Anyone have solar?

[03ranger]

I do own, not lease a 9.1 KW solar system that utilizes 36 panels at 245 watts each. My ROI is at approximately 9 years using my calculations. Use the Solar companies calculations as a starting point and not an end point.

Questions:
1. The US government allows a 30% tax credit. Is your tax bill high enough that you can utilize the tax credit? If not then you are leaving money on the table.

2. What is the cost per KW when purchasing a system? The cost per KW should be between $2 to $3 dollars per KW.

3. What is the length of the ROI?

One thing that no one has mentioned: Solar panel efficiently drops when the temp goes above 90 degrees. When the outside temperature is below 90 degrees my system outputs about 35 KW per day in spring and fall. During the summer here in Arizona my system drops to about 17 KW per day due to high temperatures, no solar salesman ever mentioned this.

Yes, I would put solar in again, the numbers worked for me. The power company has net metering and I do produce more power over the course of a year then I use. But look at the financial side very closely; Solar does not pay off for everyone.

 

[MikeinNorthWales]

Everybody realizes that the rebates, credits, and incentives are just various levels of government giving you a little of everyone else's money, right? The government has no money of it's own to give away because it doesn't produce anything. It collects fees, taxes, fines, etc. to "fund" itself. Itself is whatever it feels is appropriate. At some point, when they have given away all that they are comfortable giving, they will find a way to take more of our money in the form of more taxes (sound familiar?), fees, and fines.

Does anyone throw that number into the ROI calculations? It's the same as the power companies raising rates on the smaller amount of power you use after you install a system. You don't see it coming, but it's right there, off in the distance.

 

[Git]

...When the outside temperature is below 90 degrees my system outputs about 35 KW per day in spring and fall. During the summer here in Arizona my system drops to about 17 KW per day due to high temperatures, no solar salesman ever mentioned this.

I am curious - what type of inverters are you using? (I am going to guess String or it sounds like something is wrong with your system)

In S Cal we are in a heat wave right now. On the 10th it was 91 degrees (produced 81 kWh) - yesterday it was 105 (slightly lower at 79.5kWh).

Green line is AC Energy produced, red line is temps

 

[R6 Racer]

I'm looking into it now & would like to have it up & running this year (as opposed to next spring)
I use between $50 & $150 worth of electricity monthly, depending on what I'm doing that month.
Unfortunately my bills are between $150 & $350 monthly.
I get charged more to have the electricity delivered than I do for the electricity I use! On top of that if I use absolutely zero electricity I still get a bill for $50 plus taxes every month. They charge anyone hooked up to the grid $50 every month for the privilege of being connected.

Ontario has the highest hydro rates in all of Canada double that of most of the other provinces.
1000kwh in a month translates to apx $300

If all I had to pay for was electricity, solar would not be such an easy decision. BUT! with the insatiable greed & arrogance these mega corporations have now a days its a no brainer when considering severing any & all relationships with them.

My figuring gives me a 5 year payback on a system that should easily last twice that long!
I did include increasing the electricity rates based on the same scale as they have increased over the last 10 years & I am doing the install myself.

PS- In the last 10 years rates here have over doubled. Factoring that in makes a huge difference in ROI.

Good luck & let us know what you decide to do.

Steve

 

[tyme2par4]

Questions:
1. The US government allows a 30% tax credit. Is your tax bill high enough that you can utilize the tax credit? If not then you are leaving money on the table.

The credit is actually structured so that you can spread it out over multiple years. If you don't owe enough the first year, you roll over the rest to next year.

 

[BigWil]

I'm looking into it now & would like to have it up & running this year (as opposed to next spring)
I use between $50 & $150 worth of electricity monthly, depending on what I'm doing that month.
Unfortunately my bills are between $150 & $350 monthly.
I get charged more to have the electricity delivered than I do for the electricity I use! On top of that if I use absolutely zero electricity I still get a bill for $50 plus taxes every month. They charge anyone hooked up to the grid $50 every month for the privilege of being connected.

Ontario has the highest hydro rates in all of Canada double that of most of the other provinces.
1000kwh in a month translates to apx $300

If all I had to pay for was electricity, solar would not be such an easy decision. BUT! with the insatiable greed & arrogance these mega corporations have now a days its a no brainer when considering severing any & all relationships with them.

My figuring gives me a 5 year payback on a system that should easily last twice that long!
I did include increasing the electricity rates based on the same scale as they have increased over the last 10 years & I am doing the install myself.

PS- In the last 10 years rates here have over doubled. Factoring that in makes a huge difference in ROI.

Good luck & let us know what you decide to do.

Steve

Solar isn't viable on my property now, but if I end up moving, I'm actually considering going off the grid with solar, battery bank and backup genny just to stop paying the crooks at Hydro One. The price of electricity is ridiculous, and the fact that we pay delivery charges and debt retirement fees is absurd. I wish I could have my boss pay me for the work I do, and add in a debt retirement charge to pay for my house.

 

[Tscott]

Everybody realizes that the rebates, credits, and incentives are just various levels of government giving you a little of everyone else's money, right? The government has no money of it's own to give away because it doesn't produce anything. It collects fees, taxes, fines, etc. to "fund" itself. Itself is whatever it feels is appropriate. At some point, when they have given away all that they are comfortable giving, they will find a way to take more of our money in the form of more taxes (sound familiar?), fees, and fines.

Does anyone throw that number into the ROI calculations? It's the same as the power companies raising rates on the smaller amount of power you use after you install a system. You don't see it coming, but it's right there, off in the distance.

You're absolutely right and I agree that the government should not be picking winners in a market, but at the same time if I can get some of my tax dollars back via these programs then I'm all for it. I pay plenty in taxes and I'll take any deduction I can get to lower the bill.

Tom


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tyme2par4]

You're absolutely right and I agree that the government should not be picking winners in a market, but at the same time if I can get some of my tax dollars back via these programs then I'm all for it. I pay plenty in taxes and I'll take any deduction I can get to lower the bill.

Tom

The government isn't picking winners. At best, they're leveling the playing field.
For 1, the credits apply to a variety of technologies.
Second, Fossil fuels receive far more subsidies than renewables do.

 

[CJ7VFR]

I wouldn't consider any roof mounted system. Trouble waiting to happen.

Tommy

My neighbor down the street from me would agree with you 100 percent!

He was bragging to some of us one day this past spring about his new solar installation that he was going to have done, and how it was going to save him so much money, and that he got it at really reduced cost, and that here in New Jersey they were going to be giving him some really great incentives to go solar.

A few weeks later there are guys crawling all over his roof installing the panels and doing it really fast. I thought it looked like it was going too fast, but said neighbor was bragging and bragging about how he was going to saves tons of money.

Fast forward a few months and I see this guys house with the roof ripped off of it and a bunch of different guys crawling all over the place.

I saw my neighbor and asked what was going on? He said that the "installation guys" were just basically a bunch of hired day workers and they really had no idea how to install the panels correctly.

Apparently they just drilled holes for the solar brackets RIGHT THRU THE ROOF! Yep, that's right. They just drilled holes from the outside of his roof, down thru the shingles, the tar paper and the plywood, making hundreds of holes into his attic!

The "installation guys" then had one guy on the outside of the roof put the bolts thru the brackets and then one guy in the attic put the nuts on the bolts and tightened up the nuts to hold the brackets.

This perfect installation caused tens of thousands of dollars in damage to the interior of my neighbors house when it rained, not to mention the fact that he needed a new roof.

And the best part? The "solar company" says they are not responsible, it was the fault of the people they sub-contracted the work out to, so go sue them. And the sub-contract people say it's not our fault because the "solar company" never told them the proper way to install the brackets, so go sue the "solar company".

My neighbor has been in so many court battles over this it is not even funny. In the end he will have paid more for to the lawyers than any money he would have possibly saved going "solar".

I told him to just turn his air conditioning up to 78 degrees to save some money when he first told me about going "solar".

I wonder if he wishes he had done that now....

Jim

 

[walrus]

My neighbor down the street from me would agree with you 100 percent!

He was bragging to some of us one day this past spring about his new solar installation that he was going to have done, and how it was going to save him so much money, and that he got it at really reduced cost, and that here in New Jersey they were going to be giving him some really great incentives to go solar.

A few weeks later there are guys crawling all over his roof installing the panels and doing it really fast. I thought it looked like it was going too fast, but said neighbor was bragging and bragging about how he was going to saves tons of money.

Fast forward a few months and I see this guys house with the roof ripped off of it and a bunch of different guys crawling all over the place.

I saw my neighbor and asked what was going on? He said that the "installation guys" were just basically a bunch of hired day workers and they really had no idea how to install the panels correctly.

Apparently they just drilled holes for the solar brackets RIGHT THRU THE ROOF! Yep, that's right. They just drilled holes from the outside of his roof, down thru the shingles, the tar paper and the plywood, making hundreds of holes into his attic!

The "installation guys" then had one guy on the outside of the roof put the bolts thru the brackets and then one guy in the attic put the nuts on the bolts and tightened up the nuts to hold the brackets.

This perfect installation caused tens of thousands of dollars in damage to the interior of my neighbors house when it rained, not to mention the fact that he needed a new roof.

And the best part? The "solar company" says they are not responsible, it was the fault of the people they sub-contracted the work out to, so go sue them. And the sub-contract people say it's not our fault because the "solar company" never told them the proper way to install the brackets, so go sue the "solar company".

My neighbor has been in so many court battles over this it is not even funny. In the end he will have paid more for to the lawyers than any money he would have possibly saved going "solar".

I told him to just turn his air conditioning up to 78 degrees to save some money when he first told me about going "solar".

I wonder if he wishes he had done that now....

Jim

I wonder if he wishes he had done his homework on the company he hired. penetrating a roof is something that needs to be done with care. A normal install would involve lag bolts into rafters not bolts. They make great water tight brackets for the racking systems but they still have to be installed correctly. I'd put a system on my roof without hesitation.

 

[Git]

He was bragging to some of us one day this past spring about his new solar installation that he was going to have done, and how it was going to save him so much money, and that he got it at really reduced cost, and that here in New Jersey they were going to be giving him some really great incentives to go solar.

Sounds like he got screwed by his contractor - wouldn' be the first time, this board is full of stories of contractors hired to build garages, pour cement, etc that didn't work out

As Walrus pointed out - you need to do your due diligence anytime you hire a contractor to prevent things like this happening.

When it comes to roof mounted Solar Installs - the attachments to the roof should be considered a 'penetration' and double flashed using an approved system like this:

A good contractor will warranty his workmanship for at least 10 years. You get what you pay for

 

[Tunajoe]

Tunajoe - grid tied with net metering? That is a pretty neat system you have. Would be cool to see a detailed post on your setup.

Larry
Yes, grid tied and i believe net metering

 

[Tunajoe]

My neighbor down the street from me would agree with you 100 percent!

He was bragging to some of us one day this past spring about his new solar installation that he was going to have done, and how it was going to save him so much money, and that he got it at really reduced cost, and that here in New Jersey they were going to be giving him some really great incentives to go solar.

A few weeks later there are guys crawling all over his roof installing the panels and doing it really fast. I thought it looked like it was going too fast, but said neighbor was bragging and bragging about how he was going to saves tons of money.

Fast forward a few months and I see this guys house with the roof ripped off of it and a bunch of different guys crawling all over the place.

I saw my neighbor and asked what was going on? He said that the "installation guys" were just basically a bunch of hired day workers and they really had no idea how to install the panels correctly.

Apparently they just drilled holes for the solar brackets RIGHT THRU THE ROOF! Yep, that's right. They just drilled holes from the outside of his roof, down thru the shingles, the tar paper and the plywood, making hundreds of holes into his attic!

The "installation guys" then had one guy on the outside of the roof put the bolts thru the brackets and then one guy in the attic put the nuts on the bolts and tightened up the nuts to hold the brackets.

This perfect installation caused tens of thousands of dollars in damage to the interior of my neighbors house when it rained, not to mention the fact that he needed a new roof.

And the best part? The "solar company" says they are not responsible, it was the fault of the people they sub-contracted the work out to, so go sue them. And the sub-contract people say it's not our fault because the "solar company" never told them the proper way to install the brackets, so go sue the "solar company".

My neighbor has been in so many court battles over this it is not even funny. In the end he will have paid more for to the lawyers than any money he would have possibly saved going "solar".

I told him to just turn his air conditioning up to 78 degrees to save some money when he first told me about going "solar".

I wonder if he wishes he had done that now....

Jim

I was talking to a solar install guy and I was asking about roof top solar. I asked what he did when he can't find the roofing joists.
He said they repeatedly punch thru till they hit a rafter.
Made me glad I did a ground mount

 

[Tunajoe]

I do own, not lease a 9.1 KW solar system that utilizes 36 panels at 245 watts each. My ROI is at approximately 9 years using my calculations. Use the Solar companies calculations as a starting point and not an end point.

Questions:
1. The US government allows a 30% tax credit. Is your tax bill high enough that you can utilize the tax credit? If not then you are leaving money on the table.

2. What is the cost per KW when purchasing a system? The cost per KW should be between $2 to $3 dollars per KW.

3. What is the length of the ROI?

One thing that no one has mentioned: Solar panel efficiently drops when the temp goes above 90 degrees. When the outside temperature is below 90 degrees my system outputs about 35 KW per day in spring and fall. During the summer here in Arizona my system drops to about 17 KW per day due to high temperatures, no solar salesman ever mentioned this.

Yes, I would put solar in again, the numbers worked for me. The power company has net metering and I do produce more power over the course of a year then I use. But look at the financial side very closely; Solar does not pay off for everyone.

I have the same size system you do....a 9.1 KW but I have 32 285 w panels.
I consistently produce over 50 kwh/ day even when it's well over a 100 degrees plus my panels are filthy right now. I produced 52kwH today.
I think somethings not right. Better check to see if everything is ok

 

[paranoid56]

per my contract with the solar installers, they are responsible for any leaks on the roof. they also will come out and pull the solar if i need to do new shingles too. however there is a reinstall fee.
but all in all, i am fine with that as i wouldnt expect them to do it all for free.

 

[Tunajoe]

per my contract with the solar installers, they are responsible for any leaks on the roof. they also will come out and pull the solar if i need to do new shingles too. however there is a reinstall fee.
but all in all, i am fine with that as i wouldnt expect them to do it all for free.

Thats how it should be, right?
installer should be held responsible if they don't do a proper job.

On another note, heading down to your area today to jump on a 1.5 day fishing trip! I love SD

 

[tyme2par4]

Thats how it should be, right?
installer should be held responsible if they don't do a proper job.

On another note, heading down to your area today to jump on a 1.5 day fishing trip! I love SD

Right, and that's how most of the reputable installers handle it. Leaking roofs are not typical in solar, they're the result of shoddy work.

 

[Jo Diesel]

Hopefully more people post their good and bad experiences. Don't really care about OPINIONS.
More pics of installs.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

per my contract with the solar installers, they are responsible for any leaks on the roof. they also will come out and pull the solar if i need to do new shingles too. however there is a reinstall fee.
but all in all, i am fine with that as i wouldnt expect them to do it all for free.

Solar panels mounted on top of an asphalt shingle roof WILL have leaks and reduce the life of the roof, regardless of installation method. It's an industry fact. When the time comes to repair/replace the roof, will your installer still be around? Many of these installation contractors aren't directly associated with the panel manufacturer or the electrician and have a tendency to have short lifespans. Their name may likely have changed 5 times or they will be gone before you ever get any leaks. The installation itself doesn't always directly cause the leaks. Moisture under the rails against the shingles and sometimes decreased airflow cause premature aging of the roof. That's why many roof warranties are voided by solar panels, regardless of installation procedure used. Does your installation include it's own warranty covering roof integrity?


Tommy

 

[Tunajoe]

This system works well.
http://static1.squarespace.com/stat...11385298/RoofTrac+UL2703+Class+A+brochure.pdf
I used their ground mount system and worked very well.
Jo Diesel, When I get back from fishing, I'll start a thread on my ground mount system

 

[CJ7VFR]

I wonder if he wishes he had done his homework on the company he hired. penetrating a roof is something that needs to be done with care. A normal install would involve lag bolts into rafters not bolts. They make great water tight brackets for the racking systems but they still have to be installed correctly. I'd put a system on my roof without hesitation.

I don't know if he just ended up going with the "cheapest" guy, or if he hired what he thought was a reputable solar company. I will ask him the next time I see him.

What I see more and more, at least around my area of New Jersey, is that you can get references from reputable companies, but when it comes time to do the actual installation/work, the people that show up can barely speak English, and there are so many of them, none of them is ever the "forman" or person in charge.

As Tommy said, most of the businesses in this area that installed solar panels on the roofs of houses are no longer in business, or they have changed hands a dozen times over a dozen years, and anytime you mention the word "warranty", the newest owner/name of the company tells you that any implied "warranty" ended when the original business who installed the panels went belly up.

There are 7 homes on my street that have solar panels on their roofs, and every single one of them has had some type of leaks develop over time. And when the home owners went to get "warranty" work done to fix the leaks, it has always ended in the new owner of the company saying "sorry, I didn't do the work. If you want it fixed, you can go after the guy who did the work, or pay me extra to fix it" type things.

What I see more and more in the central New Jersey area where I live is less and less roof top installations, and more and more ground installations where there are rows and rows of panels. We actually call it "solar sprawl".

Jim

 

[walrus]

I don't know if he just ended up going with the "cheapest" guy, or if he hired what he thought was a reputable solar company. I will ask him the next time I see him.

What I see more and more, at least around my area of New Jersey, is that you can get references from reputable companies, but when it comes time to do the actual installation/work, the people that show up can barely speak English.

As Tommy said, most of the businesses in this area that installed solar panels on the roofs of houses are no longer in business, or they have changed hands a dozen times over a dozen years, and anytime you mention the word "warranty", the newest owner/name of the company tells you that any implied "warranty" ended when the original business who installed the panels went belly up.

There are 7 homes on my street that have solar panels on their roofs, and every single one of them has had some type of leaks develop over time. And when the home owners went to get "warranty" work done to fix the leaks, it has always ended in the new owner of the company saying "sorry, I didn't do the work. If you want it fixed, you can go after the guy who did the work, or pay me extra to fix it" type things.

What I see more and more in the central New Jersey area where I live is less and less roof top installations, and more and more ground installations where there are rows and rows of panels. We actually call it "solar sprawl".

Jim

It's a concern for sure. They must have some kind of contract with the solar company. Apparently it doesn't include install ?

 

[CJ7VFR]

It's a concern for sure. They must have some kind of contract with the solar company. Apparently it doesn't include install ?

The issue is when the home owner goes back with an issue about the install, and the original owner of the solar company is no where to be found, as the company has changed hands many times, or the company is no longer in business.

In the case of my neighbor I mentioned in my first post, he has been back and forth in court to get the original owner of the solar company to pay for the removal of the solar panels and subsequent installation of a new roof to stop the leaks.

He has been fighting this battle for months now, with no end in sight because the original "owner" keeps saying his business went belly up, and that there is no money left from the original business to give.

So my neighbor is pretty much up shits creek. But he keeps trying, which to me is like spending good money after bad.

Jim

 

[walrus]

The solar industry has a shaky rep and has for years. Back in energy crisis days, solar hot water companies sprung up everywhere, once tax advantages went away so did companies. I have a local solar company whose employees do the install from start to finish. I took a 40 hr class on solar and got NABCEP certified but decided I'm too old to crawl around on roofs. You can install solar on a roof and do it safely but you can't cut corners and expect it to work without issues. Bolting it to roof sheathing is a joke, I'm surprised local code enforcement allowed that. He'll be lucky if the place doesn't burn down if that is an example of there work

 

[Git]

There are always going to be people who use 'fly by night' or 'hack' contractors because they think they are going to save some money...

It is not very hard to to your 'due diligence' and ask some simple questions like do you have your own workers or do you sub them out, etc

"SunPower" is generally considered the Top of the Line when it comes to Solar Panels. They make the best equipment, and they are usually the most expensive.

SunPower doesn't just let anyone install their equipment - they have to be certified. When I went Solar - I found my contractor by reading reviews on Yelp and by checking the SunPower certified installer list for my area
https://us.sunpower.com/dealers-installers/find-dealer-installer/

The contractor I ended up with has won awards from SunPower but they also sell other brands and they pitched me a system using LG Panels with SolarEdge inverters for about $12k less so I went with that. This contractor has been business for over 70 years and uses union electricians. Very happy with my choice

If you want to read about a hack install and how not to do it - read this post. (he eventually ended up doing it himself and it turned out great)

https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/foru...eally-bad-looking-for-some-help-advice-please

 

[jives]

8.1 kW system, 32 panels, microinverters. State and Fed incentives paid about $24K, we owe $12K. The $12K is on our electric bill, plus whatever extra we use from the POCO (NYSEG). That is the net metering at work. Most months we do not take in extra electricity from NYSEG. Payback time was 11 years, now 9 to go. 25 year warranty, meaning that at least 14 years of solar generation is ours to keep. Good deal, yes.

By that time solar shingles, thin film solar panels mounted on metal roofs will be the norm.