Anyone regret adding heat pump from propane?

[nonhog]

In 7 years we have averaged $2000 year in propane cost. Heating/hot water.
We have instant hot water heater and the average is a tad high based on not burning wood the 1st year as well as the price change of propane.

We have high ceilings but a modest footprint. 1700 sq. ft. rambler.
It includes an unheated 250 sq ft. atrium. rear wall is 18 ft. tall.
Lots of volume. 15X15 glass roof.

In order to heat/cool the whole house it'll take a 4 ton unit. (per quote)
I know nobody here will have much to say w/o seeing my house.
I get that.

A/C would be nice but unless global warming really kicks in. I'd only need it 3 weeks a year. Seattle area.

Now my propane cost are high to me but also of interest is we burn 3-4 cords of wood when able. Some years have been much less.

Just seeing if others have been in my shoes and happy they did or unhappy?
Love cutting/splitting wood but can see that time being better spent in the shop.

Just wondering if the value of having a heat pump is really there?

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

Air to air? Ground water heat pump? What kind are you thinking about? Makes a big difference.

How much do you pay for electricity? If you electrical costs are high ... then the HP might be as expensive as propane. Important part of the equation.

What kind of winter temps do you get? Are they pretty moderate? Another important part of the equation.

Is your house well insulated? All sealed up? Do you have a basement? If you're weak on insulation or have air infiltration, then this is where I'm make my first investment.

 

[brewchief]

I've installed a handfull of heatpumps here in MI and have not had an unhappy customer except for one lady that complains that the air from the heatpump is not as warm as the air from her furnace(and she is correct).

As said above your fuel cost will be a big factor, if electricity is cheap and propane is high then it makes a lot of sense providing your climate is agreeable to a heatpump.

 

[thammel]

I have a propane furnace. I replaced my AC with a heat pump so that I now have a hybrid system. When the outside temp is below 35F, the furnace will kick in. This system is the ideal system, in my opinion. Definitely saves me $ on the net total utility bill.

Tom

 

[nonhog]

Air to air? Ground water heat pump? What kind are you thinking about? Makes a big difference.

Air

How much do you pay for electricity? If you electrical costs are high ... then the HP might be as expensive as propane. Important part of the equation.

http://www.mytpu.org/customer-service/rates/power-rates/

If I am doing it right(?) 8c KW/hr?

What kind of winter temps do you get? Are they pretty moderate? Another important part of the equation.

Few days below 30, several in the high 30's rare to get a full week of sub freezing but it does happen. Seattle avg. temps http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USWA0395

Is your house well insulated? All sealed up? Do you have a basement? If you're weak on insulation or have air infiltration, then this is where I'm make my first investment.

It has decent, from what I can see insulation. Built in 85.
Slab on grade.

Talks in the works about losing the skylights and dropping down a ceiling.
Which has nothing to do with my original reason for the thread.

 

[nonhog]

As said above your fuel cost will be a big factor, if electricity is cheap and propane is high then it makes a lot of sense providing your climate is agreeable to a heatpump.

I know it'll be cheaper but will it be cheap enough to feel good about.
Lots of money out to get cheaper heat cost.
Trying to not jump the gun.

Like keeping the old paid for beater car instead of buying a newer nicer
more efficient car but it requires payments to lower your gas bill.
Yes it would be nicer, smoother but is it wiser?

Unless your car is a horrible gas hog it might not be the right move.
That's where I'm coming from.

 

[nonhog]

I have a propane furnace. I replaced my AC with a heat pump so that I now have a hybrid system. When the outside temp is below 35F, the furnace will kick in. This system is the ideal system, in my opinion. Definitely saves me $ on the net total utility bill.

Tom

Have you any comparisons (bills) I think keeping the Propane as a hybrid
makes sense however one co. suggest the heat pump with a booster heater
when it gets real cold. Seems like going backward (old school)

Lots to think about!

 

[tylernt]

one lady that complains that the air from the heatpump is not as warm as the air from her furnace(and she is correct).

Yep, that's my impression as well when I visit my parents house on an air source heat pump. Don't treat it like a fuel furnace by setting the temp lower at night -- run that puppy at a steady 72° (or whatever) all day and all night, all winter long.

if electricity is cheap and propane is high then it makes a lot of sense providing your climate is agreeable to a heatpump.

I believe the PNW is indeed such a climate, and thanks to hydroelectric dams, electricity is generally cheaper than most of the nation.

 

[Surprise]

I live in the Seattle area and have a NG furnace/HP dual fuel system. The HP works great for all but the coldest days that we experience, then the furnace kicks in. The HP acts as another stage of heating which is an added comfort bonus. With HP running I am getting 95 degree air out of the register (actual value depends on outside temperature), with the furnace running on low stage I'll get about 115 degrees and about 125 degrees on high. I can notice the difference but it's not uncomfortable.

If you go with a HP only and not replace or supplement the your current propane furnace I'd recommend that you add 5Kw or 10KW heating elements or whatever your Manual D calls for in the air handler(preferably staged). One of the downsides with the HP is that in cold weather it goes into defrost mode (essentially operating as an AC to heat the outside coil and defrost it) which can result in a few minutes of cold air being blown into the house. With the heating coils the air is tempered so you won't feel that change in temp. They would also kick as an emergency backup if the HP breaks and you're out of wood or if the price of electricity per BTU is less than the price of wood.

 

[theoldwizard1]

My in-laws live in NC, in the foothills of the Smokie Mountains. A bit warmer than you in summer, but it does get down to around 30 most nights in winter. Their house has a HP with propane fireplaces as backup (never used). Probably a few ore sq ft than you. Electric hot water, stove and clothes dryer.

New neighbor built a slightly larger house (2500 sq ft ?) and installed propane force air and A/C. His propane bill alone is more than twice their electric bill (sorry, don't have the actual numbers).


What you are looking for is a pay back rate. My SWAG is, that if you are averaging less than $200/month for propane, it is going to take more than 5 years to break even, maybe 10. I don't think I would keep the old propane furnace even though it is a good back up, because "plumbing" the hew HP into the existing duct work would be very difficult.

If you decide A/C is a priority, then definitely go with a heat pump. New ones work well down below freezing.

 

[Jackfre]

I would suggest that you look at a mini-split heat pump. You can keep the lp furnace in place and I think you will see real saving by doing this. Prior to doing anything with a ducted heat pump I would suggest that you have your current duct system leak tested and repaired as necessary to make sure you are putting the air where it is supposed to vs where it can leak to

 

[nonhog]

I would suggest that you look at a mini-split heat pump. You can keep the lp furnace in place and I think you will see real saving by doing this. Prior to doing anything with a ducted heat pump I would suggest that you have your current duct system leak tested and repaired as necessary to make sure you are putting the air where it is supposed to vs where it can leak to

I thought that might be an option. Close up the vents when its not real cold maybe. Otherwise the vents could/would be a real heat loss.
Then there's the bedrooms. I don't see adding a mini in each room.
Seems expensive. I suppose we could add cadets in bedrooms as use as needed.

So much to think about!

 

[Highbeam]

Electricuty supplied by Puget Sound Energy, the OP's most likely, is 10 cents per kwh. Cheap.

 

[nonhog]

Electricuty supplied by Puget Sound Energy, the OP's most likely, is 10 cents per kwh. Cheap.

Actually Tacoma Power, even cheaper. Hard to read but see post 5.
Has a chart comparing local company's.

 

[Highbeam]

Actually Tacoma Power, even cheaper. Hard to read but see post 5.
Has a chart comparing local company's.

Good for them. That chart is great info.

I heat 100% with wood with a super duper blaze king woodstove. Three cords this year for our 1700 SF and not a single killowatt for heating. We have the cadets in all rooms for backup.

Your electric costs are very low. Your climate is very moderate. Perfect for a heat pump.

If I had no ducts I would go mini-split. They are super cheap and efficient. Not sure about TPU but PSE actually gives you 1200$ credit towards a minisplit even for a DIY install. Cadets in the bedrooms just in case, though I have found that a central heater (wood stove) has no problems heating bedrooms.

Since you have ducts it is awfully tempting to just pop in a heat pump and air handler but this will cost you 10,000$ and be less efficient than a minisplit. The benefit is ducted heat and no stupid looking inside unit hanging on the wall. Better air filtration options as well.

 

[Jackfre]

You seem to have a pretty open floor plan. Yes? There are a lot of ways to economize in a home. One of them being that you heat only the primary living area to your desired temp and let the BR's run a bit cooler. If you need them heated, open the door for a while. An option to help that is the Tjernlund Airshare.

I abandoned my 5 yr old central H & C system when I bought my home and run a combination of Rinnai Energysavers and Fujitsu Heat pumps. Pretty much the ultimate in zone control. We heat the living room, kitchen all the time and at setback temp at night. The den unit is turned off at night. I did not turn the bedroom units on once all winter. I had enough heat coming up the stairs to heat the bedrooms. I have a VC Encore, but only build about 8 fires per season, unless the power is off.

 

[nonhog]

An option to help that is the Tjernlund Airshare.

Just looked that up. Great idea.
Still thinking! I'm probably going too tough it out this winter but will pull the trigger on a new set up soon. Much depends on what we decide on future remodels.
Some say the warm air from mini splits will find its way out the air duct vents. I bet better sealing vents could be figured out.
Never noticed an issue when using the wood stove.

I'm thinking it would be easier to run a HP into my existing propane furnace.
but slightly (?) less efficient.

 

[mygarageone]

I've installed a handfull of heatpumps here in MI and have not had an unhappy customer except for one lady that complains that the air from the heatpump is not as warm as the air from her furnace(and she is correct).

As said above your fuel cost will be a big factor, if electricity is cheap and propane is high then it makes a lot of sense providing your climate is agreeable to a heatpump.

Remember when we would hear this about a 90+ unit over the old scratch air units. .?

 

[pop pop]

I have a propane furnace. I replaced my AC with a heat pump so that I now have a hybrid system. When the outside temp is below 35F, the furnace will kick in. This system is the ideal system, in my opinion. Definitely saves me $ on the net total utility bill.

Tom

Take a look at the dual fuel heat pumps. The staged units with variable speed blowers are great with a humidistat. Humidity control in the summer, AC, Heat with HP to a selectable outdoor temp (35 is good) fossil fuel below 35, or whatever temp you select (not much below 35 will work). Newer units give a relatively warm air temp most of the usage spectrum, below say 35, you use fossil and the air is warmer when you want it warmer.

PS: You will have the ability to vary the od temp switch from fossil to HP based on comfort and fuel costs. Using the HP 90% of the time is likely for your area and it will be dirt cheap to operate.

 

[theoldwizard1]

MY FIL in NC (in the Smokey Mountains) has a heat pump. He has propane log fireplaces for backup. Never used them. All other appliances are electric. His electric bill is MUCH less than his neighbor's combined electric/propane bill.

I would stick with propane for cooking, hot water and clothes drying. No reason to swap those out if they are in good condition.

If you need a new furnace, it is a "no brainer". Go heat pump. If you are trying to save money, expect at least 5 years (maybe more) for pay back of the system

 

[nonhog]

If you need a new furnace, it is a "no brainer". Go heat pump. If you are trying to save money, expect at least 5 years (maybe more) for pay back of the system

Propane furnace is less than 5 years old. Its not a matter of if but which system? I will do most if not all the install with some help from friends.
I am doing a heat pump of some sort. I may be able to recoup cost faster because I won't be paying installed prices.

(one can hope!)