I was wondering if anyone has used CSST gas pipe instead of black iron pipe in the garage, thinking putting gas out to the garage about 90 ft from the house, I would use plastic in the underground but was wondering the pros and cons of CSST in the garage. The garage is already insulated and dry walled and seems that maybe the CSST would be easier to run than black pipe since where the gas line would enter the garage is on opposite sides and would need to go up the wall about 10ft and across the ceiling about 30ft. I would like to hide the pipe as much as possible even if I would need to open the wall up. I have access above the ceiling. Just wondering if anyone has used this stuff or should I stick with black iron.
Anyone use CSST gas pipe ?
- Thread starter rinker1
- Start date
6768rogues
Banned
Our local gas company uses plastic for their lines and run a wire in the trench to allow them to find the gas line later. However, they do not allow owners to bury plastic. For my barn, they told me I would have to use black iron pipe and sleeve it with plastic if I did it myself. I had them put in plastic and a separate meter at the barn. They put in up to 100 feet of service pipe free with a new meter account and my barn was about 103 feet from where they spliced into the line feeding the house so I paid a small fee for the extra footage. They use higher pressure with a regulator at the meter, so they could feed both meters from the line to the house (which is what you propose but at a lower pressure building to building). If anything goes wrong with the line, it is theirs and not mine to fix.
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At those distances (ie 90 ft buried, plus inside garage), I certainly would NOT degrade your flow with CSST in garage.
Would be much better long-term and ensure proper flow to use surface mount black pipe steel inside your garage. Also nothing safer than black pipe steel. Do it right the first time !!
While you're working with black pipe steel, plan out and install an air line system around the upper perimeter of garage !!
Would be much better long-term and ensure proper flow to use surface mount black pipe steel inside your garage. Also nothing safer than black pipe steel. Do it right the first time !!
While you're working with black pipe steel, plan out and install an air line system around the upper perimeter of garage !!
6768rogues
Banned
As far as in the building, I would use black pipe. It is 15 times thicker than flex pipe and is much more damage resistant. In my garage, things are moved, pushed, sometimes fall, etc. and I like damage resistant piping.
I ran CSST from my basement, through the wall, and out to my garage heater. It is easy to work with, just be sure not to 'kink' it. The cost is a little higher, but I only have 2 fittings to check, plus I didn't have to buy a lot of fittings, thus making it not much more expensive that black pipe. I put a shut-off valve on both ends. Mine was only about a 30 foot run. CSST is used in almost all new homes anymore, as it allows a seamless run, and that is great inside a finished wall.
It also saves cutting and threading, and if you're like me, I didn't want to spend the money on a pipe threader that I was only going to use once.
It also saves cutting and threading, and if you're like me, I didn't want to spend the money on a pipe threader that I was only going to use once.
6768rogues
Banned
If you decide to go the black pipe route, you can rent a threader. I rented a nice big name brand threader and the tripod vise for a day and ran all the pipe in my house and shop in that one day. It cost about $35 but that was 20 years ago.
ElectroLight
Well-known member
Or you could pickup the tripod vise and threader from CL and enhance your tool collection at the same time. I ended up scoring extra credit with the wifey when I used my "new" tools to crank out a cool out-of-the-way railing for our narrow stairway
HoosierBuddy
Well-known member
This has been discussed here before, so you might want to do a search.
Here's a good resource for one type of CSST "Wardflex".
http://www.wardflex.com/images/design_install_guide.pdf
If you were going to install their product, it would have to be installed according to those guidelines. Every manufacturer has their own guide, so if you're using Tracpipe, you need to go with their guide, etc.
Most people, IMHO, that are buying CSST at the Home Depot, don't have a clue on how to install it properly or what the requirements are. Because of this, and because of issues with the product itself (mostly related to the very thin wall), CSST can be a hazard.
What I've seen in the last 12 years is that initially there was a big move towards CSST in new home construction during the housing boom when home builders were really trying to figure out new ways to cut labor and cost from new home construction. THEN, there were a number of house fires associated with lightning strikes on the structure, where CSST became energized by lightning and the thin stainless melted causing catastrophic gas leaks and fires.
The CSST manufacturers responded to these issues by changing the installation requirements to include electrical bonding. The bonding requirements add a lot of complexity to the proper installation of CSST, and in many cases are ignored by DIYers to their own (and their families own) peril.
After the issues came to light, some jurisdictions came out with new, more stringent, installation requirements for CSST themselves, that tended to make CSST harder and more expensive to install. For example, they might require 1-foot of separation between the CSST and any adjacent conductor. This caused a lot of home builders to revert back to black iron pipe. It may be also that the housing slowdown made it easier to find trained plumbers so that a "quick and dirty" gas line solution was no longer necessary? That's a complete guess. But I did notice an extreme drop of in CSST being used in new construction around here.
Also...I'm not PERSONALLY 100% convinced that the bonding requirements actually completely fix the problems. I have no data one way or the other. I just know that black pipe has been used to successfully plumb gas for about 100 years and CSST hasn't. Further, CSST as originally conceived and installed, was not 100% safe even though the manufacturers successfully marketed it to many people. Now they sort of say "we had some problems, but as long as you install it properly, it's safe".
A. I'm not sure I believe them.
B. I know a lot of DIYers and many professionals don't follow all the guidelines properly, and history has shown that if not bonded properly CSST can contribute to structure fires if energized by lightning.
C. It's a violation of the national fuel code to install CSST if you are not properly trained and certified...meaning even if you install everything properly...if you aren't certified to the manufacturer's guidelines, your installation does not meet code...because you're in violation of the certification requirements.
That's just my take on it. YMMV.
Phil
Here's a good resource for one type of CSST "Wardflex".
http://www.wardflex.com/images/design_install_guide.pdf
If you were going to install their product, it would have to be installed according to those guidelines. Every manufacturer has their own guide, so if you're using Tracpipe, you need to go with their guide, etc.
Most people, IMHO, that are buying CSST at the Home Depot, don't have a clue on how to install it properly or what the requirements are. Because of this, and because of issues with the product itself (mostly related to the very thin wall), CSST can be a hazard.
What I've seen in the last 12 years is that initially there was a big move towards CSST in new home construction during the housing boom when home builders were really trying to figure out new ways to cut labor and cost from new home construction. THEN, there were a number of house fires associated with lightning strikes on the structure, where CSST became energized by lightning and the thin stainless melted causing catastrophic gas leaks and fires.
The CSST manufacturers responded to these issues by changing the installation requirements to include electrical bonding. The bonding requirements add a lot of complexity to the proper installation of CSST, and in many cases are ignored by DIYers to their own (and their families own) peril.
After the issues came to light, some jurisdictions came out with new, more stringent, installation requirements for CSST themselves, that tended to make CSST harder and more expensive to install. For example, they might require 1-foot of separation between the CSST and any adjacent conductor. This caused a lot of home builders to revert back to black iron pipe. It may be also that the housing slowdown made it easier to find trained plumbers so that a "quick and dirty" gas line solution was no longer necessary? That's a complete guess. But I did notice an extreme drop of in CSST being used in new construction around here.
Also...I'm not PERSONALLY 100% convinced that the bonding requirements actually completely fix the problems. I have no data one way or the other. I just know that black pipe has been used to successfully plumb gas for about 100 years and CSST hasn't. Further, CSST as originally conceived and installed, was not 100% safe even though the manufacturers successfully marketed it to many people. Now they sort of say "we had some problems, but as long as you install it properly, it's safe".
A. I'm not sure I believe them.
B. I know a lot of DIYers and many professionals don't follow all the guidelines properly, and history has shown that if not bonded properly CSST can contribute to structure fires if energized by lightning.
C. It's a violation of the national fuel code to install CSST if you are not properly trained and certified...meaning even if you install everything properly...if you aren't certified to the manufacturer's guidelines, your installation does not meet code...because you're in violation of the certification requirements.
That's just my take on it. YMMV.
Phil
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dave67fd
Well-known member
Good Info Phil.
Not enough people with a head on their shoulders when it comes to gas installs.
Not enough people with a head on their shoulders when it comes to gas installs.
^ ^ ^ FABULOUS post on potential risk of CSST . . . Thanks Hoosier Buddy.
For safety of all current & little future GJer's, we thank you !!
OP . . . if you really consider risky idea of going CSST, then make SURE you know all the risks as even the Home Inspectors are scared shitless of CSST if you poke around on their forums.
http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_...strike-corrugated-stainless-steel-tubing.html
http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/corrugated-stainless-steel-tubing-bonding-poll-41981/
For safety of all current & little future GJer's, we thank you !!
OP . . . if you really consider risky idea of going CSST, then make SURE you know all the risks as even the Home Inspectors are scared shitless of CSST if you poke around on their forums.
http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_...strike-corrugated-stainless-steel-tubing.html
http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/corrugated-stainless-steel-tubing-bonding-poll-41981/
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KCarGuy
Well-known member
I used some CSST for the run between my house and my Garage.
I used black pipe inside both stuctures and once outside, used a 90 and a shutoff.
I had picked up a roll of the orange heavy duty plastic tubing that the county uses for direct burial from a friend, and my CSST slid inside that.
I ran that underground. then used 8" of sand around it, before filling the ditch back up.
I also used CSST for the small whip from my Gas Heater in my Garage (about 20")
But, rented a Tripod and a threader for my Black Pipe inside the house and garage.
Its been in place and use now for 6 years or so.
I used black pipe inside both stuctures and once outside, used a 90 and a shutoff.
I had picked up a roll of the orange heavy duty plastic tubing that the county uses for direct burial from a friend, and my CSST slid inside that.
I ran that underground. then used 8" of sand around it, before filling the ditch back up.
I also used CSST for the small whip from my Gas Heater in my Garage (about 20")
But, rented a Tripod and a threader for my Black Pipe inside the house and garage.
Its been in place and use now for 6 years or so.
My house was a foreclosure and when i got it there was about 40 ft of CSST ran from the basement, through the wall into the garage where a heater used to be. I had to get and install the fittings myself, and i used it for my garage heater. All is well, no leaks, easy to connect to the heater (cuz its flexible) but in the back of my head i always wish i had black pipe instead. It's just safer. I dont really trust the fittings, too much room for error if you dont know what you're doing. Also, if you use CSST, you need to ground the pipe to the house with a special hanger, one that my local menards does not carry. This is supposedly meant to prevent pipe damage from lightning strikes.
If the line wasnt already there, i wouldnt have used CSST. Natural gas is NOT something to go the cheap or easy route on.
If the line wasnt already there, i wouldnt have used CSST. Natural gas is NOT something to go the cheap or easy route on.