them there. I just think there are better options for shops and I'll spend my dough on new tools

 

[kwschumm]

I had originally planned for radiant floor heat but, after the last HOT summer, I decided that A/C would be mandatory, so saved a bunch of money by going with a heat pump with electric strip heat. An old ERV that was laying around that will be installed to continuously keep fresh, filtered air coming into the shop and reduce the moisture content in the winter to minimize rust.

 

[macgyver]

I have radiant heat in my shop floor. We have a full time repair shop in the mountains where it does get cold. Winters here can get as cold a -18. A couple of things. Plan well!! We didn't build the shop so when installing lifts in the building we drilled through a line, DOH! We had to cap off that area in the utility room where all the lines come up out of the floor. Luckily the whole shop was divided into sections! So now we use 3 of the 4 sections. It does a pretty good job of keeping the shop warm. However I have learned a few things along the way. In the winter keep the doors closed! Also we let it run 24/7 in the winter (7500 feet in the mountains). I tried turning off and on everyday, that wasn't efficient. Also not efficient is setting it for more than 60. Over the 10 years I have been using the system, 55 seems to be the sweet spot for keeping the shop comfy and the monthly gas bill happy. Any higher than 60 and the gas bill goes way up and doesn't change the temp much! So overall I like the system and would do it again. 55 is way comfortable in the winter and it is nice to work in.

 

[INTMD8]

I didn't have a choice as the garage/concrete was already there. Went with a package unit (gas heat and also a/c) and spray foam insulation.

I keep the thermostat at 62, it's perfect in there. Floors feel warm and there is no insulation under the slab.

Recovers in minutes after the door has been open. Gas bill has been around $75 a month, that includes heating the house.

 

[86turbodsl]

My 40x60 is in WI, so we get cold. I used to be in HVAC and I never liked hot water heat, in floor heat, or radiant heat, I liked the responsiveness of forced air....especially when considering the fact that you have to put in a forced air system for cooling no matter what (if you choose to add cooling).

So, much to the horror of friends and family, I did not put tubes in my floor. I put down a vapor barrier, 2" thick foam 12" wide vertically around the edges, then 6" of fiber reinforced.

Then I sprayed in closed cell foam and hung the little BigMaxx heater. My shed has easily stayed at 45° and the slab is maybe 5° cooler, even when we had a week of -10°. The Bigmaxx will be upgraded to a horizontal furnace with AC setup, but really all that will do is allow the shed to come up to a working temp quicker.

I dislike a floor temp that is higher than normal, it makes my feet feel weird, our feet our designed to be cooler, the extra heat can cause joint problems and accelerate arthritis.

As for the install itself, as soon as you put the tubes in you either need a concrete pumper or it becomes a hand load with wheelbarrows, not fun and the mason always charges more.

Some people really love it, and I still get nasty hate messages from friends and family for not putting it in.

I don't agree with this assessment. I put tubing in my floor, and we did not need any special handling of the mud. Our bodies are very effectively heated with warm feet. I don't think you can get better heat than this, and i'm not saying it because i have it, but because i've got experience with all the major heating types.

And lastly, if you have any big cast iron in your shop, you will benefit greatly from an insulated space and consistent temps, that don't cause sweating and rust on your tools!

 

[Spudland_Dave]

Good summary !

Which ever way you go, lay down vapor barrier and 2" of rigid foam insulation before you pour your floor !

Nope...I would personally suggest AGAINST The foam insulation under the slab. Vapor Barrier - Absolutely.

The Theory I subscribe to (based on years of being here on earth and most recently a real world example CONFIRMING my theory) is that UNLESS you plan on radiant, under slab insulation is just peeling cash out of your wallet.

I argue that a slab without insulation (Such as mine and many others I know of) in an INSULATED Shop, actually warm the shop using the earth's natural heat. This year was the first year with heat in my shop, prior to that, the shop would naturally stay in the 38-42 degree range (Here in Maine, where its cold)... My Modine heater is set to 40 and it rarely runs.
a family member on the other hand built a similar sized shop, similar construction and wall/ceiling insulation BUT...INSULATED his slab and without heat, it was noticeably colder in there. While mine wont freeze without heat, his did go below freezing before he got heat installed.

I believe my theory is sound when it comes to shops and buildings which are kept at a relatively lower temp and you only raise it up when needed. IF you wanted to maintain 70 degrees in your shop 24/7-365, then I'd say without a doubt go with Radiant and Sub-Slab insulation.

To the OP..I did not go radiant, no regrets at all. Love my modine.

 

[Voi]

I know radiant provides uniform and even heat without drafts, but it comes at a steeper installation price and long term maintenance of a pump a boiler/water heater and the tubing/manifolds as well. Are there other perks to it that I'm just not seeing?

Anyone ever have problems with radiant?

Four of my friends have radiant in their shops. In the one I've spent a lot of time in I have to admit that when you go in there on a cold morning it is remarkably comfortable without feeling too warm. It is also spooky quiet but I mean that in a good way.

I think it does wonders to make the areas around leaky overhead doors comfortable.

When you go up in the loft it actually gets cooler, which I think is great unless you need the heat up there.

I don't particularly care for the warm floor when crawling around underneath a piece of machinery replacing a part. For me it's too much when you have both the slab and huge chunk of steel radiating heat at you. But I suppose it's better than the alternative.

One friend uses his shop to house his daily drivers and he loves it for melting show and evaporating the melt off.

We get a lot of warm days and cool nights here throughout our winter. It's sunny and nearly 60* here now and low was 17* last night. I can guarantee you all four shops would feel a bit miserable to me right now with that slab still radiating heat.

If I stopped by one friend's shop right now I'm pretty sure at least one overhead door would be half open and it would still feel a bit hot in there. To be fair they're not the owners and I don't think their system was designed very well and I think suspect their slab runs hot.

Still, if I were building a shop in my climate I'd put insulation with pex under the slab for sure. Hooking it up to a gas boiler would depend on budget and how much I was planning on using it. But you only get one chance to install insulation and pex under a slab.

By the way, one friend's barn is 45x48. Only 8' sidewalls but open trusses with rigid foam between the upper chords. Fiberglass in the walls. I can't remember but he has three of four overhead doors on one eave.

Electric boiler and he heats to the low 60s all winter for $550.

 

[bzinsky]

Electric boiler and he heats to the low 60s all winter for $550.

It would cost roughly the same amount putting hair dryers in there.

Taking "comfort" out of the equation, the entire efficiency advantage to using radiant heat comes from the fact that you have more heating surface area, it allows you to keep water temperature low. Low water temperature absorbs more heat when it passes through whatever fuel you may be burning, thus less of your precious heat was expelled out of the exhaust. An electric boiler has no exhaust, it uses electrical resistance to create heat. All electric resistance heat provides the same amount of heat for every watt it consumes, whether its a complex radiant heat setup or a walmart hair dryer.

 

[bzinsky]

Radiant heat = most comfortable and cheapest way to maintain a temperature

If you only need heat on demand, like most people do with their garage, its a huge waste of money as it will cost more to operate and install.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

A third to half the building will be used to store farm equipment: 58hp tractor, zero-turn mower, Polaris Ranger, 26' gooseneck horse trailer w/the F350 that pulls it, etc.. The rest of it will be a workshop for cars, bikes or whatever. I considered just building a separate building with a gravel floor for the farm items, but it seemed like a hassle by the time I figured in building another driveway, running electricity, etc. I just went bigger to have a little more room for everything in one building.

48x64 doesn't seem big once you start putting things in them. I looked at a buddy's recently built 40x60 before deciding to stretch my plans a little bit.

Why don't you separate the building into a warm part and cold storage part. If you leave the cold storage part with a gravel floor, you always dig out the gravel, put in crushed rock, put the poly in, and pour concrete floor. Unless you can handle the extra cost of a full concrete floor and insulation.

 

[mygarageone]

Well I am one of those who frost bit my feet as a kid , no matter how well a garage is heated with scorched air , my feet always get cold. So my shop has radiant heating 24/7
I keep it at 55 and can work out there in a T shirts , my tools never rust , no dust blowing around, floor drys well after a car wash , and quick recovery after the garage door is open.
My gloves / gloves get wet , set them on the floor and there dry ( not shrivel up ) the next day. The temp is great to about 7 feet and it cools of , where scorched air all goes to the ceiling , you call that effecting ? Ceiling fans are a must with scorched air but air counter productive with radiant. There there electrical saving , boilers and pumps don't need the amount of running and starting amps a furnace does. Easy to zone ,unlike forced air and if you really want to shut it off , put some glycol in it . If you put your tubing in on 9 " centers , when you turn it on heat recovery in no time , like maybe 24 hrs . Everyone thinks scorched air recovers faster ,no it doesn't . It heats the air , the building and everything in it takes for ever to get up to temp.
Example , we had to replace the furnaces in a supermarket , there heat was down for 5 days , the building dropped only 3 degree with all the mass in there. It took exactly 4 days to bring the Thermostat back to it's original setting Other than the A/C issue , none of my. Client ever said they wish they did forced air rather than radiant.

 

[mygarageone]

Well I am one of those who frost bit my feet as a kid , no matter how well a garage is heated with scorched air , my feet always get cold. So my shop has radiant heating 24/7
I keep it at 55 and can work out there in a T shirts , my tools never rust , no dust blowing around, floor drys well after a car wash , and quick recovery after the garage door is open.
My gloves / boots get wet , set them on the floor and there dry ( not shrivel up ) the next day. The temp is great to about 7 feet and it cools of , where scorched air all goes to the ceiling , you call that effecent ? Ceiling fans are a must with scorched air but are counter productive with radiant. Then there's electrical saving , boilers and pumps don't need the amount of running and starting amps a furnace does. Easy to zone ,unlike forced air and if you really want to shut it off , put some glycol in it . If you put your tubing in on 9 " centers , when you turn it on heat recovery in no time , like maybe 24 hrs . Everyone thinks scorched air recovers faster ,no it doesn't . It heats the air , the building and everything in it takes for ever to get up to temp.
Example , we had to replace the furnaces in a supermarket , there heat was down for 5 days , the building dropped only 3 degree with all the mass in there. It took exactly 4 days to bring the Thermostat back to it's original setting Other than the A/C issue , none of my. Clients ever said they wish they did forced air rather than radiant.

 

[4cyclic]

Nope...I would personally suggest AGAINST The foam insulation under the slab. Vapor Barrier - Absolutely.

The Theory I subscribe to (based on years of being here on earth and most recently a real world example CONFIRMING my theory) is that UNLESS you plan on radiant, under slab insulation is just peeling cash out of your wallet.

I argue that a slab without insulation (Such as mine and many others I know of) in an INSULATED Shop, actually warm the shop using the earth's natural heat. This year was the first year with heat in my shop, prior to that, the shop would naturally stay in the 38-42 degree range (Here in Maine, where its cold)... My Modine heater is set to 40 and it rarely runs.
a family member on the other hand built a similar sized shop, similar construction and wall/ceiling insulation BUT...INSULATED his slab and without heat, it was noticeably colder in there. While mine wont freeze without heat, his did go below freezing before he got heat installed.

I believe my theory is sound when it comes to shops and buildings which are kept at a relatively lower temp and you only raise it up when needed. IF you wanted to maintain 70 degrees in your shop 24/7-365, then I'd say without a doubt go with Radiant and Sub-Slab insulation.

To the OP..I did not go radiant, no regrets at all. Love my modine.

My barn does not freeze either with 2 inch xps foam under ther slab. Stayed at 39 deg with deep -20f for 4 day spell recently. I did put pex down before the pour and hope to use radiant heat and heat at 50 on weekdays and 55-60 on weekends. Should be not bad with 95% efficient modcon propane boiler.