Appliance repair guy headache

[Jim greengo]

Got called over across the bridge a month or so ago about an outlet that an appliance guy/warrantee co told the homeowner was dead,and needed to be replaced.
They said it was the reason her new fridge wasnt working.
So I went over and checked it,had power but outlet was worn out/cord fit loose.
Anyway I popped it out and discovered it was a grounded type outlet,but the house was built back in 40s-50s I'm guessing and theres no ground wire in the romex.
So I put a gfi in place of it,and plugged the fridge in and it worked fine.
Warrantee guys did a follow up and told her it cant be on a gfi.
I told her son that theres a reason they put a grounded cord on that refrigerator, and I cant put a grounded outlet on a non grounded circuit,so it needs gfi protection.
The gfi I installed is off to the side of fridge by a foot or so,so it's not like it's out of site if it trips.
I'm going to try and swing by there tomorrow and measure over to the sink.
I might call the city inspector over there tomorrow to see what he thinks of the situation, I dont want to be standing there without a chair when the music stops! Hahaha

 

[Dagny]

Do nothing.

 

[nadogail]

I read about 30 years ago that refrigerator’s should not be installed on a GFCI outlet because the allowable leakage current on the self defroster heater is sufficient to trip a GFCI. When I wire a refrigerator I put them on a single outlet dedicated circuit.

It has been more than 30 years since I studied this and the code has been revised at least twice.

 

[jbfsr]

I've seen some old wiring where they would take the ground of the romex and wrap it around the cable where it enters the box under the clamp. It then grounds the whole box. Something to check.

 

[Meursault74]

"I'm guessing and theres no ground wire in the romex."


Did you check if there was ground by checking voltage from hot to metal box?

If no ground, could you install a two-prong outlet and then show them a 3 prong to two prong adapter?

If should be "grandfathered" in if there is no ground. If there was no ground to begin with then what's the difference?

The chance of their food going bad due to a tripped outlet is of greatest concern I think.

 

[Norcal]

"I'm guessing and theres no ground wire in the romex."


Did you check if there was ground by checking voltage from hot to metal box?

If no ground, could you install a two-prong outlet and then show them a 3 prong to two prong adapter?

If should be "grandfathered" in if there is no ground. If there was no ground to begin with then what's the difference?

The chance of their food going bad due to a tripped outlet is of greatest concern I think.

Only if the appliance is defective, and then it is doing it's job. A professional installing a non grounding receptacle & using a adapter is jeopardizing their license, and if something happens a slimy lawyer is going to own them, a GFCI is a code compliant repair, the best way is a new circuit but that triggers AFCI requirements & may now require a GFCI anyway.

 

[Meursault74]

Only if the appliance is defective, and then it is doing it's job. A professional installing a non grounding receptacle & using a adapter is jeopardizing their license, and if something happens a slimy lawyer is going to own them, a GFCI is a code compliant repair, the best way is a new circuit but that triggers AFCI requirements & may now require a GFCI anyway.

If the outlet is not grounded then shouldn't it have been a two prong outlet in the first place? If it really isn't grounded then the grounding socket is doing nothing in the outlet that was there. I asked why an original two prong outlet could be put back. If the homeowner uses an adapter to make their 'fridge work there it's on them and in practical terms is would be the same condition had that "loose" outlet been tighter.

GFCI on refrigerators and "code compliant" as a way to make money has been hashed out here many times, who needs those discussions?

 

[paulsomlo]

A GFI on a fridge? Sure...until they go away for a month and it trips while they're gone.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Got called over across the bridge a month or so ago about an outlet that an appliance guy/warrantee co told the homeowner was dead,and needed to be replaced.
They said it was the reason her new fridge wasnt working.
So I went over and checked it,had power but outlet was worn out/cord fit loose.
Anyway I popped it out and discovered it was a grounded type outlet,but the house was built back in 40s-50s I'm guessing and theres no ground wire in the romex.
So I put a gfi in place of it,and plugged the fridge in and it worked fine.
Warrantee guys did a follow up and told her it cant be on a gfi.
I told her son that theres a reason they put a grounded cord on that refrigerator, and I cant put a grounded outlet on a non grounded circuit,so it needs gfi protection.
The gfi I installed is off to the side of fridge by a foot or so,so it's not like it's out of site if it trips.
I'm going to try and swing by there tomorrow and measure over to the sink.
I might call the city inspector over there tomorrow to see what he thinks of the situation, I dont want to be standing there without a chair when the music stops! Hahaha

Why would you call the inspector over? Was a permit pulled for this work?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I read about 30 years ago that refrigerator’s should not be installed on a GFCI outlet because the allowable leakage current on the self defroster heater is sufficient to trip a GFCI. When I wire a refrigerator I put them on a single outlet dedicated circuit.

It has been more than 30 years since I studied this and the code has been revised at least twice.

If GFCI is required in the location the fridge is at a single outlet non-GFCI circuit is not code permissive anymore to get around the GFCI requirement

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I've seen some old wiring where they would take the ground of the romex and wrap it around the cable where it enters the box under the clamp. It then grounds the whole box. Something to check.

Thats not Romex (brand of NM made by southwire) nor is it NM. It’s BX which was replaced with AC cable...

 

[Jim greengo]

Why would you call the inspector over? Was a permit pulled for this work?

No,I'm going to call his office there in cb and ask him.
Theres no permit for repair work under $500.00

 

[Jim greengo]

I've seen some old wiring where they would take the ground of the romex and wrap it around the cable where it enters the box under the clamp. It then grounds the whole box. Something to check.

No ,problem is theres no ground wire.

 

[Jim greengo]

Only if the appliance is defective, and then it is doing it's job. A professional installing a non grounding receptacle & using a adapter is jeopardizing their license, and if something happens a slimy lawyer is going to own them, a GFCI is a code compliant repair, the best way is a new circuit but that triggers AFCI requirements & may now require a GFCI anyway.

Thank you.

 

[sparky 1971]

Thats not Romex (brand of NM made by southwire) nor is it NM. It’s BX which was replaced with AC cable...

I've seen what he means. It's the old romex with the 16 gauge ground wire. It's almost like the old timers didn't know what to with the ground, so they wrapped it around the clamping screw inside the box sometimes the end of the jacket and then clamp the whole thing down. Then, they would install a two prong receptacle. It was the boxes like the photo with 16d nails driven through them into the studs.

 

[sparky 1971]

Just tell them that's a code compliant installation. NEC 406.4(D)2(b) . Or, you could put a two prong receptacle in and walk away from it. If they choose to use an adapter, that's their problem. You could also install a ground wire, but I effing hate doing that. Of course, if the outlet is on the countertop or within 6' of the sink, it has to be GFCI protected since you went and dicked around with it.