Anyone here know about water softners
- Thread starter wookie
- Start date
D KRAGER
Well-known member
All I really know about them is that is ***** carrying 50# bags of salt down the basement stairs when I was growing up!!!!
nate379
Banned
There are some expensive units and as far as I'm concerned a waste of money.
My folks bought a Kenmore unit about 15 years ago and it's still working great.
I was quoted over $2000 for one from Kinetico. I ended up buying the biggest Whirlpool unit at Lowe's for around $550. Home Deport has GE, but the biggest one they has was too small for what I needed. Sears carried Kenmore. Only reason for my choice was I had a 10% off coupon at Lowe's.
Can't say how well it works. I bought it in April and it's still sitting in my garage. Hoping to get it installed over Christmas though. (yeah.... sure.... haha)
My folks bought a Kenmore unit about 15 years ago and it's still working great.
I was quoted over $2000 for one from Kinetico. I ended up buying the biggest Whirlpool unit at Lowe's for around $550. Home Deport has GE, but the biggest one they has was too small for what I needed. Sears carried Kenmore. Only reason for my choice was I had a 10% off coupon at Lowe's.
Can't say how well it works. I bought it in April and it's still sitting in my garage. Hoping to get it installed over Christmas though. (yeah.... sure.... haha)
Last edited:
tdkkart
Well-known member
We also have a Kenmore, was here when we bough the place last year, seems to work just fine. I agree that the "designer" units are no better than the garden variety and are alot cheaper.
nate379
Banned
Only benefit of the Kinetico is they use 2 tanks so when it's regenerating you have soft water.
Big deal, set the thing to run when no one is around usually. Even if you are up in the middle of the night to get a cup of water, it would just be reg hard water instead of soft, so not the end of the world.
Also some models don't use electricity, but I honestly don't think a little timer and a valve control is going to use more than a few dollars of juice a year.
Big deal, set the thing to run when no one is around usually. Even if you are up in the middle of the night to get a cup of water, it would just be reg hard water instead of soft, so not the end of the world.
Also some models don't use electricity, but I honestly don't think a little timer and a valve control is going to use more than a few dollars of juice a year.
kenfath
Well-known member
While not quite on topic it may be a sign of the future. Our water department is offerring up to $2000 to buy your water softener plus they will remove it and restore the piping. The reason is the salty water the softener discharges into the sewer system degrades the waste water to the extent it cannot be recycled.
jvitez
Well-known member
The number one thing is to get your water tested for hardness. Everything depends on this number. Pay for an independent water test. It cost me something like $55 to have a complete water analysis including all electrolytes, total dissolved solids, grains of hardness, and coliform count. Just a hardness test would be cheaper.
Once you have this number, now you can figure out the size of softener needed. We have hard well water, 38 grains, so we needed a 70,000 grain softener for 4 people. It regenerates at 1200 gal of water use, and I have it set to do so at 2:00am. It's got a plug in meter controller. Local dealer builds them himself here so it's not a name brand, but he uses excellent quality parts.
The other thing to keep in mind is not to size it too small. Salt use versus hardness is not a straight line relationship (geometric not arithmetic progression for whoever remembers high school math
) So if you install a too small softener, you will actually use more salt than a larger one. My 70,000 grain softener only goes through one 20kg bag of salt in about 6 weeks, 2 adults, 2 young kids, though we do have water saving appliances.
Once you have this number, now you can figure out the size of softener needed. We have hard well water, 38 grains, so we needed a 70,000 grain softener for 4 people. It regenerates at 1200 gal of water use, and I have it set to do so at 2:00am. It's got a plug in meter controller. Local dealer builds them himself here so it's not a name brand, but he uses excellent quality parts.
The other thing to keep in mind is not to size it too small. Salt use versus hardness is not a straight line relationship (geometric not arithmetic progression for whoever remembers high school math
) So if you install a too small softener, you will actually use more salt than a larger one. My 70,000 grain softener only goes through one 20kg bag of salt in about 6 weeks, 2 adults, 2 young kids, though we do have water saving appliances.benjamming
Well-known member
Culligan is another brand that I haven't seen mentioned. This is what we have along with a RO system.
nate379
Banned
Holy smokes, 38gpg is very hard! I have 30gpg here and it's pretty bad. If I boil a pot of water, where the water was after I empty it will be all white from the minerals.
kenfath I would probably figure a way to sign up for that, then put a softener back in
They say it's fine for septic tanks, so I don't see how it would hurt the town's sewer system.
Wookie, look in the yellow pages, some companies will test your water for free. I had mine done by the Kinnetico dealer. Sure he has an interest in your water being hard, but I knew mine was, just wanted to see how bad.
kenfath I would probably figure a way to sign up for that, then put a softener back in
They say it's fine for septic tanks, so I don't see how it would hurt the town's sewer system.
Wookie, look in the yellow pages, some companies will test your water for free. I had mine done by the Kinnetico dealer. Sure he has an interest in your water being hard, but I knew mine was, just wanted to see how bad.
DHS
Well-known member
You can take a water sample to sears and they will test it for you for free. I bought a Kenmore from sears and could not be happier. My water had A LOT of iron in it, and it takes care of it. They were pretty cheap at the time IIRC.
scooby074
Well-known member
Im needing to replace an old softener.
Are the new computer controlled ones more efficient in their use of salt for a given hardness? Or are they about the same as the old ones?
What brands are the best? Existing is a Culligan or Lindsey i think.
What about the GE one from home depot?
Are the new computer controlled ones more efficient in their use of salt for a given hardness? Or are they about the same as the old ones?
What brands are the best? Existing is a Culligan or Lindsey i think.
What about the GE one from home depot?
Re: Anyone here know about water softeners
Old softeners usually only regenerated on a skip timer, meaning they would regenerate every x number of days based on the setting of the tripper on the timer wheel. New electronic softeners actually meter the gallons of water being used and have to be set up for the particular water hardness they are treating. So, yes, the newer units that meter the water are more efficient, because they will only regenerate when the resin is nearing exhaustion.
All things being equal, if the softener meters the water used, most of the major brands work fine. The average home owner does not need a dual-alternating system, since the regeneration frequency is low and the metering setup is adjusted for a reserve capacity to last the few hours that may be needed until the scheduled regeneration time.
Old softeners usually only regenerated on a skip timer, meaning they would regenerate every x number of days based on the setting of the tripper on the timer wheel. New electronic softeners actually meter the gallons of water being used and have to be set up for the particular water hardness they are treating. So, yes, the newer units that meter the water are more efficient, because they will only regenerate when the resin is nearing exhaustion.
All things being equal, if the softener meters the water used, most of the major brands work fine. The average home owner does not need a dual-alternating system, since the regeneration frequency is low and the metering setup is adjusted for a reserve capacity to last the few hours that may be needed until the scheduled regeneration time.
scooby074
Well-known member
What brands/models are the most efficient users of salt? not only is salt a cost, but its a PITA to load.
Andamo
Well-known member
Make sure you add some sort of filter on the lines before any good faucet or a in-line filter after the softener. I had 2 different systems, and in both cases, the resin would break into small particles and wreck the seals in the faucets. Both companies, Cuilligan and a local company, wouldn't stand behind the repairs that needed to be done, so I had the softeners removed.
DHS
Well-known member
Andamo makes a great point, I have seen many water softeners do just what he said. I have to inline whole house filters after mine. I just change the filters out about once a year.
nate379
Banned
That is the first time I have heard of that.
I did a google search and the results I got said it was caused by a failure of the softener.
Not that putting a filter after the softener is a bad idea, but in my case where I am on a well I would imagine it would lower the water pressure even more.
I am going to put a filter before the softener to keep sediment from getting into it. I don't have anything right now and I have to pull the aerators off the faucets every couple months.
Oh something to think about as well... if you water your lawn off your house water you will want to not have that water circuit on the softener. Not only will you overwhelm the softener, but it's not good for the grass either.
I did a google search and the results I got said it was caused by a failure of the softener.
Not that putting a filter after the softener is a bad idea, but in my case where I am on a well I would imagine it would lower the water pressure even more.
I am going to put a filter before the softener to keep sediment from getting into it. I don't have anything right now and I have to pull the aerators off the faucets every couple months.
Oh something to think about as well... if you water your lawn off your house water you will want to not have that water circuit on the softener. Not only will you overwhelm the softener, but it's not good for the grass either.
Last edited:
DHS
Well-known member
The iron in her water is it dissolved iron? When you pour a glass does it look clear at first and then later turn orange? My water looked crystal clear until you let it set for a little while, then it would look like Kool-aid
. I only have the filters after my softener in case the softener fails, and dumps the little beads in the water. I read that there is different types of rusty water, I got lucky. 
As far as what softener to buy, I like my Kenmore from Sears and it was priced right also.
DHS
Well-known member
Mine worked great for me. I have no staining at all.DHS
Well-known member
I dont know about that, when I was shopping at sears they said that my softener would remove X amount of dissolved (soluble ) iron, but if my iron problem ( Insoluble ) that I would need a different kind of filter. I when with a softener because it was the cheapest way out, and because I knew that a neighbor had good luck with a softener removing the rust. I really know very little about this, so her softener may be doing what it should and she might need a different filter?
I bought a Kenmore 350 Series Water Softener and I think it was about $500 with ext. warranty.
DHS
Well-known member
You might should have her water tested before and after the softener to see if it is doing what is should or not. Good luck and Merry Christmas.
Jaguar Fan
Well-known member
I bought a unit from http://www.apluswater.net/ and it worked out really well.
Their prices are much better than what you get at Sears or Lowes, and their internet prices include shipping. FedEx Freight delivered it to my house on the day I asked it.
They offer units that also deal with iron in the water, that have two resin tanks, etc.
Call their 800 number & talk to the sales guy; he was very helpful to me.
Stay away from the so-called "salt-free" systems. There is no scientific evidence they actually work. For example, see http://www.chem1.com/CQ/gallery.html for a discussion by a chemistry professor regarding salt-free systems.
One other thing. Once you put in a salt water softener, make sure you hook a hose up to your hot water heater & drain 3 to 5 gallons each month. It will get rid of a bunch of salt build up in the bottom of the hot water heater that over time will cause problems.
Their prices are much better than what you get at Sears or Lowes, and their internet prices include shipping. FedEx Freight delivered it to my house on the day I asked it.
They offer units that also deal with iron in the water, that have two resin tanks, etc.
Call their 800 number & talk to the sales guy; he was very helpful to me.
Stay away from the so-called "salt-free" systems. There is no scientific evidence they actually work. For example, see http://www.chem1.com/CQ/gallery.html for a discussion by a chemistry professor regarding salt-free systems.
One other thing. Once you put in a salt water softener, make sure you hook a hose up to your hot water heater & drain 3 to 5 gallons each month. It will get rid of a bunch of salt build up in the bottom of the hot water heater that over time will cause problems.
Andamo
Well-known member
Nate, I'm also on a well too and the particles that were wrecking the seals and seats came from the softener, not from the well itself. So put your filter after the softener. And the pressure drop across the filter will be minimal.
Jaguar Fan
Well-known member
I bought the "FLECK 5600SXT ON-DEMAND WATER SOFTENER 40,000 GRAIN CAPACITY" and also bought the 4 stage reverse osmosis system.
I don't know for sure, but I think this vendor is actually a sales outlet for an OEM who makes products for other companies to put their own logos on & resell them.
As far as I can tell, this is identical to items specialty stores sell for $2000 to $2500.
The FLECK valve is top of the line quality. I decided to buy the electronic programmable unit and I'm happy with it. I have it set up so it measures the volume of water that has gone through the system, and when it hits the trigger point, it does a regeneration at 2AM. Everything is programmable. The sales guy can help you figure out if you need anything other than the standard preset values.
I installed my own. It is not a difficult thing if you can learn how to sweat a copper pipe. I did not have this skill prior to this project and taught myself on a few test sections of copper and then went at it. Worked fine and saved myself at least 200 on the install.
Joe69
Well-known member
I replaced my old Sears unit (regenerate on a timer) with a new Waterboss ( regen on x number of gallons) that I got at Menards. I use about 1/3 the salt I used to.
I had my septic tank pumped the other day, and the guy told me that water softeners are hard on a septic system. the salt will eat at the concrete tank.
Joe
I had my septic tank pumped the other day, and the guy told me that water softeners are hard on a septic system. the salt will eat at the concrete tank.
Joe
HetrickElectric
Member
Are you guys running your discharge off your softener into the sewer line? If so why not just plumb it out side. Dig a reasonable hole fill with stones and run your discharge line to it. The water will kill all plants around it if it soaks out in to the ground. You want it to go down not out.
brokenknee
Well-known member
I used to install water softeners awhile back; there are five basic control heads that I know of, Autotrol, Clack, Erie, Fleck and Kinetico. I know other have said they have had good luck with the big box store brands, but most of them have smaller control valves that tend not to hold up as well as the ones you would buy from a dealer or online.
I would recommend one with a Clack or Autotrol valve, they are the easiest ones to work on when (not if) something goes wrong. I currently have a Kinetico only because I was able to buy it at cost when I installed for them. Prior to that I had one with the Autotrol valve that lasted 20 years; with me rebuilding the control valve at about 15 years. As far as I know it still may be in the house, it was there when I sold it.
If I still did not have a local source for softeners I think I would order a Clack online and install it myself. It is not hard to do if you have basic plumbing skills.
Here is a link on how to size a water softener; http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm
If you google Clack water softeners you will find a number of places you can order them from.
I would recommend one with a Clack or Autotrol valve, they are the easiest ones to work on when (not if) something goes wrong. I currently have a Kinetico only because I was able to buy it at cost when I installed for them. Prior to that I had one with the Autotrol valve that lasted 20 years; with me rebuilding the control valve at about 15 years. As far as I know it still may be in the house, it was there when I sold it.
If I still did not have a local source for softeners I think I would order a Clack online and install it myself. It is not hard to do if you have basic plumbing skills.
Here is a link on how to size a water softener; http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm
If you google Clack water softeners you will find a number of places you can order them from.
brokenknee
Well-known member
The filter should be installed before the softener and after the pressure tank. You want the filter to catch the larger junk in the water before it hits the softener. The sand and other debris (especially from a well) is very hard on your softener and letting it enter the softener will dramatically shorten its life.
brokenknee
Well-known member
Resin will break down over time; there should be a screen in the softener that prevents it from getting into your supply system. How old were the softeners that you had problems with?
One reason I have seen this, is the softener was plumbed backwards. The softener will still work, but not well. I pulled a two year old Sears unit the person got tired of dealing with under warranty. He had three different techs out and they all missed it. Went to pull it out and seen right away what the problem was, plumbed backwards. Well good for the salesman anyway.
Resin should last about 10 to 12 years, but have seen it last up to 25.