Anyone install a hot water recirculating pump?

[neblinc]

I am looking into doing this in my house where the bathroom is on the opposite end of the hot water heater. We are are on a well system and we waste a lot of water waiting for it to get hot.
I see there are under sink models and one like these.
Anyone have any experience with these? pros and cons?
How hard are they to install?


Randy

 

[BD1]

I did mine without a pump. Take the last fixture and continue the hot water line pipe to the water heater. Remove the heater drain on bottom of tank. Add ******, tee , and drain. One end of tee will have the drain reinstalled
and the other will have a ******, union, ******, and ball valve. The ball valve is for balancing the return water. Works awesome . I have a natural gas heater. A 1/2'' line is enough for the return. My run is about 80'.

 

[Jackfre]

The Metlund Design system is the best out there. Pricey, but the best. I would suggest that you look at how many minutes a day you are actually in the master bathroom. Buy some 3/4" pex and run a dedicated re-circ line back to the water heater. I would put it on a wall switch and when you get up and turn on the light, turn on the pump. Don't forget to turn it off. Shouldn't have to run much longer than the time it takes to do your business and you will have hot water. Grundfos makes a pump with a time clock built in if you want to go that way. Make sure you put good insulation on your hw lines.

The thing to realize is that an improperly set up recirc can cost you more in heat loss on the pipe that the actual cost of the hot water you use.

 

[volvo]

..
Neighbor installed a kit that transferred water near facet from hot to cold until temp came up. He really likes it and reduced his electric & water bills.

 

[socapots]

any idea if a small instant water heater would work for you.
Ive had thoughts of doing something similar with a bathroom that is kinda far from the water heater. Always ***** having cold water to washup in the winter. pipe runs through heated crawl space but it still takes its sweet time to heat up.

 

[neblinc]

BD1- How does the water stay hot in the pipe without a pump?

jackfre - I realize I will pay more in energy, but I am worried about the well. Been so dry around here, not sure if the underground is getting recharged.
I like the switch idea, maybe wired into the light switch.

socapots - I don't think a instant water heater could keep up with the shower.
I have a small unit for my shop sink and it only works if I don't open the faucet all the way.

Randy

 

[nehog]

Once had a faucet that didn't close the connection between the hot and cold water lines. Natural convection kept the hot nice and warm, but did also make the cold a bit warm... Cost: nothing much, really.

But if I were to want this (instant hot water) I'd go with under the sink on-demand water heaters.

 

[theoldwizard1]

..
Neighbor installed a kit that transferred water near facet from hot to cold until temp came up. He really likes it and reduced his electric & water bills.

I saw that done on TOH. Push the button, wait about 30-60 seconds (with the water off) and instant hot water.

 

[wrench409]

This device while pricey has been advertised on the radio, TV and net.

http://hotwaterlobster.com/

 

[neblinc]

This device while pricey has been advertised on the radio, TV and net.

http://hotwaterlobster.com/

That looks like a simple way to accomplish what I want!!

Randy

 

[wrench409]

That looks like a simple way to accomplish what I want!!

Randy

And not nearly as pricey as a MetLund design. No electricity or pump, just a bi-metal operated valve that is adjustable. I read the reviews and most are satisfied.

I think this is a project for me as well. The main shower is on the opposite end of our place from the water heater. We run the water for 2-4 minutes before getting any warm/hot water. Ten seconds is acceptable!

 

[yyc_ranger_4x4]

When my mom and stepdad built their new house, he installed a circulating system on the hot water side through an instant/continous hot water system. I was skeptical, but the heater is setup to only kick on when the water temp drops, not for when the water is flowing. When a hot water tap is turned on, there's hot water almost instantly.

It's weird when I'm over there now....go to wash your hands after working on a project with my stepdad, and usually when you turn on the water you have time to wash up before the water is too hot....it his case it's hot right away. LOL...

All of the hot water lines are insulated in his place. Along with a ton of spray foam insulation, 10" thick exterior walls, as much attic insulation as he could get, etc etc. We did the math on the circulation pump, and it should only cost him about an extra $20 a year to run it. Definitely worth it seeing as how much money he'll save with the other upgrades he did.

 

[neblinc]

After surfing the web for reviews, I am not so certain about this product. Lots of exact word for word reviews on many of the sites. Lobster spammer? Going to check around some more and see what else is out there. Trying to watch This Old House episode 1019 but getting terrible streaming speeds.

Now I am leaning toward the Chilpepper system.

Randy

 

[jvitez]

We had a Grundfos circulating pump installed when our house was built. It's on 24/7, the plumber was rather old school, as only much later did I discover the thermostatic controlled pumps.

It does cost money as in the summer the hot water is slowly being cooling circulating around, but in winter it doesn't matter as we need the heat in the basement anyway. All in all I love it. We're on a well & septic, same issues. No waiting for hot water is fabulous. I wasn't enamored with the push-button type systems. When this pump fails I'll replace it with a thermostatic controlled one.

 

[neblinc]

Geez, same deal with the Chilipepper system, lots of reviews written by Bill Lund the owner of the company. My head hurts with all this. Maybe I will stop at Home Depot to see what they have.

Randy

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I did mine without a pump. Take the last fixture and continue the hot water line pipe to the water heater. Remove the heater drain on bottom of tank. Add ******, tee , and drain. One end of tee will have the drain reinstalled
and the other will have a ******, union, ******, and ball valve. The ball valve is for balancing the return water. Works awesome . I have a natural gas heater. A 1/2'' line is enough for the return. My run is about 80'.

Thank you

 

[BD1]

BD1- How does the water stay hot in the pipe without a pump?

Here's the answer.http://www.plumbinghelp.ca/hot_water_recirculation.php

here's picture.http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...l&id=A9DC6D0F46BE03926FE3DAC0CD2F9C64C107B1F5

with pump added.http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...l&id=2AF1F2717649AF360654AA8639BDB815B50F9E12

The gravity system is awesome. If you install it and do have a flow issue then just add the pump.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Ask This Old House Episode

 

[socapots]

My bad. I ment that it would only run until the hot water got to it. Pretty sure they have some that will shut off when a certain input or output temp is reached.

 

[neblinc]

So what I think I want is a pump system since I do not want to run pipes in my crawlspace which has a dirt floor and barely enough room to crawl on your back. I like the HP rating of the Chilipepper unit but worry about the quality of the unit. Most reviews are not that good. The Watts unit shown on Ask This Old house looks well built but I can't find the specs on it, GPH, HP.
I like the idea of a push button instead of a timer so it only uses electricity when you need the hot water. Will keep on lookin.

Randy

 

[wssix99]

After surfing the web for reviews, I am not so certain about this product. Lots of exact word for word reviews on many of the sites. Lobster spammer? Going to check around some more and see what else is out there. Trying to watch This Old House episode 1019 but getting terrible streaming speeds.

Now I am leaning toward the Chilpepper system.

Randy

It looks like an easy way to try recirculation.

You don't need a pump in a house. (Pumps are a PITA to maintain.) You can have a passive hot water loop in a house, but will need to extend a line to the highest point and add dedicated return lines to the water heater. But... this is a lot easier done for new construction. This lobster thing might work well in some places, but I could see where you might need multiple devices, depending on how a house is plumbed.

 

[911mike]

I have a 100+ft run from my tank to my kitchen and laundry room. We run a recirculate pump and return line. Everything is fully insulated and hot water is instant. If I had to do it again I think I would look at a separate tankless water heater just for that side of the house. Demand is not that great and you can get decent prices today. I'm thinking a medium sized unit for the kitchen and laundry and replace the water heater with a large tankless to cover the other side of the house with 3 bathrooms It's just got to be more efficient.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

I bought a Chili Pepper about a year or two ago.

http://www.chilipepperapp.com/

Very, very happy with it. I was toying with doing my own deal with a Grundfos pump, a thermostat, a timer, switch, etc. etc. etc. I thought the Chili Pepper was a little pricey, but went for it.

Very, very, very happy. Installed it on a Saturday; took longer than I thought it would (but what doesn't). Has never failed us. A little noisier than I expected, but we're still happy. We live on a well and septic with a natural gas water heater, so maybe our savings isn't as much as someone living on city water/sewer (first buy the water and then sell it back to them) using electricity to heat the water.

I recommend the Chili Pepper. I'm not Bill Lund, I don't know Bill Lund, and I'm NOT shilling for him.

A guy I work with complained about how long it took to get the hot water from the water heater in his basement to the shower(s) on the 2nd floor. I told him about the Chili Pepper. He had a plumber come over first. The plumber said, "Someone already took care of your slow hot water problem; but someone unhooked it." Apparently there was a pipe from upstairs to back to the water heater that had been unhooked at some point. Plumber unhooked it, and my friend had much quicker hot water!

 

[neblinc]

Thanks for the feedback on the Chilipepper system ****. Think I will give it a try and hopefully it will be my answer to my hot water problem.

Randy

 

[smokem2020]

I put a small pump unit in my sisters house, I think it was the 'watts' unit but not sure, It had a small hard wired push button in the bathroom. When you pushed it, the unit pumped 'cold' hot water into the cold water pipes untill the thermocouple was satisfied. The pump was the smallest pump I have seen. 1/8hp? There was also a remote switch that I put in the kitchen that was about 1/2 way between the bath. Worked beautiful, she loved it. When she moved to a smaller house she wanted another one but could just get a timer model. She didn't like it a bit.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

I put a small pump unit in my sisters house, I think it was the 'watts' unit but not sure, It had a small hard wired push button in the bathroom. When you pushed it, the unit pumped 'cold' hot water into the cold water pipes untill the thermocouple was satisfied. The pump was the smallest pump I have seen. 1/8hp? There was also a remote switch that I put in the kitchen that was about 1/2 way between the bath. Worked beautiful, she loved it. When she moved to a smaller house she wanted another one but could just get a timer model. She didn't like it a bit.

Look at the Chili Pepper. You sister will love it.

 

[smokem2020]

She has a house in Mexico and wants one there too, but not timer kind. thanks I'll look into it

 

[Norcal]

19 years ago started the plumbing to add a circ. pump, was intending finish replumbing the house to get rid of the 1943 galvy piping but it has never been completed but should have as the water heater is in the garage & it takes a while to get hot water, as it is the roof could get replaced before the plumbing is done. (20 year 3-tab shingles)

My plan was to use a Grundfos pump & a timer to control the times the water is circulating, as it is not needed during the day or late at night & maybe a Intermatic spring wound timer inside as a manual override.

 

[Lhorn]

Like jvitez, I put in a grundfos pump a few years ago. I didn't want to pay or bother putting in pipe to return the water that's being recirculated. The way it works is that a one way valve is put in at the distal end of your water path. Example we have one valve under the kitchen sink and one under our bathroom sink that connects the hot water to the cold water. The pump sits on top of my hot water heater and when it goes on (via a timer) it pushes hot water that returns via the cold water side. It works pretty well. Downside is that when you turn on the cold water, it is sometimes warm for a few seconds. That doesn't bother me because when I want cold water to drink I get it from the dispenser on the fridge. Overall it works pretty well. The wait for the water to warm up when you want to take a shower or wash your face on a cold morning is drastically reduced. When you don't need much hot water (like during the day when you are at work), the pump is not going. I'm pretty happy with it.

 

[jwith68]

We installed a Laing Ecocirc pump in our new house. My local plumbing supply house recommended it (they also sell Grundfos and Taco.) I used a PEX system with 2 Manabloc's, and the pump just circulates in a fully insulated loop of 3/4" PEX between the primary HW heater and the Manabloc's. I have short runs of 1/2" off the Manabloc's (20ft or less), so I have hot water in less than 20 seconds at all faucets in a good sized 2-story house.

The Laing has a built in T-stat, and has an ECM motor, so it is very energy efficient. You can add a timer module to the Laing, but I didn't and don't see much need for it with our installation.

 

[djjsr]

If you recirculate domestic water, I think you need a bronze pump. If I understand it correctly, fresh water (and oxygen) will rust a cast iron pump. They are ok for heating system circulation because the same water is recirculated, so the oxygen causing corrosion isn't a problem.

Grundfos makes bronze pumps, I have 4 of them. I'm pretty sure Taco does as well.

I'm not a plumber but I'd advise you to not use a system that has a pump that runs all the time, unless it's a really really small pump. Fast moving water will erode copper pipe over time, usually at the els. I had a problem with this in the plumbing system at my business and ended up removing the recirculating line.




edit - I posted this because the OP linked to a cast iron pump.

 

[GGB]

Our old house had all hot faucets installed with a passive recurculaing system (no pump) and worked perfectly. When we bought our present home, our master bedroom bathroom was the furthest from the water heaters, and it took a lot of time to get warm water. Fortunately when our plumber was out on another project, I told him about the problem and he said he could still install a return line to fix it. Works great!

Considering that we are on rural water, we are also saving money by not wasting water.

GGB

 

[Greatbear]

I installed a Grundfos pump a few years ago along with a dedicated return line and check valve. I insulated all the pipe runs, hot, cold and return. The system works quite well. Prior to that I would have to let the water in the kitchen run for about a minute to get hot water to the faucet.

 

[jmc13]

You get what you pay for.
I have had a ACT D'MAND System for years, it is quiet "can't hear it", and recirculates all of the hot water in the hot side in less than a minute without putting any warm or hot water in the cold water side. Unlike the timer/siphon systems it saves water and energy because it is ONLY working when I want hot water. (Not wasting energy when I am sleeping, at work, or just not using hot water/which a timer system does). The pump is a heavy duty USA made commercial grade unit and not a loud plastic China unit like the Chillipepper my friend has. (sounds like a vacuum cleaner). You can find them online "amazon etc." at a reasonable price. I recomend installing yourself and found a YouTube video showing how. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHp8_nra3-c
Just Sayin...

 

[Zick]

You get what you pay for.
I have had a ACT D'MAND System for years, it is quiet "can't hear it", and recirculates all of the hot water in the hot side in less than a minute without putting any warm or hot water in the cold water side. Unlike the timer/siphon systems it saves water and energy because it is ONLY working when I want hot water. (Not wasting energy when I am sleeping, at work, or just not using hot water/which a timer system does). The pump is a heavy duty USA made commercial grade unit and not a loud plastic China unit like the Chillipepper my friend has. (sounds like a vacuum cleaner). You can find them online "amazon etc." at a reasonable price. I recomend installing yourself and found a YouTube video showing how. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHp8_nra3-c
Just Sayin...

Actually, I was just reading up on this unit because it looks nice and what you said isn't entirely true.

From their website;

At the push of a button, the STS-Series pumps cold water sitting in the hot water line into the cold water line and back to the water heater. The "temperature sensor" automatically shuts off the pump allowing the pump's IFC (Intergral Flow Control) Valve to close when hot water arrives at the fixture.

The pump won't stop pushing water back into the cold line until it reaches a certain temperature (probably a high temp) which means you are going to get some warm water pushed into the cold line.

Although it looks like a nice unit, I don't know if it's $440 dollars nice.

 

[Lhorn]

The pumps with timers like my Grundfos are nice but it works only as well as my timer settings. Mine has 96 setting (every 15 minutes) but there are times when I want to use how water during the middle of the day (on a weekend or when I have a day off) and I haven't set it to turn on at that time. I'd really like to have a remote button that I can hit and activate the pump to override the time. Just hit it 5 minutes before a shower. that would be a nice feature.

 

[Zick]

Lhorn,

I also have a Grundfos recirculator with the timer setting and also found it to be ok but my schedule is never the same.
What I did was purchase an insteon plug in module and plugged the grundfos into that.
http://www.smarthome.com/2456S3/App...Plug-in-Appliance-Control-Module-3-pin/p.aspx

And because we have insteon switches throughout our house I just setup a few switches to be able to turn on and off the circulator at will.

You could do something very similar but because the remote is RF, you would need an insteon module that is dual band. The plug in module I'm using isn't dual band so you would either need to buy their Access Points or instead of the plug in module you could buy just buy this outlet that is dual band and skip the APs.
http://www.smarthome.com/2472DWH/Ou...-Remote-Control-Outlet-Dual-Band-White/p.aspx
I believe you can use Insteon's remote to control the outlet. I don't have one of these remotes yet but I believe it should work. Not sure on the distance however.
http://www.smarthome.com/2444A2WH4/RemoteLinc-2-INSTEON-Wireless-Keypad-4-Scene/p.aspx

 

[432bullet]

I have had the Watts system for aprox 10 yrs, no problems. Lowes sells them.

 

[Greatbear]

I have a digital seven day multi-event timer I will add to the system rather than relying on the built-in one day timer in the Grundfos pump. I want different schedules for weekends.

 

[Mouzou]

I'd like to revive this old post as I'm looking into a recirc system.
I haphazardly wound up with a hybrid water heater and now that I feel like we are doing as well as we can in terms of hot water efficiency, I want to reduce the amount of water we pour down the drain waiting for the heat!

There are obvious tradeoffs with a recirc system, and I am trying to find the sweet point between energy use, water waste and convenience.

We do not have a dedicated return line, and I want to play with a simple, low cost cross-over valve before determining if a single return line would even provide satisfaction.

I have read about cold water siphoning from the hot water line via the cross-over valve (in particular an amusing story of a guy who learned that his irrigation system was running from the hot side!!), and this is my biggest concern. I don't know enough about check valves to be convinced that their presence in the cross-over valve would prevent siphoning.

Once I get past that point, it seems like a motion or switch operated system presents the best compromise between energy use and convenience. In the era of the smart home, this should be relatively easy to accomplish in a piecemeal system. Piecemeal because I haven't come across many packaged solutions that integrate smart sensors or remote switches on a reasonable budget.

Randy - I'm curious what you ended up going with.

Can any of you others provide feedback from the systems you were using or leaving towards almost 6 years ago?

Thanks