Anyone ever heard of Polyaspartic topcoat?

[ChiTownTbone]

Hey all,

Long time lurker and I am finally posting. I am going to start a thread here this weekend because I am actually starting to work on my garage because, well, I finally have one.

I am looking to have my garage floors done for me because I can't do it myself for health reasons. I have received a quote, I won't put the price because most boards frown on that, for Polyspartic topcoat and the guy claims it is as tough or tougher than epoxy. Anyone ever heard of this stuff and can give me some info?

Thanks

T.

 

[thegarageguy]

Polyaspartic.....sounds like a fluke, run Forest RUN!!!

On a serious note, do a search, you'll find alot of information on the subject. Good luck

 

[RENTEDCOW]

Hello, I just a got a quote from a contractor for about $4-5/ft2 for everything. I have not decided what to do. Is your garage floor new or existing? Is the contractor going to grind the concrete to get better adhesion?

 

[Ruddy]

it looks like at least it is a real product. here is one vendor I found:
http://advacoat.com/

 

[ChiTownTbone]

I actually answered my own question with the help of good old google.

Yes, they are going to come in and grind the concrete as well as fix all the bad spots before applying this stuff in three layers. It is a combo of epoxy/polyurethane and super strong.

My garage floor is about 4 years old but the apron of mine and all my neighbors is flaking bad because of a bad mix and road salt which is one of the reason for this.

I will get my journal going, time permitting, this weekend. Stay tuned.

T.

PS. Obviously is will be in the other section though.

 

[Cruzin90]

See my post here: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60088

Polyaspartic is a step up from epoxy, but it costs more. Polyaspartics are zero VOC 100% aliphatic polyurea. (There's no epoxy in it.)

I should have some Aspart-X sometime next week, can't wait to play with it.

 

[AlphaGarage]

Wolverine has it, but we don't think it's suitable for DIY application. Don't have a lot of call for it from installers either.

It does cure very quickly though.

 

[Cruzin90]

It can be done as a DIY, but it's better to have two people.

Prep the surface, apply pigmented basecoat: mix parts A and B at 50:50, pour it on the floor in a zig-zag fashion and smooth it out, the product is self-leveling. Throw your flake or granite or quartz or whatever or nothing and let it dry. Sweep/scrap off excess flakes and and then apply the topcoat (in clear).

The isocyanate is moisture cure, so water and humidity is actually a good thing.

Interesting article here: http://www.onedayfloors.com/flooring-articles/commercial-floors/3mcolorquartz.php

 

[thegarageguy]

Very weary of Companies offering zero VOC 100% aliphatic polyurea.Correct me if I'm wrong Alpha or Wolverine, but 100% Polyurea is sold to manufacturers and then the manufacturers add their own ingredients to create their own formula and rename it Polyaspartic. From my experience, the higher the solids count the faster it cures and the harder it is to use. So for DIY systems, it has to be thinned out like crazy just to be workable to the average Joe, no? Please educate us.

 

[Cruzin90]

Polyaspartic refers to a polyurea that has a slower cure time and is moisture cure (most of the time). It has nothing to do with adding solvents/VOC's or other ingredients and renaming it, it has to do with the chemical reaction. However, there are some polyaspartics that contain maybe 1% or so solvents. Typically, polyurea resin mixes with isocyanate and dries in less than 4 seconds. You probably are already familiar with these types, they are used as spray-on truck bedliners. They are also solvent/VOC free but are not moisture cure.

A good read here: http://www.bayermaterialsciencenafta.com/processing/cas/polyaspartic/definition.html

 

[PaulR]

Seems to be the latest, greatest thing. It's what I'm leaning towards right now, if cost does not prohibit. 5 pages of Google however and no DIY kits found for this stuff.

 

[JD in DFW]

Don't have a lot of call for it from installers either.

It does cure very quickly though.

Fred are y'all price competitively for the installer maker? This stuff has come way down in price from where it was just 12 months ago and way down from what it was 2.5 yrs ago. I assume it's basic economics of more supply or addition of more manufactures of the coatings?? Some manufactures are still very proud of it and most just private label. What gets me are the Manufatures that try to get you to sign up for a lame 3 day course on how to put it down...even if you have been using it for years! I guess some manufactures will do just about anything to get more out of a contractors pocket!

Ok done with rant.

Fred, having never had any transactions with y'all I was just curious.

To the OP the stuff is great and in most cases more than enough for a garage application. Be sure the contractor is actually using it though. One Major Garage Franchise company that will remain unnamed is notorious for selling customers on a polyaspartic floor coating system only to end up putting down something else all together. Do your homework, call a few references and if possible go see a floor or two they have done. For me my previous customers are my best sales people, I can't tell you how many garages I have done that were sold by a previous customer.

Good luck with your garage floor project.
JD

 

[PaulR]

Hopefully Fred/Alphagarage and the Wolverine guy will not lobby to get me kicked off the message board here, but I've been researching for hours a day for the better part of a week and I think I'm ready to pull the trigger on the Rock Solid stuff. $300 a kit covers 250 sqft. I will need 4-5 depending on what I want to do, hopefully I can get a group buy together and save some coin.

http://www.rocksolidfloors.com/

 

[iceman536]

I have to say one thing - these floor coovering websites are just awful.

You need 25 lbs of chips to cover 250 sq ft? Apparently they are free.

Does a kit cover 250 or 275 sq ft? Big difference for me looking to do 506 sq ft.

Is the topcoat included with the kit, or sold separately as said in the FAQ section?

Rant over.

 

[Bad Idea]

Polyaspartics are good sealers, but they are very hard for one person DIY. Get good instructions from the vendor so you know the pointers on how to extend working time. If it is a moisture cured aspartic then do not install on a humid day. The sealer I work with is nice because you can leave it in the bucket to extend the pot life because their is less surface area in contact with air (moisture).

Aspartics usually have better UV and abrasion protection versus epoxy.

 

[AlphaGarage]

Fred are y'all price competitively for the installer maker? This stuff has come way down in price from where it was just 12 months ago and way down from what it was 2.5 yrs ago. I assume it's basic economics of more supply or addition of more manufactures of the coatings?? Some manufactures are still very proud of it and most just private label. What gets me are the Manufatures that try to get you to sign up for a lame 3 day course on how to put it down...even if you have been using it for years! I guess some manufactures will do just about anything to get more out of a contractors pocket!

Ok done with rant.

Fred, having never had any transactions with y'all I was just curious.

That's a pretty mild rant Not sure which parts, if any, were directed towards me, since we've never discussed dealer pricing of the polyaspartic and we've never held any type of course. But I'll see if I can find out about availability for you.

Hopefully Fred/Alphagarage and the Wolverine guy will not lobby to get me kicked off the message board here....

Dang - Is my browser hiding posts from me? We've never had anyone kicked off here - never asked for it even - and doubt it'd happen if we did. I have no connection with the operators, and have never received one communication from them, private or public.

There are quite a few board members who have completed their projects with our coatings, and some of them have posted their experiences - both good and bad. But neither Wolverine Coatings nor Alpha Garage have any influence whatsoever over the operation of this forum.

 

[PaulR]

that was a little light humor on my part.

 

[JD in DFW]

That's a pretty mild rant Not sure which parts, if any, were directed towards me, since we've never discussed dealer pricing of the polyaspartic and we've never held any type of course. But I'll see if I can find out about availability for you.

No Fred not directed at you in any way or form, sorry it came across that way. And your right we have never had any dealings, I think the freight would probably eat me up if I were to purchase coatings from y'all. But if it were tax free for Texas then maybe it would wash out.

I was referring to a couple of manufactures up north that like to send spam e-mails to contractors...what a beating. Would never and will never purchase from them.

 

[SC-Eric]

Very weary of Companies offering zero VOC 100% aliphatic polyurea.Correct me if I'm wrong Alpha or Wolverine, but 100% Polyurea is sold to manufacturers and then the manufacturers add their own ingredients to create their own formula and rename it Polyaspartic. From my experience, the higher the solids count the faster it cures and the harder it is to use. So for DIY systems, it has to be thinned out like crazy just to be workable to the average Joe, no? Please educate us.

Not exactly... but close. Yes, there are many companies that do very little of their own formulating with these products. But, what manufacturers are calling a polyaspartic and what manufacturers are calling a polyurea are different. The polyaspartic is technically a type of polyurea that adds a polyaspartic acid ester (diamine) the mix. A polyurea is basically the reaction of the "B" side of a urethane (the isocyanate containing portion) with the "B" side of an epoxy (amine). The polyaspartic is the reaction of an isocyanate with a polyaspartic acid ester containing diamine resin. People use the word polyaspartic to differentiate between a urethane (Polyol + Isocyanate) or a polyurea (Amines that do not contain polyaspartic acid + Isocyanate).

The polyaspartics are a bit difficult to use and make look good. The main benefit is the cure speed and return to service time. You will see many manufacturers saying that they are more durable but that is VERY relative to what they are comparing it to. If you are comparing it to a 'big name brand' epoxy or urethane that has a taber abrasion resistance of only about 50 then it may be more durable. However, if you're comparing against our EnduraShield 2254 than has a Taber abrasion resistance of 9mg then... it's pretty hard to beat that.

The difficulty in application is that the Polyaspartic Acid Ester system is very moisture sensitive. Too much and the stuff is curing on your roller covers... too little and you don't get the same results you want. Now, some manufacturers are trying to add oxizolidine moisture scavengers to even out the cure. We found out early in development that it's a bad idea. It turns out that these moisture scavengers promote yellowing... doh...

Polyaspartic refers to a polyurea that has a slower cure time and is moisture cure (most of the time). It has nothing to do with adding solvents/VOC's or other ingredients and renaming it, it has to do with the chemical reaction. However, there are some polyaspartics that contain maybe 1% or so solvents. Typically, polyurea resin mixes with isocyanate and dries in less than 4 seconds. You probably are already familiar with these types, they are used as spray-on truck bedliners. They are also solvent/VOC free but are not moisture cure.

Both polyureas and polyaspartics can cure in seconds. The cure speed has nothing to do with the definition. Polyaspartics can contain pretty much any concentration of solvents. We've seen formulations from 0% to 73% of solvent... so... 27% to 100% solids. You guys may remember the guy from Florida who posted on here about getting chemical asthma. He was using a 75% solids polyaspartic. His formulation from a big name company skinned on top during application since the moisture in the air made the surface react quickly. The 'skin' trapped the solvent (25% PM Acetate) which leeched out of the coating over time to give him chemical asthma.

While there are polyureas that cure in a few seconds there are also polyureas that are formulated to have long potlifes and cure times as well.

Hopefully Fred/Alphagarage and the Wolverine guy will not lobby to get me kicked off the message board here, but I've been researching for hours a day for the better part of a week and I think I'm ready to pull the trigger on the Rock Solid stuff. $300 a kit covers 250 sqft. I will need 4-5 depending on what I want to do, hopefully I can get a group buy together and save some coin.

Are you kidding me... boy have you got us wrong. When you walk up to us and punch us in the nose for no reason we don't try to get you kicked off the board... we... uhhh... well... we petition the UN to kick you off the planet. But first, we send someone to break your thumbs... then your legs... and... uh... uh... we burn your house down... ummm... and... all your friends' houses get burned down... and.... ummm.... we shoot 'em. lol...

No Fred not directed at you in any way or form, sorry it came across that way. And your right we have never had any dealings, I think the freight would probably eat me up if I were to purchase coatings from y'all. But if it were tax free for Texas then maybe it would wash out.

I was referring to a couple of manufactures up north that like to send spam e-mails to contractors...what a beating. Would never and will never purchase from them.

Awww... Fred can take it... stick it to 'em... lol...

To be honest we have not been pushing Polyaspartic (EnduraShield 4101) at all. The only time we would ever sell it is if we needed an aliphatic clear that absolutely had to be dry in a couple of hours. Otherwise, most applicators have switched to our EnduraShield 2254. Although this is a urethane it is very quick curing for the amount of potlife you get. Plus... it's pretty hard to beat for abrasion resistance. While it should not be applied too thick... that never seems to be a big problem since most people can't afford to put Polyaspartics on thick anyway.

We are probably not going to ever sell Polyaspartic to the DIY market. While I never say never... I will say... the technology would have to improve SIGNIFICANTLY.

But... my advice for the brave DIYer...

1) Make sure you are not allergic since your throat can close up and you can die. This is the best reason to work with a friend. And, while your at it... spend $40 on a good respirator and organic vapor cartridge.

2) Know your humidity, potlife, and temperature.

3) Do NOT use solvent based Polyaspartics.

4) Do NOT use PA that contains oxizolidines (promotes yellowing).

5) Watch your humidity!

6) Have LOTS of roller covers... and... don't cheap out here! Get the best non-shedding roller covers you can.

7) Watch your humidity... and... the dewpoint...

8) Don't drop sweat in the bucket... or cry... or spit...

9) Hire a professional... (threw that in for garageguy... but... seriously... consider this for Polyaspartics!)

10) Watch your humidity...

Been fun hangin' with you guys for awhile... but... gotta run...

 

[Cruzin90]

Good info, but you said, "A polyurea is basically the reaction of the "B" side of a urethane (the isocyanate containing portion) with the "B" side of an epoxy (amine)."

That's actually incorrect. A polyurea does not contain an epoxide group. Also, it's typical that the "A" side is the isocyanate (hardener) and the "B" side is the polyol resin.

 

[SC-Eric]

That's actually incorrect. A polyurea does not contain an epoxide group. Also, it's typical that the "A" side is the isocyanate (hardener) and the "B" side is the polyol resin.

First, I'm assuming that you are a resourceful person who is trying to learn. My response here is not designed to hurt your ego or boost mine. Sometimes it's hard to know what someone is trying to communicate since we don't have the advantage of non verbal cues typing on forums. I'm assuming the best of you and hope that you are giving me the same benefit of the doubt.

Whatever is the 'A' side or the 'B' side is not always the same from manufacturer to manufacturer. That is why I spelled out the chemistry... which is what matters.

If you Google Polyol A or Polyol B you will find plenty of people do it both ways. However, I would say that the largest portion of manufacturers call the Isocyanate portion the B side.

The 'B' side of an epoxy is almost always an amine (or other reactive component that does not contain epoxy)... The 'A' side of an epoxy is typically the actual epoxy resin. That is why I spelled out which side I was calling the amine.

The important thing is that a Polyurea is the reaction of an Amine and an Isocyanate... just like I said.

If you read it again you'll notice that I never said that a polyurea contained any epoxy (although I'll touch on that a little more again later)... I specifically spelled out that a polyurea is an Isocyanate and an amine. Most of the time it is a specific type of amine... a polyetheramine. These can have varying chain lengths and molecular weights.

It is also very difficult to generalize chemistry these days. Almost everything we make is some kind of hybrid. Now, although I never said that polyureas contained epoxide groups... then can. In fact, we have a new formulation that contains epoxy, Isocyanate, Acrylic Monomer, and Amine... all in one hybrid. We're not even sure what to call it yet! I guess it's an AcryliPoxyUrea.

 

[Cruzin90]

I'm always eager to learn! Also, I'm assuming were just having a friendly discussion here, so please don't think there's any aggression in my posts.

That being said, I have to say that I disagree with a few things. In the world of urethanes, the A side is isocyanate and the B side is resin. The BIG urethane manufacturers like Bayer and BASF (and most others) use that designation. I don't know of any polyurea/iso or polyurethane/iso manufacturer or retailer that switches the designation. Since a polyaspartic is a polyurea, I think you will find that the A side is iso and the B side is resin. Now, epoxy might be different, I'm not as familiar with epoxy products.

An amine is a broad term of a type of compound. I don't know how many amines are out there but there could be hundreds of thousands or maybe millions. One type of amine is an epoxide group. Polyurea contains an amine group, but it's not an epoxide group. I mentioned this previously because I thought those reading might associate polyurea and epoxy as actually being the same, but they are not. There is no epoxy amine ("epoxide group") in polyurea. That's why I responded to your post: "A polyurea is basically the reaction of the "B" side of a urethane (the isocyanate containing portion) with the "B" side of an epoxy (amine)."

 

[SC-Eric]

Yes... I'm assuming a friendly conversation... that is why I pre-qualified my comments. I'm not interested in any drama. I don't mind helping someone to learn if they have that desire. Sometimes ego can get in the way of productive conversations.

About BASF... I worked for BASF... in product development for 4 years... I've formulated urethane products for them. BASF makes both finished goods (formulated coatings) and raw materials for coatings. They are the largest chemical company in the world and paid for most of my house!

Bayer only makes raw materials for coatings companies to turn in to coating products.

I left you some examples of what you could Google about the A and B side... try what i suggested... you will see that plenty of coatings manufacturers do it both ways. You see, raw material suppliers do not dictate for us (Coatings Manufacturers) which is side A or B. We make those decisions for ourselves. So, some companies do it one way and some another way. If you're an epoxy coatings manufacturer and you start making polyureas... do you call the amine side part B like you do with epoxies? If you're a polyurethane manufactuer who has been used to calling the Iso Part b then you're likely to do the same for polyurea. So... some do it one way and some another.

Here is another example of a big company that shows the Iso being part B:
PPG Pithane Ultra

Component B MSDS: http://setonresourcecenter.com/MSDS_Hazcom/Docs/wcd00033/wcd0339a.htm

The ISO is in Part B... you'll notice from their TDS that all of their 'A' components are colored and DO NOT contain Isocyanate: http://corporateportal.ppg.com/NR/rdonlyres/2E32B130-8678-43F0-BD10-E6DAB749EFBE/0/pittthaneultra.pdf

Here is another example from a big manufacturer:
Devthane 379 Part B: http://www.emedco.info/rtk/common/wcd00024/wcd0240e.htm

Where you are going wrong is here:

An amine is a broad term of a type of compound. I don't know how many amines are out there but there could be hundreds of thousands or maybe millions. One type of amine is an epoxide group.

Yes, there are MANY types of amines. However, an epoxide group is NOT an amine... they are not even similar.
Basic Epoxide groups are based on an Oxygen molecule.
Basic amine groups are based on Nitrogen.

These two molecules are completely different and not even in the same class. An epoxide is not an amine and an amine is not an epoxide. It's easy and west... north and south... Politician and Honest Man...

Just out of curiosity, you seem to be stating things with some certainty, what is your background? Your angle almost makes me think that you are dealing with foams.

 

[PaulR]

I talked to a local guy in the concrete floor business yesterday, does work for a huge outfit, Tennent, also has his own business. He Mirrored a lot of what alpha and wolverine said about the polyaspartics. He said 100% solids epoxy can be just as strong as the polyaspartics. Then again everwhere you search for floors every single company out there touts "100% solids epoxy" so it seems. So.....either they're all really good/strong products (and identical products) with a different price, or they're all lying.
I'm going to send that guy this link, maybe he'll have time to lurk.

 

[AlphaGarage]

Then again everwhere you search for floors every single company out there touts "100% solids epoxy" so it seems. So.....either they're all really good/strong products (and identical products) with a different price, or they're all lying.

There are more than 2 options here...

The % of solids is just one of many variables in the epoxy formulation. It's like car engines - ther are a lot of motors that we can classify as being a "V8", but beyond the cylinder count there and hundreds of other details that make one V8 different from all the others. Same with epoxies.

Wolverine alone has hundreds of different epoxies in their catalog.

And although it's generally true that a 100% solids epoxy is going to out perform one that's less than 100% solids - even there you'll find exceptions.

So yes, there are plenty of "100% solids" epoxies - but no way are they all the same, not even close.

 

[03TorchedMach1]

I spoke with a guy yesterday that installs polyaspartic floorings who did an estimate for me. He explained to me that the polyaspartic actually soaks into the concrete like a stain would so that it is duarable and won't flake like some epoxies do. Also, you wont see hot tire marks on the concrete. It is a little expensive but it sounds like it's worth it. As soon as I get the money together and the fiance on board with the project, I'm gonna have him come do it.

 

[The Patch]

One type of amine is an epoxide group.

No! An epoxide is not an amine!

 

[Cruzin90]

Noted, thank you!

Allow me to rephrase: Some epoxies are amine cured. Urethanes (polyurea) contain an amine, but there is no epoxide group.

Changing the subject back to A side is iso, B side is resin. All of the major equipment manfacturers such as Graco, Gama, etc. tag the A side as iso and the B side as resin.

 

[Delvalcoatings]

We apply polyaspartic coatings in residential and commercial projects. We stopped using epoxies several years back as, in our experience, the polyaspartics are clearly superior (tougher, faster return to service, etc.). The manufacturers of polyaspartics do not sell their products to the DIY market as the product must be applied in a specific process and the working time can be only 15 to 30 minutes.

 

[mluckett4410]

I am a paint chemist and I have been developing some specialty polyaspartic coatings for Counter tops. Background urethane is a polyol ( OH group like HOH- water) Reacated with isocyanate (NCO). Poly Urea very fast cure 25 seconds This is the reaction of a PRIMARY Amine (NH) with an isocyanate. Very tough flexible but poor UV light resistance, like epoxy it will chalk in sunlight. Polyaspartic is the reaction of a SECONDARY Amine with an isocyanate. Good weathering, UV light resistance, good chemical, tough abrasion resistance. Reasonable working time 20-40 min. but fast cure. walkable 90 minutes. Return to service after 18-24 hrs. Your epoxy can't do that. All of these coating have their advantages and disadvantages. Polyasparrtics are a neat items if done right. Thicker films then polyurethanes. 7-10 mils per coat Near 100% solids possible. It can be your finish coat over top of other material if you want.

 

[Armorpoxy]

We regularly sell our Polyaspartic Ultrafast topcoat. It's a great product but very short working time and more expensive than our regular 2 part topcoat, so unless you have a time issue we don't recommend novice novice installers apply it unless the situation calls for it.

Another main advantage is that our polyaspartic can be used outdoors since it is UV stable and won't yellow or chalk like all epoxies can.

 

[Terrafuse-Carski]

We manufacture Polyaspartics right here in Calgary as well as some of the most versatile Concrete Structural repair mortars. Check out our website www.terrafuse.ca

Cheers!

 

[Terrafuse-Carski]

Don't think that covering your epoxy base coat with a Polyaspartic top coat will protect the epoxy!! Polyaspartic allows the UV light to pass through, thus not trapping it and having it breakdown the chemistry. This application will still result in yellowing in the epoxy base coat that can be seen even with a 100% chip broadcast. Use polyaspartics for both top and base coat and you will never have to worry about yellowing, becoming brittle and material breakdown!

www.terrafuse.ca